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960 B6304 catalytic delete - drama or no drama?

FreeEMSFred

Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2009
Location
Kiwiland
I guess it's old enough to not give a flying f*ck? But would like to confirm before I remove and sell the cat out of my 960 wagon and replace it with a 3" straight through muffler.

I guess the chances are I can just unplug the sensor and it'll not be bothered? But if anyone has any positive or negative experience doing similar with the later EFI system these run or any advice on the topic, I'm keen to hear it :-)
 
I would try unplugging the downstream sensor first and see if it throws a code. If not I guess you are free to do whatever. If it does throw a code you'll have to use a spacer or two to pull the sensor out of the exhaust stream to fool it.

Is this for a race car? Or do you not have inspections there?

My county does not do anything but the most basic visual inspection. If you have a cat and one muffler you pass. There's no smog test or plugging in to the OBD port where I live, but I still need a cat if the car originally came with one.
 
Also, don't the 960's have 2 cats? I seem to remember that.


If so the downstream O2 would be after the 1st cat, but before the second. You could at least delete the second cat with no problems.
 
I’m not sure how converter recycling works in kiwiland, but those are ~$700 usd in our area. A new mid pipe with cats is $250-300.
You’re engine doesn’t make enough power to make removing them worth anything power wise.
 
It has been too long for me to remember just what issues a bad sensor cause with a 960. It was enough that I replaced the sensor. The sensor is how the ECU trims the mixture. I would not recommend deleting it.
 
It has been too long for me to remember just what issues a bad sensor cause with a 960. It was enough that I replaced the sensor. The sensor is how the ECU trims the mixture. I would not recommend deleting it.

Up stream sensor can't be deleted at all. Unless you are running a standalone, but then this wouldn't be a question....
 
This will depend on what vintage your 960 is and whether Kiwiville adopted the OBDII standard (or whether Volvo made a version specifically for non OBDII markets).

If your car is non OBDII, you just have a primary O2 sensor and removal of the converter should not generate any error codes. The exhaust will have an acrid stink and burn your eyes because of the NOx compounds which are no longer being cleaned up. If your car is OBDII compliant you will generate an error code indicating converter problems. If you also remove the secondary (after cat) O2 sensor you will generate at least a couple of different secondary sensor related error codes. The car should remain operable.
 
If it does have two sensors you can use a spacer for the post-cat o2 and avoid error codes, or at least it works on my '99 SAAB. And yes the exhaust stinks.
 
Thanks everyone - appreciate all the input! Good point re pulling and seeing what goes on.

Some 960s only have one sensor. They are a single cat with 2 inlets, one outlet.

This, exactly this. In detail:

2x 60mm pipes from the manifold down under the drivers floor to the right of the driveshaft and merging into the cat with a multi wire O2 sensor that I'd definitely keep in the FRONT of that cat right in the middle in the merger of the 2 60mm pipes. A single wire sensor is on the output of it. Then out of the cat is a single 60mm or maybe even 58mm but it might be deformed. That gets quite heavily squashed as it goes under the cross member that sits just in front of the fuel tank on the opposite side.

My next question, and I'll just reuse this thread rather than spamming another one, is what people do with 3" exhausts under these things:

There is 70mm from the compressed part of the cross member (welded in one) where it's ribbed presumably to minimise heat transfer to the bottom of the existing tube which is lower than anything else under the car. So say we left 5mm above then we'd still be 5mm even lower and more likely to scrape on things than with the stock exhaust.

Does anyone put a holesaw through that cross member and weld something in to give some air gap and allow a full 3" without contact and without going lower than stock, or maybe even a bit HIGHER than stock?

To the person that cynically said "it doesn't make enough power" this is not about power, here's what I'm doing with all of my cars:

1. Cat delete and sell - money funds mufflers and bends and tube to replace and upgrade
2. Install only 3" straight through parts ready for later power upgrades

Eg I had a rusty falling apart muffler fail inspection on my Stagea wagon and it got a 3" section with cheap stainless muffler and cone-step up BEFORE the vband coupling at the front and cone step down AFTER the vband coupling at the rear. Pretty soon I'll order the new rear muffler for that car and all I have to do is cut the vband flange off the old rear muffler and fabricate the new 3" stuff to go in there and mate up and not rattle.

Cats aren't going to be worth the money they are now forever, EVs are coming and coming fast, as soon as demand falls cats will lose their value to some extent unless something outside car manufacture produces demand. So I want to cash them all in ASAP and upgrade what I can at the same time on all the cars I have big upgrades for.

For the 960 wagon, tomorrow night I'm bringing home a slightly grubby but smooth running2004 B6294T wrapped in a fairly clean by deregistered (plates no longer live, a bit expensive to get live again) XC90 - it won't be going in for a while and expect more n00b questions on internals and limits thereof and various engine details in future, but the goal is, once the car is sorted chassis wise and interior wise, to upgrade the trans a bit with a shift kit and maybe manualise it, and drop that or something based off that in. 270hp stock, but cams/coldside/hotside will push that north of 400@crank without even raising the boost.

So yes, 3" will be justified, and I'm forward-looking in all the changes I make to all of my cars. :-)
 
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The 960 has a terribly restrictive exhaust. Those pipes aren't 60mm. They are double walled and much smaller on the inside.

You'll want to replace everything up to the manifolds, and if greater than 250 crank HP is a goal, you'll want some headers instead of the stock manifolds.

I would likely go for a dual 2.5 inch system. Or at least two pipes until the middle of the car then merge into one after that if it's easier.

BMW headers FTW. https://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=167190
 
Oh also you aren't really going to make a lot of power without a standalone ecu. The trans ecu cuts torque at shift points. and engine ecu doesn't run right without the trans ecu.

The only cams are made for a lazy grandpa power curve. The intake is crazy and restrictive. The exhaust is restrictive.

What this car does well is run smoothly and quietly and pulls away from a stop light with some torque so that grandpa can say "it's peppy".......
 
engine ecu doesn't run right without the trans ecu.
I've done a couple of manual conversions to both 1.8 and 4.4 Motronics(mostly while doing a swap in to a 200/700) and haven't noticed anything special. Performance and economy has been as I would expect.
 
I've done a couple of manual conversions to both 1.8 and 4.4 Motronics(mostly while doing a swap in to a 200/700) and haven't noticed anything special. Performance and economy has been as I would expect.

Doesn't it lock in the timing or something like that? Like a 1st gear static timing?
 
Doesn't it lock in the timing or something like that? Like a 1st gear static timing?
Nope. Only difference is that auto ECU has a torque limiter function that retards ignition on gear shifts. It is activated by a signal from TCU. Without the TCU the auto ECU works same way as a manual one would.
 
"Those pipes aren't 60mm. They are double walled and much smaller on the inside. " < WTF are you smoking? :-D at some point, maybe soon, I will categorically prove this wrong. Have you ever driven with an undersized exhaust on any engine? Guessing not. I have, several times in various ways :-D

"Oh also you aren't really going to make a lot of power without a standalone ecu." have you seen my effing username??? I run the ones I designed from scratch and wrote most of the firmware for ;-)

"The trans ecu cuts torque at shift points." < it's trivial to fully manualise these transmissions.

"The only cams are made for a lazy grandpa power curve. The intake is crazy and restrictive. The exhaust is restrictive." - I'll put whatever profile I feel like in my build when I do it - the hot side will be custom fabricated by me - this is NOT my first rodeo. Cold side, not sure, but "crazy restrictive" sounds like the words of someone who never made extra power out of a bone stock engine with boost and/or cams leveraging only the excellent head design.

"What this car does well is run smoothly and quietly and pulls away from a stop light with some torque so that grandpa can say" mine pulls to redline okay - maybe your American market 2 cat variety does not? Wouldn't be the first car crippled by the legal system there.

I retract my gratitude for you, HiSPL. And if SPL stands for Sound Pressure Level then that explains everything :-D

Meet my donor engine stand:

FFWoNg7UUAgQMnS



Made by Ford in Sweden, goes well in the 2.2 tonne Ford, should propel the much (700kg) lighter 960 even better esp with cam and bigger turbo and 3" straight through :-)

I took some photos for this thread the other day, so here they are:

FFQ6v-EVEAUjpsF


FFQ7RFqUcAMigCW


FFQ6tHvVQAAa2Fn




<3 Lankku. That is all.
 
The 960 has a terribly restrictive exhaust. Those pipes aren't 60mm. They are double walled and much smaller on the inside.

You'll want to replace everything up to the manifolds, and if greater than 250 crank HP is a goal, you'll want some headers instead of the stock manifolds.

I would likely go for a dual 2.5 inch system. Or at least two pipes until the middle of the car then merge into one after that if it's easier.

BMW headers FTW. https://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=167190

He's right, I didn't believe my brother when he told me at first too, but the downpipes have a smaller diameter pipe inside, kid you not. Crazy swede's

As for cams there are several versions, early non-emmisions ones had 205hp, with the later ones being 195hp IIRC. Neither are epic, cat cams sells a set that are much better, however the split head design makes this quite involved. A lot of euro drifters run a t6 head on the b6304 block to get the best of both worlds with decent cams and displacement.
 
Not exactly sure where the incredulity is coming from. Every thing I said is true. You never said anything about turbo or standalone in your original post. I'm just letting you know a few things about the B6304 since I've owned two, and you were asking.

The Original ECU is technically tunable, but nobody that I'm aware of has written any files or tables for it. They've only done that for the 5 cylinder running 4.4.

I do know that you are involved with some kind of ECU business. Hence the statement, "You won't make good power without a standalone". Because even if you ferret out everything you need to make 4.4 do what you want, it's still limited in what it can do. You should already know this. A standalone is the easiest and best way to make more power for htis motor. You however didn't mention anything about doing a standalone.

I don't know why it's so hard to believe that the exhaust is restrictive. It's well documented. It's double walled stainless to keep the noise down in the cabin. So even if you did replace the Cat with a piece of 3" tubing you still wouldn't gain anything. You have to replace the entire exhaust including the manifolds.

Also the upside down octopus intake is designed to keep the noise down more than anything else. It works fine for a stock car, but it won't flow any more air than that. If you put a turbo on this motor, the intake will become your next bottleneck.


Here's your "60mm" exhaust cut open.
KhOU4Fc.jpg
 
All I'm trying to say is this: The B6304 is a fantastic starting block for a hot rod motor. Unfortunately almost everything attached to it from stock is not usable for going beyond stock HP levels. If you throw all that stuff away and start fresh with a new intake, exhaust, and ECU you will be miles ahead. Don't throw good money after bad. Just strip the thing and build it right from the start.
 
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