home register FAQ memberlist calendar

Go Back   Turbobricks Forums > Mechanical > performance & modifications

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-14-2020, 09:22 AM   #1
VolvoGLT
Board Member
 
VolvoGLT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vienna, Austria
Default sway bar combinations

Which combo (front/rear) do you prefer on a 244?

23mm/21mm
21mm/21mm
21mm/19mm
23mm/19mm
VolvoGLT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2020, 10:28 AM   #2
ams
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Default

This is something I have long not understood. When I setup a car (car, not a truck) I usually want to error on the side of oversteer. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=oversteer+...resdefault.jpg

To that end, on my 245 I went with the IPD Aluminum skid plate:
https://www.ipdusa.com/products/5197...240-ipd-106365
That did a great job tightening up the front end.
25mm Sway bar front and stock (19) rear.
It makes for a very well balanced car with a touch of oversteer.

Another thing I have also done in the past is lowered front springs and overload rear springs which shifts the weight to be more on the front tires giving them more say in which direction the car is headed giving it better feel, and control.

On some setups I have completely removed the rear sway bar to help the rear end to sit more on the sides of the tires and slide around when you want it to. I have had my Porsche 911 Setup like this for ~7 years. Makes for a fantastic drive.

All that to say, IPD was very hesitant to sell me only the front 25mm sway bar and not the rear one, too.
This is the part I do no understand. Why would they want to force you back into an understeer setup?

Does that all make sense?

Andrew
ams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2020, 10:55 AM   #3
Arn02
Board Member
 
Arn02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Amsterdam, NL
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ams View Post
This is something I have long not understood. When I setup a car (car, not a truck) I usually want to error on the side of oversteer. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=oversteer+...resdefault.jpg

To that end, on my 245 I went with the IPD Aluminum skid plate:
https://www.ipdusa.com/products/5197...240-ipd-106365
That did a great job tightening up the front end.
25mm Sway bar front and stock (19) rear.
It makes for a very well balanced car with a touch of oversteer.

Another thing I have also done in the past is lowered front springs and overload rear springs which shifts the weight to be more on the front tires giving them more say in which direction the car is headed giving it better feel, and control.

On some setups I have completely removed the rear sway bar to help the rear end to sit more on the sides of the tires and slide around when you want it to. I have had my Porsche 911 Setup like this for ~7 years. Makes for a fantastic drive.

All that to say, IPD was very hesitant to sell me only the front 25mm sway bar and not the rear one, too.
This is the part I do no understand. Why would they want to force you back into an understeer setup?

Does that all make sense?

Andrew
I have exactly this set up for my 242: 25/19. With Lesjofors lowering springs and red Koni's.
__________________
Ambitious but rubbish.

The 245 GT

The Euromurican
Arn02 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2020, 11:46 AM   #4
VolvoGLT
Board Member
 
VolvoGLT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vienna, Austria
Default

You're sure you don't have things backwards? Usually a larger front bar induces understeer and larger rear bar oversteer.
Car will have 40mm lowering springs and GAZ adjustable shocks if that makes a difference.
VolvoGLT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2020, 01:53 PM   #5
shoestring
Board Member
 
shoestring's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Swampscott, 01907
Default

I have 23/21 on my daily 245 with stock springs and struts/shocks. Better than the stock 21/19 or 21/16 or whatever it was.

Our 245 LeMons car has 23/16, cut springs and cheap shocks/struts. Small bar to help it hook up in the rear. I guess it helps? Car handles well and "punches well above its weight".
__________________
I AM THE MODAL AMERICAN. Planet money #936.
shoestring is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2020, 04:45 PM   #6
klr142
Turbo, what?
 
klr142's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: OR
Default

That depends.
klr142 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2020, 04:53 PM   #7
2manyturbos
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monroe, OR USA
Default

To a degree it depends on the set up. In general terms, VolvoGLT has it correct with his statement. "You're sure you don't have things backwards? Usually a larger front bar induces understeer and larger rear bar oversteer."

There are too many other factors to take into account in order to just give a a bar size to run. The spring rates front and rear are the biggest factor. Damping rates come into the mix next. Camber and toe also affect understeer/oversteer. Then, you have contact patch area front and rear. So many things to consider.

I don't do anything performance wise with 240s. Kyle is a good reference for these questions.
2manyturbos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2020, 07:09 PM   #8
lummert
Board Member
 
lummert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Portland IN
Default

23/19.

Running 24/19 on my 88 765
__________________
Trying to understand stupid people is like trying to pick up a turd by the clean end.
lummert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2020, 07:36 PM   #9
klr142
Turbo, what?
 
klr142's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: OR
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VolvoGLT View Post
You're sure you don't have things backwards? Usually a larger front bar induces understeer and larger rear bar oversteer.
Car will have 40mm lowering springs and GAZ adjustable shocks if that makes a difference.
You are correct. Sorry for the short answer before, I was short on time and it’s really about personal preference.

Of the combos you listed, I would probably run the 23/21 combo. Your springs sound like some off the shelf lowering springs, so that means the spring rate will not likely be anything special. Increase your cars handling performance by adding more roll stiffness without much noticeable ride quality penalty by putting on the largest anti-swaybars you can. You are talking about factory parts here, so nothing is “too aggressive”.

People who suggest running a smaller rear swaybar usually do it because it can help increase inside rear wheel traction. This lets you apply power to accelerate out of the turns sooner. Aka, it can be faster, assuming the car doesn’t “push”/understeer so badly it’s actually slower.

If you feel you have too much inside wheel spin, you can quickly and easily slap your factory rear bar back on and see if you like that better. Personally, I like the more athletic feeling car that a larger rear swaybar brings, but I also have a limited slip differential and Ben’s roll correction parts for the front suspension. My car is also lowered more, though.

For what it’s worth, I’ve run 25/25 and all sorts of smaller combinations. Right now I have a 25/22 setup but feel like I want a 25 rear bar again. Maybe one day. Or I’ll play with spring rates.

To help rear wheel traction/rear axle articulation, make sure you don’t have Polyurethane lower trailing arm bushings, or torque rod bushings.
klr142 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2020, 03:29 AM   #10
VolvoGLT
Board Member
 
VolvoGLT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vienna, Austria
Default

Thanks for the replies so far! Springs are off the shelf TA Technix with a linear rate (but don't know how much). Will be using Ben's spherical trailing arm bushings and roll center correction arms (when they are back in stock) - so articulation of the rear axle is not compromised.
VolvoGLT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2020, 10:23 AM   #11
klr142
Turbo, what?
 
klr142's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: OR
Default

Sounds like a great setup. You won’t know what works for you until you try it! If you want to go to the track, some tracks may want a different swaybar than another.

Again, I would go with the still small, factory turbo setup of 23/21mm.
klr142 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2020, 01:25 PM   #12
mikep
The MP
 
mikep's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: 38° 27' N 75° 29' W
Default

With 300ish wheel rate, I like 23/19 on the street.
For rallycross with similar rates, I like no bars, or add a skinny front or rear depending on how ill it is handling and whether I want to change springs (I sometimes went to 400 front)
For stock springs, IPD can be a big help.
For super stiff springs and a smooth road/race track, IPD are probably great.
That said, I have never been a fan of the rear bar set up.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by leecatd8209 View Post
Being dead has a funny way of messing up your small business, too.
mikep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2020, 01:42 PM   #13
blkaplan
50 shades of beige
 
blkaplan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Rockville, MD
Default

23/16 on my DD
__________________
www.BEIGEPOWER.com
Kaplhenke Racing Facebook
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkKratoz View Post
The only safe bet is Ben.©
blkaplan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2020, 01:55 PM   #14
VolvoGLT
Board Member
 
VolvoGLT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vienna, Austria
Default

I'll try both setups with 23mm bar then (21 and 19 rear) and see what I like best. No rallyecross, just spirited street driving ;)

@Ben: will you have the QSRC arms back in stock in the next few days or is there another delay? Thanks
VolvoGLT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2020, 02:18 PM   #15
blkaplan
50 shades of beige
 
blkaplan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Rockville, MD
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VolvoGLT View Post
I'll try both setups with 23mm bar then (21 and 19 rear) and see what I like best. No rallyecross, just spirited street driving ;)

@Ben: will you have the QSRC arms back in stock in the next few days or is there another delay? Thanks
Getting close.
blkaplan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2020, 02:27 PM   #16
redblockpowered
Board Member
 
redblockpowered's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Swampscott, MA
Default

25/19 here with Bilstein HDs and ~170lb wheel rates F/R on my 940. Could use more front roll stiffness. Tried the IPD rear bar and got sick of one tire fires everywhere.
__________________
1993 944 B230FT/M90 thread here: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=345277
2x 1991 245 B230F/M47 (LeMons car, street car)
I sell chips for LH 2.4!
redblockpowered is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2020, 03:53 PM   #17
klr142
Turbo, what?
 
klr142's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: OR
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blkaplan View Post
23/16 on my DD
With what else for suspension, LSD, what vehicle use? Stating that alone is near worthless. Come on, Ben!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by redblockpowered View Post
my 940.
Does not apply!
klr142 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2020, 05:22 PM   #18
redblockpowered
Board Member
 
redblockpowered's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Swampscott, MA
Default

Same recipe cooked differently.
redblockpowered is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2020, 10:17 PM   #19
Wilford Brimley
Is posting from the grave
 
Wilford Brimley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Marysville, wa
Default

I have 25/25 on my 9 and I have to say I'm really not fond, gonna go back to stock rear
Wilford Brimley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2020, 11:40 PM   #20
2manyturbos
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monroe, OR USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VolvoGLT View Post
Which combo (front/rear) do you prefer on a 244?

23mm/21mm
21mm/21mm
21mm/19mm
23mm/19mm
You missed a real nice combination for a street driven car. 21/23. It only came on the 1979 GT. The 79 model also had stiffer springs in the front. They drove neutral. No understeer or oversteer.
2manyturbos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2020, 02:11 AM   #21
VolvoGLT
Board Member
 
VolvoGLT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vienna, Austria
Default

I know but I only listed combinations with the 4 bars I have - no 23mm bar in my garage..
VolvoGLT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2020, 03:23 AM   #22
2manyturbos
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monroe, OR USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VolvoGLT View Post
I know but I only listed combinations with the 4 bars I have - no 23mm bar in my garage..
The 23mm bar is rare.
2manyturbos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2020, 05:24 PM   #23
GeneralBurrito
Board Member
 
GeneralBurrito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: California
Default

23/21 on my 244. With cut springs and the chassis braces my dad and I made, it's a fun car. Still wanting a wheel/tire upgrade. Too wobbly on the 14" steelies and mushy Michelin all seasons
GeneralBurrito is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2020, 06:05 PM   #24
hiperfauto
The Librarian
 
hiperfauto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: So Cal
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyturbos View Post
The 23mm bar is rare.
It may be hard to find a used one in the jy but there's 24 of them in the warehouse in Sweden. If money is no object you can have a new one.

https://www.tascaparts.com/oem-parts...er-bar-1229957
hiperfauto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2020, 03:22 PM   #25
2manyturbos
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monroe, OR USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hiperfauto View Post
It may be hard to find a used one in the jy but there's 24 of them in the warehouse in Sweden. If money is no object you can have a new one.

https://www.tascaparts.com/oem-parts...er-bar-1229957
Lol. I can hear it already. "WTF, that's more than I paid for my 240".
2manyturbos is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:23 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.