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Old 02-19-2003, 06:32 PM   #151
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You guys crack me up! I'm sorry, but not a single one of you would be wanking off about driveability or boost coming up "too fast" if you actually got a ride in the car or a chance to drive it!

"Oh no, the boost comes up too fast, the intercooler is too efficient, it's too powerful. Waaa, waaa, waaa. :cry: :cry: :cry: Oh no, it's too fast, I can't control it, uh oh, I think, (um ,erp), I'm gonna (urp) blaaaaaa! OK, I have to get in my Geo Metro now and go to yoga class.."

Ha, ha, ha, all in good fun... :D

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Old 02-19-2003, 08:02 PM   #152
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Matt, what I'm saying is, you shouldn't use an intercooler to limit how the turbo spools up... That should be up to the boost controller and nothing else... Why didn't that guy just turn the boost down? Thats the idea... You are in control (w/ the boost control)... Not a part of the intake tract...
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Old 02-19-2003, 10:19 PM   #153
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You guys crack me up
I have only improved something that was damned good to start with.
It seems ironic to me that drivability IMPROVED with the bigger I/C. I had not previously expected such a thing. It is clear that the turbo is not trying near as hard to make boost as it needed to previously. Hmmmmmm..........
Oh.....For those who are not in the know-----Where the boost comes up at is something that we plan for, and drive accordingly. This point where the boost comes up is referred to as the "Boost threshhold." In my car that is at 3000rpm's because that is exactly where I want it so that I am still in the thick of the the graph at the top end. The engine spends the whole time that it is racin' from 4000-6500, thus very little lag. It makes me giggle.
I really doubt that max power will go up to speak of until I reprogram Electromotive and turn the boost up to 28lbs or so. THAT should be amusing. We shall see if that happens before thunderhill.
The car is almost ready for Doo-Wops. Cool. 8)
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Old 02-19-2003, 10:41 PM   #154
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HAHAHAAA

Look, I'm telling you what happend with Jason. He has the ****er of a car.

The turbo he has spools up so quickly that he has to practically have slicks to be able to stay on the road. He has haltech, pretty extreme headwork (he's a machinist), huge turbo, webbed block, custom pistons, connrods, reinforced crankshaft, (basically a 4 grand block and head)... blah blah blah...

He knows that this car is not to be driven on anything but a clear day. He made a mistake one day leaving the car at work and working late one day that he had to drive it home when it was pouring. Have you ever driven a RWD car that has the crappiest rain tires you can buy on it? (ie. slicks?) one ounce of moisture under that thing and you spin spin spin.

When it "pours" in texas, it REALLY pours. Not like the drizzle in seattle or the constant drumdum of New York, but SHEETS of Rain, Horizontal Rain, Buckets Rain, you name it. I remember that paticular day that he was doing this because it rained so hard that my yard flooded up, my pool was overflowing and water was creeping up to my back AND front door... pretty amazing considering the house's built on a small hump of a hill...

anyways, he's got a M46 (which is ****ing amazing that it isnt dead yet) and he has to granny shift soooo slowly because boost goes up from 1800RPM and up... he recalled how at a stop light it took him 4 redlights to finally get traction to get across the intersection. I am inclined to believe him because I've seen what he's done to his "former" M-rods... (after all he did find the threshold of where the M-rods start compressing and bending to ****... 20PSI...) anyways, He's going 25mph max in OD because any faster and/or lower gear he'd just slip and waste gas. This is paticuarly hard when you're trying to go up "hill" on a high way ramp thats concrete ****... I've driven that way and having nearly zero traction would be **** scary.

about "part throttle"... well, thats one of the problems he has with that car... if you do anything more than a feather touch of that gas pedal (custom HUGE throttle bodies) you see 16 psi almost immediately, half way you see full boost... so feathering it is damn hard to do... like coasting man... its not quite an easy thing to stay off boost in that car man.

It IS POSSIBLE to have a turbo spool up too "quickly". To do so at such a low RPM would be great for a 1/4 mile car but all that does in the street would just spin tires. I dont paticularly understand why Jason insists driving that car at all on the street (he never dynoed it but he'd drag pretty damn fast... I forget the numbers but they were impressive 1/8 mile numbers!) Its about throttle position, where the boost spools and how much, ecetera that determines how "drivable" a car is.

Driveability is a damn subjective concept but it is almost essential when you "drive" on the street. You want to be fast but you also want to be in control. Those real "fast" cars out there, such as the corvette, M5, mercedes, etc all are extremely fast but they had done so much R&D to be able to ensure that its fast when its wanted to be fast and otherwise. Thats why you buy a expensive car

Ideally you wouldnt want a turbo to really starting to spool until 2800RPM or so and to be full boost by 3200RPM or so. That'd be very drivable off boost and on, having that mid-range torque just kick you in the nuts and have some steam left in the turbo to push you around in high RPM. Jason shifts at 4.5-5000RPM (haltech has something of a cutoff... gawd I wish i could afford one of those!) for the paticular reason of his own... that he's timed and dialed it in for that type of driving... thats his thing, low end kick-ass.

Oh yeah I've driven turbo cars. I drove the high pressure C70 thats my work is trying to get rid of for a few days... (71k mi, nearly perfect condition, damn nice car for 13.5 grand or so, quite cheap really.) and thanks to some people and no thanks to you kenny, I now understand alot more about turbos than I do before. I really do appreciate turbos. They are alot more civilized than I thought and/or what other people make of them. I am in love with that awesome turbo wheeze... love that ****. But of all the cars that I've driven (S40 T5's, 780Ti, C70Hpt, V70R, 242Ti's, 740Ti's, Subaru WRX, Jetta TDI, Golf 1.8T... many more, but I havent driven a good manual 242Ti yet... :( I've driven a few yes, but they were so dialed down that they were boring. )

Anyways, After I've driven all of those FAR SUPERIOR cars I drive home in my own car... I still like it. Heh. Quite toruey and drivable. I cant imagine what it'd be like if it was turboed, but I'm not going to put my parts collection to use quite yet, at least, not until I'm done with quite a few other things in my car first... (such as paint, suspension problems, under-dash CRAP, better wheel/tires, etc etc etc)... my main problem is not having time mainly because I want to finish my EE degree within 2 years... heh.
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Old 02-19-2003, 10:49 PM   #155
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John, didnt see your post. I think its ****ing cool that you got such great results. You've most definately have a great platform for "giggles" as you put it.

With pushing such big boost it sure does make alot of sense with the PS for you, but I have a question. Are you at all worried when you do the customary front-end collusion in one of your "giggling ralleys" that you'd ruin the IC and/or really tweak the front frame? It looks as though that cut out really just cut out the structural integrity of how the bumper shocks works to absorb force and transfers it behind it... it would make sense that if you did do a superb front end crash you'd bend something pretty good as the dynamics of how the 240 front end absorbs impact has changed... how the force compresses that metal before it impacts the undercarriage evenly... I dont know but to me, for a rally car, such integrity is sorta essential, isnt it? are you planning on building some kind of bracing or something to break the even/broad impact force into the two essential pressure points (about 6 inches behind the bumper shocks)?
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Old 02-19-2003, 11:18 PM   #156
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[quote:03dc686247]With pushing such big boost it sure does make alot of sense with the PS for you[/quote:03dc686247]

And it doesn't make sense for someone who can heatsoak the Volvo IC?
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Old 02-20-2003, 03:44 AM   #157
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Sizing an ic based on boost pressure doesn't seem real valid to me.
The point of getting the bigger ic is in part to allow more boost (well, a cooler, denser air charge, a higher boost threshold is a common side effect), saying, "I'll get a bigger ic when i can run 21psi on the volvo" is ass backwards.

PS While there is such a thing is a violent boost curve, saying the ic to blame is again just blatant misinformation. Optimize the system for max breathing, burn efficiency, etc, then deal with boost control as boost control.
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Old 02-20-2003, 12:46 PM   #158
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The Volvo has a rollcage, and the little bit cut outta it just ain't that bigga deal in the grand sceme of things. I still have four or five feet of crush room ahead of me. If I have an oopsie, I will certainly squish the I/C, and that would suck, but the shell is due for replacement anyways. I will reinforce outside of the frame rail on the driver's side, but am really not worried about it.
The intercooler has made for only plusses. More of yous guys should be thinking of doing something like this for your toys.
The DMS shocks are the wayyyyy bitchin' gig too. If we were to do a group buy, we may be able to get a better deal on 'em. Anybody interested?
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Old 02-20-2003, 03:26 PM   #159
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with your budget, what paticularly would be a "better deal"?

:P
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Old 02-20-2003, 04:40 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Volvo78GT
HAHAHAAA

Look, I'm telling you what happend with Jason. He has the föker of a car.

The turbo he has spools up so quickly that he has to practically have slicks to be able to stay on the road. He has haltech, pretty extreme headwork (he's a machinist), huge turbo, webbed block, custom pistons, connrods, reinforced crankshaft, (basically a 4 grand block and head)... blah blah blah...

He knows that this car is not to be driven on anything but a clear day. He made a mistake one day leaving the car at work and working late one day that he had to drive it home when it was pouring. Have you ever driven a RWD car that has the crappiest rain tires you can buy on it? (ie. slicks?) one ounce of moisture under that thing and you spin spin spin.

When it "pours" in texas, it REALLY pours. Not like the drizzle in seattle or the constant drumdum of New York, but SHEETS of Rain, Horizontal Rain, Buckets Rain, you name it. I remember that paticular day that he was doing this because it rained so hard that my yard flooded up, my pool was overflowing and water was creeping up to my back AND front door... pretty amazing considering the house's built on a small hump of a hill...

anyways, he's got a M46 (which is föking amazing that it isnt dead yet) and he has to granny shift soooo slowly because boost goes up from 1800RPM and up... he recalled how at a stop light it took him 4 redlights to finally get traction to get across the intersection. I am inclined to believe him because I've seen what he's done to his "former" M-rods... (after all he did find the threshold of where the M-rods start compressing and bending to ****... 20PSI...) anyways, He's going 25mph max in OD because any faster and/or lower gear he'd just slip and waste gas. This is paticuarly hard when you're trying to go up "hill" on a high way ramp thats concrete ****... I've driven that way and having nearly zero traction would be **** scary.

about "part throttle"... well, thats one of the problems he has with that car... if you do anything more than a feather touch of that gas pedal (custom HUGE throttle bodies) you see 16 psi almost immediately, half way you see full boost... so feathering it is damn hard to do... like coasting man... its not quite an easy thing to stay off boost in that car man.

It IS POSSIBLE to have a turbo spool up too "quickly". To do so at such a low RPM would be great for a 1/4 mile car but all that does in the street would just spin tires. I dont paticularly understand why Jason insists driving that car at all on the street (he never dynoed it but he'd drag pretty damn fast... I forget the numbers but they were impressive 1/8 mile numbers!) Its about throttle position, where the boost spools and how much, ecetera that determines how "drivable" a car is.

Driveability is a damn subjective concept but it is almost essential when you "drive" on the street. You want to be fast but you also want to be in control. Those real "fast" cars out there, such as the corvette, M5, mercedes, etc all are extremely fast but they had done so much R&D to be able to ensure that its fast when its wanted to be fast and otherwise. Thats why you buy a expensive car

Ideally you wouldnt want a turbo to really starting to spool until 2800RPM or so and to be full boost by 3200RPM or so. That'd be very drivable off boost and on, having that mid-range torque just kick you in the nuts and have some steam left in the turbo to push you around in high RPM. Jason shifts at 4.5-5000RPM (haltech has something of a cutoff... gawd I wish i could afford one of those!) for the paticular reason of his own... that he's timed and dialed it in for that type of driving... thats his thing, low end kick-ass.

Oh yeah I've driven turbo cars. I drove the high pressure C70 thats my work is trying to get rid of for a few days... (71k mi, nearly perfect condition, damn nice car for 13.5 grand or so, quite cheap really.) and thanks to some people and no thanks to you kenny, I now understand alot more about turbos than I do before. I really do appreciate turbos. They are alot more civilized than I thought and/or what other people make of them. I am in love with that awesome turbo wheeze... love that ****. But of all the cars that I've driven (S40 T5's, 780Ti, C70Hpt, V70R, 242Ti's, 740Ti's, Subaru WRX, Jetta TDI, Golf 1.8T... many more, but I havent driven a good manual 242Ti yet... :( I've driven a few yes, but they were so dialed down that they were boring. )

Anyways, After I've driven all of those FAR SUPERIOR cars I drive home in my own car... I still like it. Heh. Quite toruey and drivable. I cant imagine what it'd be like if it was turboed, but I'm not going to put my parts collection to use quite yet, at least, not until I'm done with quite a few other things in my car first... (such as paint, suspension problems, under-dash CRAP, better wheel/tires, etc etc etc)... my main problem is not having time mainly because I want to finish my EE degree within 2 years... heh.
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Old 02-20-2003, 04:40 PM   #161
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sorry... damn login.
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Old 02-20-2003, 04:51 PM   #162
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heh, the two manual 242 turbos i've driven were differnt but both were boring.

They were nearly perfect inside and out, one is non-IC and the other is.

the non-IC was a very nice car, tight and all, but it didnt really give that great torque that I was expecting and with the low compression... it was OK. I'd probally convert that car to IC and turn up the boost and have alot more fun, but thats not my car.

the IC one... ROFL. It ran great... just that the boost was turned down BELOW FACTORY! GROAN. I really wanted to drive a car like mine but with a turbo... sigh... not yet. I liked the way the torque kicked in, but it was too little.

heh

if you mean by my length of post... yeah i was bored.
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Old 02-20-2003, 04:57 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volvo78GT
with your budget, what paticularly would be a "better deal"?

:P
Like something in the neighborhood of $500-$600 per shock.
They are worth it.
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Old 02-20-2003, 05:19 PM   #164
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Wow. When I have money I'll most definately direct my questions to you!

Could you tell us a little about it?
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Old 02-20-2003, 07:20 PM   #165
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"The intercooler has made for only plusses. More of yous guys should be thinking of doing something like this for your toys."

Just thought that wqas worth repeating. Seeing how it's what EVERYONE on here has been arguing with me about for months. ;)
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Old 02-20-2003, 08:13 PM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volvo78GT
Wow. When I have money I'll most definately direct my questions to you!

Could you tell us a little about it?
Yup. Lots of dough.
The shocks make for a descent ride yet one can really thrash on the car without having things ever get sloppy. Firm without harsh. Very Very controlled. Ya would just have to drive a car with this stuff in it. Sorry, not too likely that many of ya will be driving mine. I just don't seem to get too far from the West coast.

Oh guys and gals.......Nothing but plusses with the HUGE intercooler.
Nothing but plusses with the HUGE intercooler. Nothing but plusses with the HUGE intercooler. Nothing but plusses with the HUGE intercooler. Is it starting to sink in?
LOL. JohnLane.
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Old 02-20-2003, 08:27 PM   #167
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OK! I get it now, if I'm running a T04 or a big ass hybrid, get the biggest frigging IC I can, and worry about trannys and axles and tires later! It all makes sense...why am I wasting my time with a 45-trim T03?

John- will you be giving test rides at the iPd garage sale? Or making an appearance at the VCOA National meet?
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Old 02-20-2003, 08:39 PM   #168
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Nope. Still don't get it. ;)
This would apply to any turbo. Actually, maybe even more so to small ones since there'd be a greater tendency to run them at the edge of their efficiency range. A big ic like that should allow a person to get a few more psi of USEABLE (ie not superheated) manifold pressure out of a stock turbo. So it would shine in an otherwise stock scenario too.
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Old 02-20-2003, 08:55 PM   #169
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I can't believe you guys are even bitching about any adverse effects on power production with a larger/better IC. The concerns are with fitting a huge IC, and making air can get through it without making your car too aerodynamically challenged. Both Kenny and John seem to have adressed the fitting and aerodynamic problem, and gasp are finding that it works. I notice that John held on to the square headlights. Looks fine, but if you want high beams you can fit single rounds and a GT/DL hood/grille. Or Just run dual rounds, since from the picture it looks as though they will fit. 28PSI is going to be fun in a PRV. I think even volvo knew their IC didn't flow that well when they made the 940 IC, since it is taller with a centered inlet. It is possible that for reasons Kenny already mentioned (small turbo cooling) it was important to make the tiny mitsu breathe a little easier on post 92 cars. If even the conservative volvo put a significantly larger IC on cars specifically designed for small turbos I think that would be proof enough that there was more to be had. I would be interested to see a comparsion between a 240/740 IC and a 940 IC.
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Old 02-20-2003, 09:09 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtlover
OK! I get it now, if I'm running a T04 or a big ass hybrid, get the biggest frigging IC I can, and worry about trannys and axles and tires later! It all makes sense...why am I wasting my time with a 45-trim T03?

John- will you be giving test rides at the iPd garage sale? Or making an appearance at the VCOA National meet?
I will be at Thunderhill at the end of April, and would not miss the IPD event if I am invited. That is always a nice day with nice folks. I will be at the Doo-Wop rallies the first weekend of March. Come out to see a good time happening.
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Old 02-20-2003, 09:14 PM   #171
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I can't believe you guys are even bitching about any adverse effects on power production with a larger/better IC. The concerns are with fitting a huge IC, and making air can get through it without making your car too aerodynamically challenged.
course ... I'd have one in there too but I am not about to get anywhere close to my car with a sawzall and start hacking away. I have been looking at maybe getting the PS IC cut down to fit instead but it doesnt look to "reweld" friendly as those bar and plate style, though I have looked at a PS IC in real life. :?

next on the list though is the LSD then the tranny .. then BIG IC.

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Old 02-20-2003, 09:44 PM   #172
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John, looking forward to seeing you down at TH. You intrested in some cheap dyno time on that saturday? SVS's dyno is rated for 1200 hp or so I hear ;)
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Old 02-20-2003, 09:53 PM   #173
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John,
do you require an age of 21+ to drive your car?

I plan on roadtripping this and next summer and may try to head up that way. I have some friends up there.
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Old 02-21-2003, 12:27 PM   #174
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John,
do you require an age of 21+ to drive your car?

I plan on roadtripping this and next summer and may try to head up that way. I have some friends up there.
The program is that you break it, you bought it.

OK guys and gals. I got some descent gas in the thing last night, and went to be a little naughty.
Freeway onramp. Two lanes merge to one. Second gear. Ford SVT lightning thing (the superdupercharged V-8 thing) in the next lane. I hear him plant his right foot (supercharger is noisy!!) I roll throttle to the mat. Boost comes up (set to 14lbs) G-forces build as I am pulled into the seat, and the rear tires break free on nice grippy tarmac. Grab third. Same drill. Oh-Oops. 6500 in third is 90mph or so. :shock: It is there as fast (or faster) as you are reading this. Oh and the pickup truck? He is a speck Wayyyyyyy back there wondering just what the hell happened. I back it down to 70 for the cruise home. The SVT thng catches me a few minutes later and gives me the big wave and a grin. No harm done. The EGO will grow back. Always does. :wink:
She is almost ready for the rally, and will be a LOT of fun. Now if I can just keep the shiny side up.
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Old 02-21-2003, 12:49 PM   #175
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[quote:23a5c5aee2]Just thought that wqas worth repeating. Seeing how it's what EVERYONE on here has been arguing with me about for months.
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Need I bring up the internet? The idea of putting a diesel truck intercooler into a car wasnt your idea Ken. You actually argued with me about it when I first mentioned it. "it'll never work, too large, it would take forever to fill...blahblahblah." Thats what you said about the holset too in one of those I-know-better-than-you ways...Any old timer will remember. I'd dig it up from the old message board, but I actually have a life.

No worries mate, you'll get that claim-to-fame one day.
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