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Old 10-13-2020, 02:43 PM   #1
thelostartof
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Default 1993 240 Cranks, almost starts and then dies

Ok so helping a friend with this one.

I am open to idea's.

1993 240, The car had a HG done about 5-10 miles ago, it ran fine and when they went to restart this issue came up and it has not run in a few years.

Spark has been verified on all cyl, timing looks to flash between 10-0 when connected to #1.
Rotor points to mark on distributor
Crank is set at zero (validated with piston movement) and cam gear is at zero.
Compression is the same across all 4cyl (meausing around 160 on my 12 year old HF guage so it can be low)
Car has around 1/2 tank of fuel (5gal of it is fresh fuel I just added)

I need to validate int shaft is at zero along with remove cam bolt and make sure roll pin did not sheer.

With carb cleaner the car will not start, it actually feels more like the engine is flooded or being flooded.

With all of the injectors disconnected and cranking the car will fire but not spin fast enough to keep running and then just die, after that it will not fire again for a few min. Typically if i reconnect the injectors and crank it will do the same fire and then die . With the injectors connected the engine will shake like crazy like it is firing but not. With the injectors disconnected after enough cranks it stops doing this and just barely moves while cranking.

The trans has not been removed as far as I know so the flexplate should be correct, RPM sensor is a new unit.
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Old 10-13-2020, 02:46 PM   #2
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If I was experiencing what you are, I would swap in a known good CPS. The behavior sounds just like a bad crank sensor. New does not equal good. It will take you less than 10 minutes to eliminate that possibility.
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Old 10-13-2020, 02:52 PM   #3
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Have you tried starting fluid? The crank sensor controls spark and fuel. Usually you lose both but I’ve seen them lose one or the other. Check the injector pulse with a led or noide light
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Old 10-13-2020, 02:56 PM   #4
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Have you tried starting fluid? The crank sensor controls spark and fuel. Usually you lose both but I’ve seen them lose one or the other. Check the injector pulse with a led or noide light
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Originally Posted by 2manyturbos View Post
If I was experiencing what you are, I would swap in a known good CPS. The behavior sounds just like a bad crank sensor. New does not equal good. It will take you less than 10 minutes to eliminate that possibility.
Two things on my list to check and test, and help validate my next steps. I do need to find that noide light test set i have around here someplace.

Thank you

And it is a 240 so it takes me about 15-20 to get the crank sensor out vs the 5 min in a 7/9, stupid fire wall. I just did a crank sensor ona 240 last weekend and I finally had to use the trick of rtv on the bolt to keep it from falling out of the socket, never had to do that until 240 crank sensor.
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Old 10-13-2020, 03:03 PM   #5
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You don't necessarily lose spark or fuel with a bad CPS. I've been through this too many times. I have bought several 2/7/9 cars that were worked on for weeks by shops and individuals because they believed the CPS either works or it doesn't. The first time through this drill I spent 3-4 hours over several days checking everything under the sun trying to figure out a no start situation when the car had both spark and fuel. When I bought it the car started right up and I drove it on to my trailer. The people were shocked. They had $1,100 in receipts from various shops trying to fix the issue. It had been towed home 4-5 times. It started right up to unload it as well. Then, it would not start again. It acted just like the car this post is about. It had consistent spark and fuel, yet, would only sputter, or, start and run for a few seconds and as soon as it was put in gear it would stall. I threw a CPS in it because it just didn't make sense the car would not stay running. Done. It ran perfect. I recognize the symptoms in about 5-10 minutes now. I think I've had 6-10 LH 2.4 cars do this now. It's worth the 10 minutes it takes to rule out a bad sensor.
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Old 10-13-2020, 03:06 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thelostartof View Post
Two things on my list to check and test, and help validate my next steps. I do need to find that noide light test set i have around here someplace.

Thank you

And it is a 240 so it takes me about 15-20 to get the crank sensor out vs the 5 min in a 7/9, stupid fire wall. I just did a crank sensor ona 240 last weekend and I finally had to use the trick of rtv on the bolt to keep it from falling out of the socket, never had to do that until 240 crank sensor.
Masking tape around the edge of the bolt with one complete wrap around the socket. BTDT. Long extension straight down the fire wall. The bolt will pull out of the socket easily since it is just the edge that is held by the tape. You can even buy a magnetic socket for just this purpose.
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Old 10-13-2020, 03:49 PM   #7
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Ok videos are being uploaded now.

RPM sensor swapped into the 1994 945T i just put an engine in and that car started up fine and ran for the next 15min without any issues. Turned on the a/c and drove it around the dirt lot. The rpm sensor that was in the 1994 945T (known working for at least the last 2 weeks I have been driving this car around my yard) installed into the 240 and the 240 will still not start. So the 240's rpm sensor runs fine in another car, and the other known RPM sensor has the same issues in the 240.

I noticed a hissing sound coming from the exhaust side of the engine after I have stopped cranking the engine, Once the starter stops spinning you should be able to hear it in this video clip, this hissing lasts for around 5 seconds after the engine stops cranking.


In this clip you can see how the engine will start but not stay running. Like I said I have a few more things I still need to validate once it is not so hot outside. Also notice that the injectors are disconnected when cranking. I had previously had the injectors connected and it fired and died, this video was taken right after I unplugged the injectors from not cranking.


On my list is still remove the intake piping and check for a blockage of somekind along with maybe clean the TB just because it will be semi easy to do.
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Old 10-13-2020, 04:52 PM   #8
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Check the rotor is fully engaged on the shaft and hasn't sheared the tab. That did some wonky stuff on the 140.
Put your timing light on the coil wire while cranking, make sure you have a consistent spark from it. That will ID a crank sensor and wiring being functional, but it will also confirm the coil is actually doing something, ruling out coil, wiring to it, ignition switch, etc.
Have you pulled the valve cover yet? Might be worth checking that you don't have a stuck follower, slipped shim, broken spring, etc., especially since it sat after whatever happened then, plus the head having been off. Granted you'd think the issues would show on a comp test, but it's worth a look.
Fuel pressure good? Just because the pumps are running doesn't mean a damned thing. Low pressure could cause a no start and flooding. If it's flooded, carb cleaner won't help either, especially if the plugs are fouled.
Have you tried starting it with the MAF unplugged yet? Might need throttle to start up and stay running.
Coolant temp sensor...head was off. Did it get swapped? Is it the correct one? Is it plugged in? Is the resistance good on both sides?
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Old 10-13-2020, 05:44 PM   #9
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Cap and rotor were checked and look and feel good. The tab is not sheered. I will get the timing light on the Coil, but like I said for sure spark out of the coil (tested with a spark plug connected and grounded), same for all 4 plug wires look to be getting spark with the same test.

Pulling the valve cover is on my list as like you said a missing shim or two, along with the wrong shim might cause issues, I will check.

No idea on fuel pressure, I still have yet to find a good way to actually test fuel pressure on these cars. I think this rail is a late model so I should have an adapter for the schrader valve on it. I will check and validate.

MAF has been plugged in and unplugged along with injectors in various states while testing, along with giving it some to none to all the throttle's.

No idea on the ECT, I will put a meter on it either at the ECU and then at the sensor once I get the intake piping off the car and out of the way. That could be another cause of the flooding. I will have to check codes as that is one thing I have not done yet.

This one has by far the most complicated no start I have come across so far as this one starts but not long enough to actually start and die as you can see from the videos.
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Old 10-13-2020, 07:07 PM   #10
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Does it stay running on brake cleaner?
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Old 10-13-2020, 07:17 PM   #11
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I'd measure, or swap, the plug wires. And try the timing light on the coil wire pointing at the cam gear -- I think it should show the timing mark evenly at 12-3-6-9 o'clock positions.
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Old 10-13-2020, 07:48 PM   #12
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So a little more work done, I found a small set of 3 holes in the intake hose and a missing air filter. So air filter added and then the intake hose was taped up and no more leaks.

At the same time I removed the crank pulley and validated the crank gear, cam gear and int were timed correct, along with the cam roll pins not being sheered.

With this work done the few times the car wants to start it seems to run another second longer before it stops.

On carb cleaner the car will not run at all, it acts the same way as with the injectors connected or disconnected.

Fuel pressure is a rock solid 44psi while cranking.

Next steps are going to be removing the intake manifold and checking the gasket and sealing surface along with checking the valves. At the same time it will get a valve cover gasket as the current one is missing and makes a horrible mess while cranking.

It almost feels like there might be a huge Intake leak that is causing it to not fire. This might explain the hiss after cranking.

With the timing light on the coil wire I get a very constant spark. These plug wires look good but I might have a spare set here someplace.

I might take a few days off as I will need to get help pushing the car closer to the shop in the shade.
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Old 10-14-2020, 01:23 AM   #13
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Have you thought about draining all the gas out of the gas tank (then swirl in a gallon and drain it out - see any crud? clean the filter sock on the tank pump), pumping out what's in the fuel lines, putting in a new fuel filter, then if the gas tank is clean of crud put in 5 gals of fresh gas?
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Old 10-14-2020, 01:29 AM   #14
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No air filter for 2 yrs? Once mice made a big nest in my air filter box while the 245 sat for months. When I tried to start it the nest was sucked into the AMM and NO Start! Took a lot of cleaning. Now I never start a car which has been sitting without opening the AF box to check for varmints.
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Old 10-14-2020, 02:09 PM   #15
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Definitely worth the valve check and intake check. Check that ECT while you have the intake off. I've seen someone put a 2.2 sensor on a 2.4 car, not quite the same ranges.
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Old 10-14-2020, 02:48 PM   #16
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Quote:
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Definitely worth the valve check and intake check. Check that ECT while you have the intake off. I've seen someone put a 2.2 sensor on a 2.4 car, not quite the same ranges.
They are not even the same design. An LH 2.2 sensor in an LH 2.4 system will make the engine flood almost instantly.
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Old 10-14-2020, 03:40 PM   #17
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For some reason I remember them being physically the same, but resistance being a good bit off for both legs.
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Old 10-14-2020, 03:48 PM   #18
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For some reason I remember them being physically the same, but resistance being a good bit off for both legs.
Totally different design. The LH 2.2 is a single circuit, terminal in, terminal out. The LH 2.4 is two separate circuits using the brass body to complete each circuit to ground.
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Old 10-14-2020, 11:13 PM   #19
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That is great to know, I will not only check readings but also part numbers and ask the owner if they replaced that part while it was out.
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Old 10-14-2020, 11:20 PM   #20
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Good info, thanks Roy!
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Old 10-15-2020, 02:12 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyturbos View Post
Masking tape around the edge of the bolt with one complete wrap around the socket. BTDT. Long extension straight down the fire wall. The bolt will pull out of the socket easily since it is just the edge that is held by the tape. You can even buy a magnetic socket for just this purpose.
Leaving the said socket or wrench on a large magnet(over night?) should magnetize it long enough to do a job like that as well.

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Old 10-15-2020, 02:21 AM   #22
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Quote:
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Totally different design. The LH 2.2 is a single circuit, terminal in, terminal out. The LH 2.4 is two separate circuits using the brass body to complete each circuit to ground.
Yep. On LH2.4, the EZK box measures temp thru ONE of the terminals to ground, and the LH box measures thru the other terminal to ground. On LH2.2, only one box measures rez thru the TWO terminals.

Lostartof, it should stay running on PULSES of brake cleaner IF the mechanical and the ignition is intact. There has obviously been some tampering with the car, which makes diag more difficult.

We drive 6.0 Litre trucks into the shop with dead fuel pumps: one man is the Wheel Man, and the other man is Can Man (rides on the upper radiator support) and he bursts pulses of brake cleaner into the throttle body. Why push a truck?!




Do you have a smoke machine? We just got a high pressure Redline smoke machine that kicks ass. At just a couple PSI, smoke can envelop you and the engine bay from a small air leak. I know you used to run a homebrew pressure tester cap in the intake hose and do soapy water tests. It could be airleaks, I had a no start after a HG install just from a loose hose clamp at the throttle body.



Triple check the spark plug wires and that the dist was dropped in correctly. It sounds like a timing issue!

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Old 11-08-2020, 07:13 PM   #23
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Ok figured it out, it runs fine now



Anyone want to guess what the issue was?

It took a lot of testing and cranking to figure out something crazy simple that I have never seen.
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Old 11-08-2020, 10:33 PM   #24
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Definitely curious.
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Old 11-08-2020, 10:54 PM   #25
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Exhaust was clogged. When you first start it the engine will fire and die as there is to much pressure build up. Once it first fires or you crank it a lot the pressure builds up and keeps it from firing again.


So being that I couldn't disconnect the cat as someone welded a new one on we had to undo the 3 bolts are the manifold. Turn key and it starts and runs great time and time again.

Myself I have never seen an exhaust this clogged in my life but I guess a first time for everything.
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