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Old 03-16-2016, 12:29 PM   #1
albertabrick
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Default anyone use bmw zf 5 speed

I own a 86 760 turbo with auto and i have a bmw engine and trans laying around zf 5 speed and I was wondering if anyone has ever used this tranny. all the bmw guys use it in racing its definitely strong enough. I know its a direct swap between the common e36 trans to this one minus drive shaft length. I saw on kl racing that there is a zf adapter not sure if this is exactly the one id need. anyway post your thoughts
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Old 03-16-2016, 01:29 PM   #2
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I know this isn't exactly the answer that you are looking for, but I have a ZF in my Corvette. I could not be happier with it. I wouldn't have even bothered posting this, except you haven't gotten an answer yet. I don't drive the car much, but when I do I'm pretty rough on it and love the transmission. The gate is smooth, and doesn't seem to be giving up at all. Good luck with the swap and I hope you get a better answer!
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Old 03-16-2016, 01:46 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albertabrick View Post
I own a 86 760 turbo with auto and i have a bmw engine and trans laying around zf 5 speed and I was wondering if anyone has ever used this tranny. all the bmw guys use it in racing its definitely strong enough. I know its a direct swap between the common e36 trans to this one minus drive shaft length. I saw on kl racing that there is a zf adapter not sure if this is exactly the one id need. anyway post your thoughts

Eternal TB question: If I can somehow glue or duct tape or zip this thing in, is there part any good.

Answer..Not if it doesn't make things better than stock,

All the manuals on this chart of ratios would all be great in a min-truck..Lover 1st gear ratios..
http://www.bokchoys.com/differential/GearRatios.htm
Ok most of the time you don't need a pull-the-car-out--sea-of-mud granny low gear..Volvo's first is too short already.

Engine powerband, gear ratios and final drive all have to work together..Pretty easy concept...

Look at the chart look at final drive...Can you and do you currently cruise at 200 km/hr
And frequently above 210 km/hr?
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Old 03-16-2016, 01:54 PM   #4
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I've given it much thought since they're more plentiful than the M90 on "this side of the pond" but take some (a lot) of work to fit properly. The page JohnV linked helps a bit regarding ratios and whatnot. 1-2 will probably SUCK but the thing is that preferences are different. So we try to shoot for 'ideals'...

First step would be identifying what transmission you have. Easier if you know what care it came out of.
This may definitely help - http://www.bmwforums.info/general-gu...ification.html

Looking around the gearbox case (trans case, tranny case... yadda) , you'll see quite a few markings. Usually you'll see a ZF or BMW Stamp/Engraving, along with something like ZF XXXX XXX XXX OR xx.225 or xx.226 (if it's a ZF 5 speed that really narrows it down unless this was pulled from an early E46)

Tried to stick to KISS but I didn't want to oversimplify.

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Old 03-16-2016, 05:31 PM   #5
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hey thanks for the replies I also have a getrag 250 out of my e36 I could use as well and a friend with a getrag adapter for the 265 but not sure if the 250 and 265 shared the same belhousing to transmission bolt pattern
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Old 03-16-2016, 05:51 PM   #6
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Make it interesting and get a BMW six-speed. It's basically the same box plus a 0.80:1 sixth gear. You need to fab up a lot of things anyways.
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Old 03-16-2016, 06:00 PM   #7
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ya funny too on kl racing their getrag adapter says that it will work for getrags from m50 and m51 bmw engine families which includes the getrag250 so I emailed them to see
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Old 03-16-2016, 07:13 PM   #8
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Maybe help...

https://translate.google.com/transla...6170f1992c232d
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Old 03-17-2016, 08:24 AM   #9
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Check the auto bell housing you have on the auto. I know some 740's had ZF auto's not sure if the bell-housings would swap to the manual however it's worth a shot.
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Old 03-17-2016, 10:34 AM   #10
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They will not.

Koki's link helps and gives a good summation. The M47 bellhousing is usually welded to the gearbox. KL, LMR, etc used to sell them already welded and nearly ready to go (need to sort your shifter location and other bits) but I'm having trouble finding a product link currently.

Ninja Edit: http://www.l-m-r.se/p/volvo/940960/v...dblockare.html

- Produkten är tyvärr slut hos oss - No longer in stock/out of stock currently. Guess their supply dried up or there wasn't a lot of demand. Or maybe cheaper for people to do it their self who knows.

Non Ninja Edit:

Product links just to give more ideas:
530D Gearbox w/ welded bellhousing - http://bakaxel.se/vaxellador/andra-5...volvo-rod.html

E39(?) 5 Series 6 Speed Box w/ welded bellhousing - http://bakaxel.se/vaxellador/530-6-vxl-volvo-rod.html

Some people report bringing their own bellhousing + gearbox and having it welded by them(bakaxel), obviously not an option over in the US/Canada

Last edited by MDVLN; 03-17-2016 at 10:49 AM..
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Old 03-17-2016, 11:25 AM   #11
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i can weld it if that's what it takes that's definitely not hard to do just have to make sure you have the trans clocked right when you do it. that's a pretty feasible idea tho just take some carefull cutting to make sure your imput shaft to belhousing surface is exactly 90 degrees to each other
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Old 03-17-2016, 11:52 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albertabrick View Post
i can weld it if that's what it takes that's definitely not hard to do just have to make sure you have the trans clocked right when you do it. that's a pretty feasible idea tho just take some carefull cutting to make sure your imput shaft to belhousing surface is exactly 90 degrees to each other
It is hard especially for a one shot deal..CENTERING the both...and all for something functionally useless..
IF you gear the axle so that 1st and second is useful ie a 3.0 ratio in the axle, then 4th and 5th are sky-high...IF you gear axle so 4th and 5th are useful then 1st is good for nothing except driving onto a trailer..
Bad ratio can ruin a car just like (snap) that...

OR! maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you can in fact cruise the vast Canajian Prairie for hours on end at 220 km/hr so the car can be geared like a n.a. BMW and be happy.

Or maybe not
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Old 03-17-2016, 11:55 AM   #13
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Which ZF?

BMW usually rates their trans by n.m so if you have ZF310 and 320, one is rated for 310n.m while 320 is 320n.m , but they can be identical internally, just different case size, the 310 is pre 96 and 320 is post 96 iirc, just avoid 4cyl Getrag at all costs, they are not very good.

6spd from E46 M3 is Getrag 420, they are same internally between all V8 and I6, but different bellhousing.

Having had quite few BMW manuals over the years, ZF is stronger, Getrag shifts better.

edit: Lots of folks with older BMW like to convert Getrag 280 or others to 265, which they believe is one of the toughest BMW Getrag trans built, I have a 265 in my car and I like it, but my car isn't very powerful compare to others here.
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Old 03-17-2016, 03:00 PM   #14
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ya I have a getrag 250 which I think is the same belhousing bolt patern as the 265 so the adapter should in theory work the same. and the getrag that came in the 318 in e36 was the same as in the 325 all the way up to 98 is what bmw forums state?
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Old 03-17-2016, 03:16 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albertabrick View Post
ya I have a getrag 250 which I think is the same belhousing bolt patern as the 265 so the adapter should in theory work the same. and the getrag that came in the 318 in e36 was the same as in the 325 all the way up to 98 is what bmw forums state?
Usually when a Getrag 265 is used with a redblock, the adapter plate goes between the bellhousing and the transmission.The Getrag 265 has a detachable bellhousing, I.E. it is bolted to the transmission. Like this:



I have no exprience of a Getrag 250, but Google shows this as one:



The bellhousing on the 250 seems to be integral. The top part most likely is not just a bellhousing, but also has bearing housings machined in it etc. So that type of adapter plate, which goes between the tranmission and the bellhousing, will not work. If you have an adapter plate that goes between the engine block and the transmission, and if the bolt pattern is the same on both transmissions, then maybe it'll fit and work.
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Old 03-18-2016, 10:07 AM   #16
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ya I have a getrag 250 which I think is the same belhousing bolt patern as the 265 so the adapter should in theory work the same. and the getrag that came in the 318 in e36 was the same as in the 325 all the way up to 98 is what bmw forums state?
No no,

Getrag 250= single piece trans, originally off E36 4cyl and early 6cyl (M50's), all M52 (96 and up) used ZF trans instead as they were stronger, the ratio is slightly closer on the 250, they can withstand abuse but not huge torque rating, keep in mind they were meant to work with engines max out at 250lb/ft, biggest problem with these is that synchro starts to fail after lot of abuse, it happened on my own M52 swapped car. The plus, can be had for very cheap. If you want them to work on Volvo, you need to machine the bell housing.

Getrag 265= removable bellhousing, many moons ago a very smart person came up with the adaptor that allows you to bolt Volvo bellhousing to the trans, these came from E28/24 with M30 (535i/635csi).
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Old 03-18-2016, 10:53 AM   #17
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thanks I went and looked at my trans I had in storage and realised it wasn't going to work with out machining the bellhousing and welding the Volvo one on
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Old 03-18-2016, 11:48 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by albertabrick View Post
thanks I went and looked at my trans I had in storage and realised it wasn't going to work with out machining the bellhousing and welding the Volvo one on
You can do it on a budget, it's being done many times before, just have to be careful like John V said.

Calculate and measure 20x, machine and weld once.
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Old 03-19-2016, 02:05 AM   #19
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is there part any good.
Almost sigged that one!

If I really gave a crap about putting a certain gearbox behind a redblock I would go with the method of cutting off the bellhousing flange and welding on traktor flange.
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Old 03-19-2016, 03:43 AM   #20
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If you are going with the cut and weld -method, it would be a good idea to make, on have made, a centering axle that fits to the main bearing line of the engine block and also to the main shafts bearing line in the transmission.

Then use that together with an engine block to keep everything aligned when welding. Just eyeballing or even measuring carefully without any sort of guide will most likely lead to misalignment of the bearing lines. If that happens, the transmission will not be a long-living one.
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Old 03-19-2016, 11:25 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wagner View Post
If you are going with the cut and weld -method, it would be a good idea to make, on have made, a centering axle that fits to the main bearing line of the engine block and also to the main shafts bearing line in the transmission.

Then use that together with an engine block to keep everything aligned when welding. Just eyeballing or even measuring carefully without any sort of guide will most likely lead to misalignment of the bearing lines. If that happens, the transmission will not be a long-living one.
And groan and vibrate like concrete mix machine and moan all the time while it is croaking to death..

Silly even thinking about it when there are better alternatives..
Plan:

A) sell dumb "crawl at 30 km-hr then zoom flat out" getrieb gemakt für autbahnen paaska saksalianen conditions

b) get a gearbox that everythings is easier and rations work in Merkian conditions bcause Merikuh is Numbah 1 wooot wooot!..Merkian trans made by our little brown friends in our colony across the border.. Called Teee Five...

c) drive car

d) have fun

e) quit wasting effort on obscure hard to find answwers, technically difficult to do, and therefore expensive solutions to already solved problems based on the crappiest reason ever "I have it laying here for free!!! Oh golly winkies is that kewl? Since its for free ANY amount of expensive fab and weld and fit is worth it! (Bing) on the chance it might work in this situation! But for free! More free!
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Old 03-19-2016, 11:28 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by ZVOLV View Post
Almost sigged that one!

If I really gave a crap about putting a certain gearbox behind a redblock I would go with the method of cutting off the bellhousing flange and welding on traktor flange.
Don't be an evil TBe and quote the whole thing taking things out of context to pretend you caught somebody at something
:
Quote:
Eternal TB question: "If I can somehow glue or duct tape or zip this thing in, is there part any good."

It was "the eternal TBer" asking
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Old 07-31-2019, 06:08 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Chigga 744SE View Post
No no,

Getrag 250= single piece trans, originally off E36 4cyl and early 6cyl (M50's), all M52 (96 and up) used ZF trans instead as they were stronger, the ratio is slightly closer on the 250, they can withstand abuse but not huge torque rating, keep in mind they were meant to work with engines max out at 250lb/ft, biggest problem with these is that synchro starts to fail after lot of abuse, it happened on my own M52 swapped car. The plus, can be had for very cheap. If you want them to work on Volvo, you need to machine the bell housing.

Getrag 265= removable bellhousing, many moons ago a very smart person came up with the adaptor that allows you to bolt Volvo bellhousing to the trans, these came from E28/24 with M30 (535i/635csi).
OK because I'm the kinda guy that likes to bump an ancient thread. There are a few different gearboxes in that era BMW.

BMW S5-200G (Getrag 220/5), S5-200G (Getrag 221/5), and S5-250G (Getrag 220/5). In E46/E39 applications the 250G was used with the 2.5L engines (323/325/525). My experience is that the shift forks get sloppy with age. Otherwise it's a decent box and I've taken two through around 170k miles so far. They are noisy at idle with a single mass flywheel (even with a sprung hub clutch).

ZF S5-31 (BMW S5D-260Z, S5D-280Z, S5D-31Z, S5D-320Z, GS5S31BZ - SMG). The later 310/320 boxes were used in the E36 M3 (US), E46 328/330, and E39 528/530 models. Shift pins get sticky over time and need replacement.

BMW S6S-420G (Getrag 226/6). This is the six speed unit out of the E46 M3, E39 540, and E39 M5. The V8 uses a completely different bellhousing pattern. Shifts like poo and the 2nd and 3rd gear syncros are a known weak point. Generally not considered repairable. The SMG version can be modified fairly easily to fit a conventional slave cylinder and shifter.

ZF S6-37 (BMW GS6-37BZ - gas, GS6-37DZ - diesel, GS6S37BZ - SMG, GS6-37BG - made by Getrag). This was used in later E46 330s, E60 530s, E83 Z4s (both M and 3.0i), and a bunch of non-BMWs. It's supposed to shift quite a bit nicer than the 420G but doesn't seem to play well with the high revving M motors. They're mostly interchangeable within the different applications but require specific clutch kits and flywheels. The E46 version puts the pilot bearing in the flywheel, the others do not. The Z4M version may have a longer input shaft. The rear housing is different between the SMG and normal variants which does not lend itself to an SMG conversion.

One other thing that may not be obvious to the uninitiated is that 5th gear is a 1:1 ratio on all of these boxes.
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Old 07-31-2019, 06:17 PM   #24
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I often wonder why people don’t adapt the GM Super T-10, like from mid- ‘80’s Corvettes. Close ratios and 1st gear as high as 2.20:1. Very sturdy with removable bellhousing, so should be easy to adapt.
Just a thought.
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Old 07-31-2019, 06:45 PM   #25
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I often wonder why people don’t adapt the GM Super T-10, like from mid- ‘80’s Corvettes. Close ratios and 1st gear as high as 2.20:1. Very sturdy with removable bellhousing, so should be easy to adapt.
Just a thought.
Isn't that a 4-speed?
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