• Hello Guest, welcome to the initial stages of our new platform!
    You can find some additional information about where we are in the process of migrating the board and setting up our new software here

    Thank you for being a part of our community!

900 and 700 rally cars - why?

Spac

Active member
Joined
Mar 20, 2003
Location
Near Canberra, Australia
I'm at home with a nasty head cold, so I've been killing time surfing You-Tube.

Something that I've noticed is that the Europeans seem to be rallying more 900s and late 700s than 200s and 140s nowdays....

Why?

Is the benefit of IRS enough to outweigh the extra weight and size?
Is is something to do with local rally regulations?
Is it something simple like 'most 240s have rusted away'?
Something else?
 
I'm at home with a nasty head cold, so I've been killing time surfing You-Tube.

Something that I've noticed is that the Europeans seem to be rallying more 900s and late 700s than 200s and 140s nowdays....

Why?

Is the benefit of IRS enough to outweigh the extra weight and size?
Is is something to do with local rally regulations?
Is it something simple like 'most 240s have rusted away'?
Something else?


If 240s haven't rusted away, then the loonies in GpH have rolled thousands into scrap for years.
The 240s were the most popular car period for quite a number of years, still may be..

No advantage to the IRS, and likey solid axles are shoved into the cars.
No rules outlawing older cars in GpH.
 
probably due to the fact that there are more of them to go around. You can find a non-rusted 7xx shell and especially a 9xx shell (they were made until 98 most places) relatively easy. The same cannot be said of its older, uglier cousin.

Or, it could be due to the superior stance and wider track of the 7xx/9xx. You get a more stable ride and more stable handling. Could also be due to the superior underhood space, allowing for larger turbo chargers, better IC piping, better air flow to breath for the motor and more exotic (read: more fun) powerplants to be shoved in.

Who knows....That being said, you know how much i cannot stand 2xx cars. Keep on rallyin the 7xx/9xx cars!
 
probably due to the fact that there are more of them to go around. You can find a non-rusted 7xx shell and especially a 9xx shell (they were made until 98 most places) relatively easy. The same cannot be said of its older, uglier cousin.

Or, it could be due to the superior stance and wider track of the 7xx/9xx. You get a more stable ride and more stable handling. Could also be due to the superior underhood space, allowing for larger turbo chargers, better IC piping, better air flow to breath for the motor and more exotic (read: more fun) powerplants to be shoved in.

Who knows....That being said, you know how much i cannot stand 2xx cars. Keep on rallyin the 7xx/9xx cars!

+1million
 
Because you can get a pristine 7 or 9 series for next to nothing, you can wreck one and not even care about wrecking a "rare" car. The motors are newer, the parts are more readily available, etc. I'd rally a 7xx car way before I used a 2xx.
 
I'm at home with a nasty head cold, so I've been killing time surfing You-Tube.

Something that I've noticed is that the Europeans seem to be rallying more 900s and late 700s than 200s and 140s nowdays....

Why?

Is the benefit of IRS enough to outweigh the extra weight and size?



Very few of the 9 series cars have IRS
 
probably due to the fact that there are more of them to go around. You can find a non-rusted 7xx shell and especially a 9xx shell (they were made until 98 most places) relatively easy. The same cannot be said of its older, uglier cousin.

Well Spac said "Europeans" and the only places where there are significant numbers used in rally is Sweden and to a lesser extent Norway and Finland.
Now given that the 240s were rightfully waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more popular than the hideous ugly 747 K-cars nad that they sold maybe 3.9 trillion 240s, there's no shortage in those places of core cars.
You should note thaty in late '89 early 90 the production lines making 240s were doing 2 Saturdays a month overtime on a 40 hour week, while the 740 lines were running under- capacity and send home workers 2 Fridays a month.

Says something about the relative popularity and about basic Lutheran caustion, conservatism, and thrift.

Or, it could be due to the superior stance and wider track of the 7xx/9xx. You get a more stable ride and more stable handling.

Not a factor on one lane wide gravel roads, indeed it could be construed as a hindrance, as could the ridiculously long wheelbase which could be a hindrance on narrower, twistier stages (which isn't so often the case on Swedish and Finnish stages).
The 240's 104" wheelbase is just about ideal on stages with the 100-110 km/hr avaerage we see the best cars doing.



Could also be due to the superior underhood space, allowing for larger turbo chargers, better IC piping, better air flow to breath for the motor

99.9% of the Volvo's in the North are in GpH which is for normal aspirated 2wd cars, of Finnish GroupF, same: 2wd NA., or in VOC which again is NA only.



and more exotic (read: more fun) powerplants to be shoved in.

Nope, they're not allowed, boring and stroke are allowed if the Technical committee say (they are trying to have some sort of PARITY) its OK in Sweden, in Finland boring only.

Who knows....

Since everything you guessed at was off the mark, it's clear it ain't you:-P


That being said, you know how much i cannot stand 2xx cars.

Your styling preferences shouldn't blind you to the superior usability of the 240s when the long record is clear and established regarding the 240s use on gravel---and snow.


Keep on rallyin the 7xx/9xx cars!

How about just keep on rallying?:nod:
 
I would imagine that out of all the Euro-Volvos the 360 flower mower would be best suited for rallying being smaller & having the ability to just drop your B230-whatever in.
 
I would imagine that out of all the Euro-Volvos the 360 flower mower would be best suited for rallying being smaller & having the ability to just drop your B230-whatever in.

Well it seems that many here in the US think the same, and generally they are folks who have never driven down a gravel road at 80 to 110mph.

See with speed comes the need for the car to have some stability, and there are some countries that have roads which allow fairly high average speeds: Sweden, Finland, USA and Canada.

A lot is how the places developed their wildernesses, when roads were built, land ownership and what grows on the land, and of course natural forces like how glaciated it was during the last ice-age.

Whatever the reasons, the roads in those places are more flowing and therefore faster than some places such as the UK, Ireland, French Alps and Alpes Maritime, Italian Alpes where the roads grew out of old footpaths or goat paths that had been around for centuries.

There's a range for the cars wheelbase which seem to work really well at the speeds people do on fast stages and that range in modern years seems to fall between 97.5" and about 104".

Sure there are cars that fall outside that range, and the coolest car in all human civilisation, the Ford MkI and MkII rwd Escort are only 94.5"---but they were best and are still fantastic on tight, twisty, narrow stages asphalt or gravel.

But when average newbies who have 1-2 60 mile events do 55-or so mph average on stages, and are often above that on the straights there is NO ADVANTAGE to a shorter, and naturally therefore twitchier car.
Indeed there is an advantage to a car that's more stable.

If it reacts a bit slower to violent forces, it "signals" the driver and gives him time to notice and maybe correct or catch it before it gets too out of shape.
It is in short EASIER to drive a car with a wheelbase between say 100"-104" AND STILL HAVE IT BE NIMBLE.

Look at the record for
Ford Sierra Cosworth (102.7" wheelbase)
Misterbitchi Gaylant (102~~is)
Sub-a-rat Le-gassy (102.5~~ish)

And you'll see that did just fine on gravel.
And it was to make them easier to drive ON ASHALT, before there were too many computers controlling the stiffness of the front, center and rear differentials that cars were made shorter such as the
Sub-a-rat Imptetzled (98.sumpin-ish)
Misterbitchi Lancer EVO (98"~~ish)
Ford Escort Cosworth (100.5")


As for the 360 or 340, they did enjoy faily good success in short closed circuit real RALLYCROSS events but there the speeds are low (under 70mph) and the curves and corner tight, so the shortness is an advantage.

Remember, racers with any brains do things for a reason so if there's an advantage in a 240 relative to the disadvantages of the 747 K-car or the 360 thing, then a half alert driver would do what works with him the best for what he's doing
 
John, you know wheelbase of 740/940 and the wagons? Seems very long wheelbase. Very stable at high speeds. The rear end seems to want to come all the way around if it comes unplanted though. Well it doesn't want to come unglued at all hardly with lsd.

I appreciate 740/940 much more than 240 because I saw them as dowdy, older, needing more work, more expensive. Don't see many of the rare 242. I had 88 244 dl cloth no ac. I respected how it was built, the quality, but wasn't pimp at all. zero pimpness. NONE. lol

A 242 updated with b230 and 740/940 newness is awesome of course. Not cheap or easy to find or to do.

I like 740/940 because they can be had for next to nothing. I do like the square styling though, and have met others who do as well. Someone who worked with me was from Romania, he wants one. Loves the squareness. Says it extremely masculine lines, lol.

Sorta reminds me of chevy eurosport, which for some strange reason I wanted growing up. Face it, older 244's are no frills, and hardly impress anyone. Resell is higher too. The 740/940 are actually well built cars and can be had for practically nothing.

I do think the wagons are my favorite though. 240 wagon a bit dowdy for me 90+ 745/945 are hot. lol What are they best suited too? High speed stability sounds like you saying?

Wheelbase anyone?
 
John, you know wheelbase of 740/940 and the wagons? Seems very long wheelbase. Very stable at high speeds. The rear end seems to want to come all the way around if it comes unplanted though. Well it doesn't want to come unglued at all hardly with lsd.

I appreciate 740/940 much more than 240 because I saw them as dowdy, older, needing more work, more expensive. Don't see many of the rare 242. I had 88 244 dl cloth no ac. I respected how it was built, the quality, but wasn't pimp at all. zero pimpness. NONE. lol

A 242 updated with b230 and 740/940 newness is awesome of course. Not cheap or easy to find or to do.

I like 740/940 because they can be had for next to nothing. I do like the square styling though, and have met others who do as well. Someone who worked with me was from Romania, he wants one. Loves the squareness. Says it extremely masculine lines, lol.

Sorta reminds me of chevy eurosport, which for some strange reason I wanted growing up. Face it, older 244's are no frills, and hardly impress anyone. Resell is higher too. The 740/940 are actually well built cars and can be had for practically nothing.

I do think the wagons are my favorite though. 240 wagon a bit dowdy for me 90+ 745/945 are hot. lol What are they best suited too? High speed stability sounds like you saying?

Wheelbase anyone?

+ eleventy billion
 
I stand corrected - shame on me, having been born and raised in Finland. I know those ball-bearing roads well, and just 80 km/h starts to seem fast on some of them (especially in a Hyundai Scoupe :p). That was one of the best parts of living in the middle of nowhere, the roads were fantastic in the sense of being challenging to drive - not very comfortable though.

I have no idea what they're driving in local level rally events now, I remember Mark II Escorts and rear-engine Fiats being da bomb...
 
John, you know wheelbase of 740/940 and the wagons? Seems very long wheelbase. Very stable at high speeds. The rear end seems to want to come all the way around if it comes unplanted though. Well it doesn't want to come unglued at all hardly with lsd.

I appreciate 740/940 much more than 240 because I saw them as dowdy, older, needing more work, more expensive. Don't see many of the rare 242. I had 88 244 dl cloth no ac. I respected how it was built, the quality, but wasn't pimp at all. zero pimpness. NONE. lol

A 242 updated with b230 and 740/940 newness is awesome of course. Not cheap or easy to find or to do.

I like 740/940 because they can be had for next to nothing. I do like the square styling though, and have met others who do as well. Someone who worked with me was from Romania, he wants one. Loves the squareness. Says it extremely masculine lines, lol.

Sorta reminds me of chevy eurosport, which for some strange reason I wanted growing up. Face it, older 244's are no frills, and hardly impress anyone. Resell is higher too. The 740/940 are actually well built cars and can be had for practically nothing.

bingo.....that is what helps make them an attractive race car...cheap enough to be "disposable" ...take a look at what makes a popular race car...cheap and plentiful...spec Miata, spec 924 (european racing), spec Boxster to name a few
I do think the wagons are my favorite though. 240 wagon a bit dowdy for me 90+ 745/945 are hot. lol What are they best suited too? High speed stability sounds like you saying?

Wheelbase anyone?

it's more than just wheelbase, it also has to do with the width/track of the vehicle in relationship to the wheelbase...according to volvocars.us , the wheelbase of the 200 cars is only 5" shorter, of course the width is narrower as well to make it have a near same wheelbase to width ratio as the 700/900 cars

700/900 = 109 wb / 57 track (f/r)
200 = 104 wb / 56/53 (f/r)

also, the height of the 200 is only 2" taller...something that can easly be fixed....

personally, I think I'd rather rally a yellow school bus than a 700/900..oh wait, wouldn't that be pretty much the same thing??? :-P
 
2xx vs 7xx who cares. a bricks a brick and when you pass some mullet in his stang or some kidd in his sooper original civic you still get that same priceless facial expression.

As far as which car is factualy a better race car.... I am not enough of an expert to say. My opinion concerning cosmetics goes to the 2xx for sedans, 9xx for wagons, and I've never met a volvo coupe that i didn't like.
 
I stand corrected - shame on me, having been born and raised in Finland. I know those ball-bearing roads well, and just 80 km/h starts to seem fast on some of them (especially in a Hyundai Scoupe :p). That was one of the best parts of living in the middle of nowhere, the roads were fantastic in the sense of being challenging to drive - not very comfortable though.

I have no idea what they're driving in local level rally events now, I remember Mark II Escorts and rear-engine Fiats being da bomb...

Hej Matti,
these days there are still loads of Escorts in GpF and GpF is the class for maybe 80-85% of people doing rally in Finland.
There have been LOTS of Toyota Starlets and Corollas with hot 4AGE 16v 1600 and larger motors,
parkarinnen.jpg

sinisalo2.jpg

and in recent years more and more BMW of various sorts.
Rear wheel Drive still rules in Finland.
Here's some incar in a Toyota 1600 16v
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klMeKm2Ye9I&mode=related&search=

Here's a good assortment of cars on a winter F cup rally:
watch

I was reading some forum where some Swedes and Finns were discussing why RWD still is the overwhelming choice in Finland while there are lots of FWD cars in Sweden, the conclusion was that the sideways style still dominant in Finland comes from the fact the rallies are still not Pace Note or Jemba Note events but still just Route Book for the co-driver and this is also the best way for people to learn to drive FAST.

And considering that little Finland has won a bit more than 50% of all World rally Championship events since the beginning of the World Championship Title began, and still often have 4-6 Finns in the top 10-12 in the WRC (compared with virtually no Swedes for years) makes me think they're doing something right back in good ol Finland.

Here's a link to the World rally Championship driver Toni Gardemeister's site with lots of photos and at the bottom links to videos showing his personal car for when he's not driving VM.
Very interesting to see what a World Championship driver spends his own money on
http://www.tonigardemeister.com/salainenkansio.php

Here's a link to some in-car action.
http://www.tonigardemeister.com/gardemeister-kouvola2006-ek3.mpg

How long you been in Texas?
 
Last edited:
So... the short version is that I should just go ahead and build a 244 like I was going to? They're still everywhere over here, and while whole 700s are also worth SFA, the body parts are still considerably more expensive and harder to find than 200 bits.

Can anyone tell me - in English - about what the Grupp H regulations allow/prohibit? The cars look to be similar to our Production Rally Cars (PRC), although we allow turbos (but if you have a turbo, you are far more restricted in terms of what you can modify).
 
Can anyone tell me - in English - about what the Grupp H regulations allow/prohibit? The cars look to be similar to our Production Rally Cars (PRC), although we allow turbos (but if you have a turbo, you are far more restricted in terms of what you can modify).

Spac

I think you will find that Group H rules allow a bit more freedom engine & bodywork wise than our PRC (from the little English stuff I have found !) Not quite the olde Aussie GrpG, but more "PRC+"

Dave
 
Back
Top