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Old 10-23-2018, 07:51 PM   #26
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The torque you can make with normal aspiration is limited, all you can do is get closer to a theoretical maximum. Room for improvement, but not a doubling or tripling like you can do with boost. Since you can't make a bunch more boost, you just have to improve on the other part of the HP equation, RPM. Torque is nice, torque at double the RPM is twice as nice.

And yeah, I'd say well north of 7000 rpm. Like the Honda S2K engines that have a 9000 rpm redline. You're probably not going to get a square(r) Volvo motor to rev like that (for long), but the higher the better.

I/H/E - Intake/Head/Exhaust. It gets increasingly difficult and technical to make it all flow effectively at higher RPM's.

I think we all get somewhat spoiled with how turbo cars make HP (just up the booooosts!), it's hard to get a really significant increase in HP out of a normally aspirated engine.
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Old 10-23-2018, 07:54 PM   #27
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inlet something exhaust?
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Old 10-23-2018, 09:37 PM   #28
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The torque you can make with normal aspiration is limited, all you can do is get closer to a theoretical maximum. Room for improvement, but not a doubling or tripling like you can do with boost. Since you can't make a bunch more boost, you just have to improve on the other part of the HP equation, RPM. Torque is nice, torque at double the RPM is twice as nice.

And yeah, I'd say well north of 7000 rpm. Like the Honda S2K engines that have a 9000 rpm redline. You're probably not going to get a square(r) Volvo motor to rev like that (for long), but the higher the better.

I/H/E - Intake/Head/Exhaust. It gets increasingly difficult and technical to make it all flow effectively at higher RPM's.

I think we all get somewhat spoiled with how turbo cars make HP (just up the booooosts!), it's hard to get a really significant increase in HP out of a normally aspirated engine.
Agree 100% we get spoilt by boost...but boost is about same volume engining making moare toque and by difinition more hp...the definintion of hp is torque x time --how BIG is the BAND= torque..How many BANGS in a unit of time= HP..Up the first and you up the second...

FLOW is nearly always talked about in PEAK terms and linked to "ability to rev" commonly.
But valves aren't instantaneous at full lift. Nor are engines run at 100% wide open...
The increasingly difficult part is also the increasingly 'spensive part...I've often just shaken my head when people fixate on peak flow at some max lift ---often way beyond what can affordably be pulled off in left and brag about another 5-8cfm at "14mm lift" when you see the flow flatten out at say 11.5mm lift... What % is 5 out of 175? Under 3%...
So is it worth $2000 more for 3% more?
Is it worth $2000 more in a head for 3% more peak---if the car still has a gearbox with canyons between the gears and a 2 car-length 1st gear that'll fall 40-50% revs on a gearchange Like WHAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa(cruch!) DUHhhhhhhhhhhh
That is a big problem so little point in having a fap-fest about MAX anything...

(and that's why I look mainly at upping torque to make it so the motor acn "pull' the gearchanges without falling flat on its face. And peak HP be damned to some degree.)
Do what we can do and see how it feels and maybe that's all the guy really wants in the end.
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Old 10-23-2018, 11:42 PM   #29
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True - cars are systems. No point mating 200 hp to a 2.90 final drive if you were thinking of having fun!

What car is this B20 going in? What are you using it for? Enquiring minds want to know!
Since the OP is MIA and I'm familiar with the project I'll try to answer.

He has an early 142 that he's using for 'vintage rallies' that involve spirited driving on paved and gravel roads. It has a 4.30 rear end with a Tru-Trac LSD and he plans on using a T5 trans when the DeeWorks adapters are available.

The engine will be bored .100" over to 3.6" (2100cc) using forged pistons and rods. The F head will get oversized valves, hardened exhaust seats, dual valve springs, a mild port job and be milled to increase compression to 10.5-11:1. He's looking at cams with either .480"/280° or .510"/300°. He has dual DCOE's (45's I think) for induction. I'm not sure what the plans are for exhaust.

I told him to expect 160-175 hp realistically. 200 is a bit optimistic.
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Old 10-24-2018, 12:03 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by hiperfauto View Post
Since the OP is MIA and I'm familiar with the project I'll try to answer.

He has an early 142 that he's using for 'vintage rallies' that involve spirited driving on paved and gravel roads. It has a 4.30 rear end with a Tru-Trac LSD and he plans on using a T5 trans when the DeeWorks adapters are available.

The engine will be bored .100" over to 3.6" (2100cc) using forged pistons and rods. The F head will get oversized valves, hardened exhaust seats, dual valve springs, a mild port job and be milled to increase compression to 10.5-11:1. He's looking at cams with either .480"/280° or .510"/300°. He has dual DCOE's (45's I think) for induction. I'm not sure what the plans are for exhaust.

I told him to expect 160-175 hp realistically. 200 is a bit optimistic.
I have an NOS B18-B20 'U' cam for $180 plus shipping, supporting mods are shown in the 1979 R sport catalog.
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Folks on here don't know a good deal when they see it.
how psi stock cna support?

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Old 10-24-2018, 12:38 AM   #31
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Old 10-24-2018, 12:42 AM   #32
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Old 10-24-2018, 10:13 AM   #33
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I had an S cam in the PV's motor for a while (until a lobe got chewed off, as happens occasionally with these things).

It was pretty fun, nice 'on cam' feel at 3200 rpm or so, pulled pretty well up past 7500. I have an Isky VV81 in it now, which is pretty similar to the S.

There is a noticeable (relative) lack of power under 3000 rpm though, but in use, that's really just a brief moment or two when starting out in 1st, from there on when you shift to a higher gear (when you're at least trying to accelerate quickly, anyhow), you're already over 3K in the next higher gear. That's with an M41's stock ratios, at least, but still, you're never in a dead spot unless you're just puttering along on purpose.
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Old 10-24-2018, 10:32 AM   #34
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Agree 100% we get spoilt by boost...but boost is about same volume engining making moare toque and by difinition more hp...the definintion of hp is torque x time --how BIG is the BAND= torque..How many BANGS in a unit of time= HP..Up the first and you up the second...

FLOW is nearly always talked about in PEAK terms and linked to "ability to rev" commonly.
But valves aren't instantaneous at full lift. Nor are engines run at 100% wide open...
The increasingly difficult part is also the increasingly 'spensive part...I've often just shaken my head when people fixate on peak flow at some max lift ---often way beyond what can affordably be pulled off in left and brag about another 5-8cfm at "14mm lift" when you see the flow flatten out at say 11.5mm lift... What % is 5 out of 175? Under 3%...
So is it worth $2000 more for 3% more?
Is it worth $2000 more in a head for 3% more peak---if the car still has a gearbox with canyons between the gears and a 2 car-length 1st gear that'll fall 40-50% revs on a gearchange Like WHAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa(cruch!) DUHhhhhhhhhhhh
That is a big problem so little point in having a fap-fest about MAX anything...

(and that's why I look mainly at upping torque to make it so the motor acn "pull' the gearchanges without falling flat on its face. And peak HP be damned to some degree.)
Do what we can do and see how it feels and maybe that's all the guy really wants in the end.
I was subtly saying the same thing. Peak HP is all about pushing the torque band higher and higher, and unless you can do the New(!) Improved(!) fancy fun things with cams like modern engines can (the Honda VTEC two cams-in-one, or variable cam timing, or variable intake timing separately from variable exhaust timing), like you said, it comes with tradeoff lower in the RPM range.
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Old 10-24-2018, 01:38 PM   #35
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Nice..
Except copy editor didn't catch the "Intake closes before BDC"..I don't think intake valve opens on S cam 49* BTDC and closes 71 before Bottom Dead center..That would be 158* duration.

I think they mean 71 AFTER BDC...49+180+71=300..

With enough static compression that sounds like it would be a very nice, fun camshaft.
but it would need at least 11.0:1 to be fun..
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Old 10-24-2018, 02:34 PM   #36
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I don't think 7000 is revving the piss outta sumpin..8000 yeah

And whats I/H/E? for us nervous novices??
8K Rev range would be awesome.

I just put a 4.10 rear end with a detroit trutrac in there so that's what I'm doinng for the final drive.

What goes in between is still a bit of a question. Currently, I have an m40 in there. But I have an s10 t5 five-speed that I would love to put in there. I want to use the s10 t5 so that I can try to keep the school bus shifter as close to its stock location and because I want a 5th gear.

The reason for that is because of how I use it.

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What car is this B20 going in? What are you using it for? Enquiring minds want to know!
It's going in a '68 142s. I use the car mostly for the vintage car rallies in northern California. And by "vintage car rally" I usually mean the preferred legal term of "self guided tour of California's back roads." But I live in LA. Which means a lot of really buzzy highway miles just to get to the start. The 4.10 was to bring the highway rpms down a bit and I'm hoping the 5-speed will do it a little bit more.

I don't know what gear set is in the t5 though as I haven't quite gotten that far, and I figure I could always add it down the road.
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Old 10-24-2018, 02:38 PM   #37
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T5's usually have a sky high 5th gear. Trying to coax some EPA mpg's out of a lazy V8.
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Old 10-24-2018, 02:40 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by hiperfauto View Post
Since the OP is MIA and I'm familiar with the project I'll try to answer.

He has an early 142 that he's using for 'vintage rallies' that involve spirited driving on paved and gravel roads. It has a 4.30 rear end with a Tru-Trac LSD and he plans on using a T5 trans when the DeeWorks adapters are available.

The engine will be bored .100" over to 3.6" (2100cc) using forged pistons and rods. The F head will get oversized valves, hardened exhaust seats, dual valve springs, a mild port job and be milled to increase compression to 10.5-11:1. He's looking at cams with either .480"/280° or .510"/300°. He has dual DCOE's (45's I think) for induction. I'm not sure what the plans are for exhaust.

I told him to expect 160-175 hp realistically. 200 is a bit optimistic.
Sorry for being MIA. It's been a bit bonkers in my life lately.
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Old 10-24-2018, 02:48 PM   #39
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I had an S cam in the PV's motor for a while (until a lobe got chewed off, as happens occasionally with these things).

It was pretty fun, nice 'on cam' feel at 3200 rpm or so, pulled pretty well up past 7500. I have an Isky VV81 in it now, which is pretty similar to the S.

There is a noticeable (relative) lack of power under 3000 rpm though, but in use, that's really just a brief moment or two when starting out in 1st, from there on when you shift to a higher gear (when you're at least trying to accelerate quickly, anyhow), you're already over 3K in the next higher gear. That's with an M41's stock ratios, at least, but still, you're never in a dead spot unless you're just puttering along on purpose.

I ended up getting a NOS IPD cam that supposedly has an R-grind on it. I also have a K cam on the shelf. Ideally I'd use one of those. I'll beed to confirm the grind of the IPD cam before I make that decision.

As Hiperfauto said, 200 is the goal but I know it's more pie in the sky than a reality.

As John V has made a solid argument for, I wanted to turbo the engine. But I feel like I was getting project paralysis trying to decide. I'm doing forged rods on a 6-bolt crank with the thought that one day I might turbo. But then there's a whole lot more stuff I'll have to think about, like redoing the rear end and coming up with a better brake solution over the 164 front rotors and calipers.
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Old 10-24-2018, 04:01 PM   #40
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T5's usually have a sky high 5th gear. Trying to coax some EPA mpg's out of a lazy V8.
Which means that in combowith thier 2,95 first , a guy can stick a 4.88 axle ratio and have a good 1st thru 4th that rips..then stick it in 5th and cruise slightly less rpm than a stockk box/stock rear end car
Dual sport made manifest.
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Old 10-24-2018, 04:16 PM   #41
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I ended up getting a NOS IPD cam that supposedly has an R-grind on it. I also have a K cam on the shelf. Ideally I'd use one of those. I'll beed to confirm the grind of the IPD cam before I make that decision.

As Hiperfauto said, 200 is the goal but I know it's more pie in the sky than a reality.

As John V has made a solid argument for, I wanted to turbo the engine. But I feel like I was getting project paralysis trying to decide. I'm doing forged rods on a 6-bolt crank with the thought that one day I might turbo. But then there's a whole lot more stuff I'll have to think about, like redoing the rear end and coming up with a better brake solution over the 164 front rotors and calipers.
When it comes to what to do now vs what you may want to do in future....fun n.a. and fun turbo are going to call for different compression....n.a. wants flat top pistons and a compact chamber for moar compressions...Turbo wants significantly lower compression when you have a cast iron head, and relatively large bore with a spark plug over on one side..
In theory to make the n.a. thing go good you go flat tops and mill the head a bunch, and then later to use the same head, go t custom deeper dish pistons..

But that's buying pistons twice..
I say decide one or the other..
Do a n.a. right, including box and final drive with a silly 5th and it might just be fine and just what you're looking for.. negating the need for turbo and all the bother of that (fool infection, ignition control etc)
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Old 10-24-2018, 04:30 PM   #42
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When it comes to what to do now vs what you may want to do in future....fun n.a. and fun turbo are going to call for different compression....n.a. wants flat top pistons and a compact chamber for moar compressions...Turbo wants significantly lower compression when you have a cast iron head, and relatively large bore with a spark plug over on one side..
In theory to make the n.a. thing go good you go flat tops and mill the head a bunch, and then later to use the same head, go t custom deeper dish pistons..

But that's buying pistons twice..
I say decide one or the other..
Do a n.a. right, including box and final drive with a silly 5th and it might just be fine and just what you're looking for.. negating the need for turbo and all the bother of that (fool infection, ignition control etc)

You're 100% right. That trade off is what had me wavering back and forth for so long. I have an extra b20f head on the shelf so I figured I could just have that one decked and ported, then run a thicker head gasket to lower the compression ratio should I want to turbo in the future.

But for right now I think you're right, just make the NA engine as good as it can be and I will probably not ever think about turboing again.
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Old 10-25-2018, 03:44 AM   #43
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Too many choices is just as bad as not enough
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Old 10-25-2018, 10:24 AM   #44
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Too many choices is just as bad as not enough
Don't I know it! I think my eyes might have been bigger than my ability with the turbo thoughts.
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Old 11-13-2018, 01:38 PM   #45
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I finally found a place that can, at the very least, crack test the two blocks I've got.

Once we've got a winner, I'll send the entire rotating assembly to the machine shop and start assembly.

Has anyone ever figure out a pan baffle solution for the b20? Or at the minimum a windage tray?

Can anyone post the DeeWorks b20 adapter discussion?
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Old 11-13-2018, 01:54 PM   #46
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I finally found a place that can, at the very least, crack test the two blocks I've got.

Once we've got a winner, I'll send the entire rotating assembly to the machine shop and start assembly.

Has anyone ever figure out a pan baffle solution for the b20? Or at the minimum a windage tray?

Can anyone post the DeeWorks b20 adapter discussion?
Crack check a B20 block?
Has the 2 B20 blocks been used for top fuel drag motors for a long time?
Pro-stock drag?

If not then why?

MAYBE the cranks could be Magna-fluxed--------if they had been subjected to huge loads and high sustained revs over 8000, so have they?
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Old 11-13-2018, 02:58 PM   #47
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Has anyone ever figure out a pan baffle solution for the b20? Or at the minimum a windage tray?
We sell these.





Or you might be able to buy an actual scraper at the website below.

https://www.crank-scrapers.com/Volvo.html
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Old 11-13-2018, 03:40 PM   #48
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We sell these.





Or you might be able to buy an actual scraper at the website below.

https://www.crank-scrapers.com/Volvo.html
Are they each crack tested?
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Old 11-13-2018, 08:36 PM   #49
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Never trust anybody who claims to be a crack tester.
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