Nitpick My Engine Build

FreeEMSFred said:

Privately shared google image links, FYI. If you want a general audience you'll need to put them somewhere else.

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Weird, I had no problem doing this before...
Looks like it works now....
Google is so picky about remote loading.. gheesh!

A little while back I decided to get in a group buy for Yoshifab 8v spings.

I was a little skeptical of this kit since they were so new that no one had evidence that they were quality parts, as no source for the springs used is given.

Well, when I received them, they were rolling around loose in a small box and the retainers were rusty, also the lower spring seats are just stock seats milled down with a nasty sharp burr.

I run the retainers in a small tumbler to remove the rust, they look fine, wish I know what material and heat treatment were used.. they are listed and "hardened tool steel".
I removed the burr on the lower spring seats... all good.

And I measured seat pressure:
Yoshifab

Stock


Seat pressures look good, better than stock, fine for my low rpm engine and IPD turbo cam. But really wish the finish and packaging was better for the $$$.

Attention to detail is fantastic. Sub'd

CaseyHooligan said:

A little while back I decided to get in a group buy for Yoshifab 8v spings.

I was a little skeptical of this kit since they were so new that no one had evidence that they were quality parts, as no source for the springs used is given.

Well, when I received them, they were rolling around loose in a small box and the retainers were rusty, also the lower spring seats are just stock seats milled down with a nasty sharp burr.

I run the retainers in a small tumbler to remove the rust, they look fine, wish I know what material and heat treatment were used.. they are listed and "hardened tool steel".
I removed the burr on the lower spring seats... all good.

And I measured seat pressure:
Yoshifab

Stock

Seat pressures look good, better than stock, fine for my low rpm engine and IPD turbo cam. But really wish the finish and packaging was better for the $$$.

Click to expand...

The springs are from a reputable manufacturer. I'm not going to give out application specific info since there was a lot of time and effort invested in picking springs. Retainers are A6 tool steel hardened to 54/58 by certified metal craft in El Cajon, Ca. Not sure of the specific process used but it does leave a less aesthetic finish on the retainers. (checked my stock and they appear to have some surface rust, perhaps I need to include a silica gel pack when packaging) The seats are a Chrysler part that I buy in bulk and cut on a CNC lathe to fit the Volvo head. As for packaging, what would be more appropriate? These are expensive to make in low volume, I wish I could get the price lower but its just not possible.

If you or any of my customers ever has a question or issue with any of our products please contact me through the contact info on yoshifab.com. I really do strive to put the best products possible out there. This stuff is all super small runs and unless I get feedback I have no idea anything needs to be fixed. I am far to busy to surf the forums anymore and I get to find out about these concerns from a third party linking me to this post.

Your build looks very thorough. I will be interested to see where it ends up.

sdturbo said:

The springs are from a reputable manufacturer. I'm not going to give out application specific info since there was a lot of time and effort invested in picking springs. Retainers are A6 tool steel hardened to 54/58 by certified metal craft in El Cajon, Ca. Not sure of the specific process used but it does leave a less aesthetic finish on the retainers. (checked my stock and they appear to have some surface rust, perhaps I need to include a silica gel pack when packaging) The seats are a Chrysler part that I buy in bulk and cut on a CNC lathe to fit the Volvo head. As for packaging, what would be more appropriate? These are expensive to make in low volume, I wish I could get the price lower but its just not possible.

If you or any of my customers ever has a question or issue with any of our products please contact me through the contact info on yoshifab.com. I really do strive to put the best products possible out there. This stuff is all super small runs and unless I get feedback I have no idea anything needs to be fixed. I am far to busy to surf the forums anymore and I get to find out about these concerns from a third party linking me to this post.

Your build looks very thorough. I will be interested to see where it ends up.

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Wow Josh,
You are certainly paying attention! Thanks for the clarification.
I understand completely that you're not getting rich off selling Volvo performance parts, and I am pleased that you are making an effort to supply our (obscure and low volume) needs.
I also hope you don't take offense at my posts, I try to give my honest opinion and I can be a bit picky about things but it's meant to be constructive and helpful to other people.

But since your listening, I'm very happy with your products and I'm obviously using them in my build. However, I feel like you could improve the packaging a bit, it would go a long way towards conveying a sense of care and pride in your products. simple things like separating the components so they don't rub against each other in shipping and making sure components are clean, rust and burr free.
In case of the spring kit, like you said, include a silica gel pack or apply a rust inhibitor pre-packaging. Also maybe try separating the springs with a strip of brown paper so they don't rub and nick each other, which is REALLY bad for springs.
You got the engineering right, the materials right, the price right, the REALLY important stuff is right, just finish quality and packaging need a little help.

I suppose a really good example of quality part and packaging would be the Nuke components you sell, I get all warm and fuzzy when I get anything made by Nuke. Yes they cost $$$ but worth it.
Josh, your stuff if worth it so even if you have to charge a little more to go all the way, I say do it.

CaseyHooligan said:

Wow Josh,
You are certainly paying attention! Thanks for the clarification.
I understand completely that you're not getting rich off selling Volvo performance parts, and I am pleased that you are making an effort to supply our (obscure and low volume) needs.
I also hope you don't take offense at my posts, I try to give my honest opinion and I can be a bit picky about things but it's meant to be constructive and helpful to other people.

But since your listening, I'm very happy with your products and I'm obviously using them in my build. However, I feel like you could improve the packaging a bit, it would go a long way towards conveying a sense of care and pride in your products. simple things like separating the components so they don't rub against each other in shipping and making sure components are clean, rust and burr free.
In case of the spring kit, like you said, include a silica gel pack or apply a rust inhibitor pre-packaging. Also maybe try separating the springs with a strip of brown paper so they don't rub and nick each other, which is REALLY bad for springs.
You got the engineering right, the materials right, the price right, the REALLY important stuff is right, just finish quality and packaging need a little help.

I suppose a really good example of quality part and packaging would be the Nuke components you sell, I get all warm and fuzzy when I get anything made by Nuke. Yes they cost $$$ but worth it.
Josh, your stuff if worth it so even if you have to charge a little more to go all the way, I say do it.

Click to expand...

Nuke puts a LOT into their packaging and it is quite nice. Unfortunately they have also taken some short cuts in products (cheap chrome plated hardware) and not making things like brackets to mount fuel rails etc. I just cannot bring myself to add that much to the cost of my products with warm and fuzzy packaging. I will implement some rust prevention on retainers from here on out. Interesting about the spring packaging, we get our 16v springs from a OE supplier and they are packaged very similar to our 8v spring sets.

No offense taken with the post, but with such a small market I want to be sure and defend what I feel is a solid product.

CaseyHooligan said:

I bought a 90' 740ti for way too much, drove it for a year and now it's getting a full engine rebuild, OCD factor 10.
Engine that came out was a B230FT, but non-squirter, skinny rods and main thrust in the wrong spot.
Long story short, I bought a complete "low miles" FT from a 94-940.. pulled it apart and in the process of over-thinking the rebuild.
I'm no stranger to engine building or machining in general but I want to be nit-picked and criticized in my decision making process.

I've set a "fuzzy" eventual goal of around double the HP and Torque of the stock engine.
Say about 300Hp and 360ft/lbs of torque, preferably lower in the RPM range with LOTS of power under the curve.
Quick spooling, lots of low-mid range torque, quick off the line.
My plan will include new and larger everything...
-Larger turbo, but not too big!(GTX2860R, PT4831B, EVO8 TD05, BW 6258)
-Larger intercooler
-Aftermarket EMS(?)
-Water/Meth injection
-Fabricated 3"+ exhaust
-Fabricated header
-Stronger transmission(T5, TH350?)
-Stronger ignition(MSD 6A with BTM or ?)
-Stronger engine/trans mounts

Engine is a 1994 B230FT low miles Squirter block with:
-Wiseco pistons and rings, custom crown pocket spec'd by RSI(RIP), about 9.4:1 with stock head volume.
-H-Beam rods 158mm Also spec'd by RSI, ARP fasteners.
-Stock Crank, micro polished journals, balanced.
-Cometic MLS head gasket(thickness TBD)
-ARP Main and Head studs, supplied by Yoshifab
-530 head casting, will be modified(unshrouding, CC adjustments)
-46mm intake valves(REV)
-38mm exhaust valves(REV)
-Yoshifab springs and retainers
-Ipd Turbo Cam
I'll expand this list and add detail as the build progresses.

As of 9/6/2016:
So Far I've got the short block together and starting the head rebuilding.

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stupid question:
What is the summit tool do/used for?
love the thread. Anthony.

vegasbrick said:

stupid question:
What is the summit tool do/used for?
love the thread. Anthony.

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It's a ring grinder/file to set the ring gap.

I like the piston ring compressor. Is that a weisco tool? We have a bunch of them for our engines, but didn't think they'd make one big enough for a B230 bottom end.

Jordan

sdturbo said:

Nuke puts a LOT into their packaging and it is quite nice. Unfortunately they have also taken some short cuts in products (cheap chrome plated hardware) and not making things like brackets to mount fuel rails etc. I just cannot bring myself to add that much to the cost of my products with warm and fuzzy packaging. I will implement some rust prevention on retainers from here on out. Interesting about the spring packaging, we get our 16v springs from a OE supplier and they are packaged very similar to our 8v spring sets.

No offense taken with the post, but with such a small market I want to be sure and defend what I feel is a solid product.

Click to expand...

Fair enough, at least you don't have any competition to deal with on most items.
You do have solid products, just try and package them better and they would be great products. If not warm and fuzzy, at least protective packaging.
You do get props for sending stuff out quickly now.

GTJordan said:

I like the piston ring compressor. Is that a weisco tool? We have a bunch of them for our engines, but didn't think they'd make one big enough for a B230 bottom end.

Jordan

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Jordan, it's an adjustable ring compressor but Summit does carry solid ones in usable sizes.

Oil Pumps, What to do?...
No real aftermarket performance oriented pumps out there, so choices are limited to various stock aftermarket pumps and Volvo OEM.
The low cost of aftermarket pumps is REAL tempting but I went ahead and blew a wad on Volvo OEM from Ipd, luckily it was purchased during a sale so I got it for $413.06(item#120580). That's a good deal of money for what you get in my opinion.

But in the absence of any better quality alternatives, I'm stuck with this.
I'm tempted to purchase an MTC pump just to see what the differences are..
With all the aftermarket re-boxing and brand confusion, It's not easy to understand what you will be getting when buying a new oil pump.

This is what I got:
Clearances are .011"(.2794mm) between gears and .003"(.0762mm) Gear to housing.
I'm sure it would work and function ok, but in comparison to two used pumps from the factory, It's build quality seems to be suffering.

It's obviously Die-cast Aluminum but low quality, it appears that the die had significant wear as the part lines were wide and rough, almost no deburing was done on the casting or post machining. The gears are fairly rough, the ends show a good deal of roughness from machining. I think I could use as-is, but the pump may not last as long?
The inlet strainer looks to be thin and cheap compared to my factory units.
In terms of design, It's about as simple as you can get, especially with no shaft support in the cover and an integrated pick-up tube that resides in the front/Right corner of the pan.
Also, the inlet screen retainer was dented and razor sharp around the inlet hole.

The two used factory pumps I have were functioning fine with clearances of:
1990' 230K+miles, .018"(.457mm) Between gears, .005"(.125mm) Gear to housing.
1995' 60K+miles, .0155"(.385mm) Between gears, .004"(.102mm) Gear to housing.

My plan is to go through a laundry list of improvements that can be made to this pump.
Please, if you have suggestions, Let me know!

What's wrong with the Melling oil pump? It's a high volume pump made in the USA and it's 1/3 the price of OE.

http://www.autozone.com/external-engine/oil-pump/melling-oil-pump/179347_0_0/?fromString=search&make=&model=&year=&checkfit=true

hiperfauto said:

What's wrong with the Melling oil pump? It's a high volume pump made in the USA and it's 1/3 the price of OE.

http://www.autozone.com/external-engine/oil-pump/melling-oil-pump/179347_0_0/?fromString=search&make=&model=&year=&checkfit=true

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Dont know if there is anything wrong with it.. Might be better that OEM?

The casting is a lot rougher on the Melling pump, I'll give you that. I haven't taken them apart to compare innards, but I can if you're interested.

Well, It looks like cast aluminum, and a bit thicker as well.
It actually looks like a better start for an improved pump.
I am curious if the tolerances are better, If you get a chance, can you disassemble?

Absolutely, +1, pretty please!

Thanks for posting all of that detail! Could you add the width and peak to peak diameter of the gears? Maybe ID of them, too?

I'm also not clear if you're attempting to measure end clearance to the housing or gear peak to housing clearance? If so, what's the other like? I guess the gear tip clearance might be slightly tricky to read accurately.

FreeEMSFred said:

Absolutely, +1, pretty please!

Thanks for posting all of that detail! Could you add the width and peak to peak diameter of the gears? Maybe ID of them, too?

I'm also not clear if you're attempting to measure end clearance to the housing or gear peak to housing clearance? If so, what's the other like? I guess the gear tip clearance might be slightly tricky to read accurately.

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Axial play(End of gear to cover) and Axial play(Gear peak to housing bore).
All done with simple feeler gauges. Measuring tooth form and major diameter will be done later I suppose if I feel like torturing myself with making an oil pump from scratch!

CaseyHooligan said:

Axial play(End of gear to cover) and Axial play(Gear peak to housing bore).
All done with simple feeler gauges.

Click to expand...

CaseyHooligan said:

This is what I got:
Clearances are .011"(.2794mm) between gears and .003"(.0762mm) Gear to housing.
<snip>
The two used factory pumps I have were functioning fine with clearances of:
1990' 230K+miles, .018"(.457mm) Between gears, .005"(.125mm) Gear to housing.
1995' 60K+miles, .0155"(.385mm) Between gears, .004"(.102mm) Gear to housing.

Click to expand...

Comparing quote two with quote one, I'm none the wiser. Referring your green book table, what is "gear to housing" in Volvo terms? Axial play (what I called end clearance), or Radial play (what I called gear peak to housing clearance)? Presumably "Between gears" is Volvo's "Gear flank play", no worries there.

Or are you saying both plays were miraculously identical numbers so you just gave one?

CaseyHooligan said:

Measuring tooth form and major diameter will be done later I suppose if I feel like torturing myself with making an oil pump from scratch!

Click to expand...

No worries, I've only got used ones, so I'll be pulling them apart before I do anything else, anyway. Will measure then - and calculate flow (unless someone else already did this).

http://www.swedishbricks.net/700900FAQ/Engine-Lubrication1.html#Oil Pump: Wear and Replacement

"Oil Pump: Wear and Replacement. [Tip from Dick Riess] Paul Despres posted a note on in-the-car oil pump replacement in a 200 series. This stimulated me to try a 700 and 900 series.
Problems: Cold idle 1.5 bar
Hot Idle: less than .5 bar
Cold at 2000 rpm, 2 bar +
Hot at 2000 rpm l.5 bar
Not good and below spec.
Engine approx 130K. This is a turbo running Mobil l.
Followed the Volvo manual and changed out pump in approx 6 hours after fabricating a jig to hold the engine up slightly. Built out of 2x6 yellow pine, a couple of chain repair links and a 1/4 inch hook eye. [Editor: See note following these instructions]
Instructions:
Take off license plate and bracket so you don't make new holes in your body. Place car on jacks. Locate them on box frame just before the box slopes and becomes small. Take off belly pan. Unbolt sway bar at frame only. Undo steering shaft at U joints and slip upward. Remove negative cable from battery. Remove intake hose (turbo) from intercooler to intake manifold. Loosen power steering reservoir. Clip tie holding hose to motor mount. Under engine, remove nuts and bolt from bottom of pass. side motor mount. Remove entire motor mount series of bolts and nuts, 6 total. Snug up and lift slightly on engine jig. I used a nut to tighten and lift the hook eye connected to the lift hook on the thermostat housing. Unbolt the frame, 4 bolts. It will drop slightly. Undo bolts and remove the reinforcement plate between engine and bellhousing. Remove motor mount from the driver side. No need to remove actual rubber from metal portions. Unbolt oil pan, drop and rotate nose toward the driver side (this is why you remove the motor mount. Remove oil pump, replace with new one and new rubber O rings on feeder pipe. Lube rings with oil or Vaseline to help with reassembly. Carefully reassemble pump to block aligning pump driving shaft with driving shaft from engine. Clean pan and gasket leftovers. You can also replace your rod bearings if you want. I did on one of the cars---less than an extra $30 using a standard size. Reassemble.
Results:
Cold idle: 4 bars
Cold 2000 rpm: 4.5-5 bars
Hot idle: 3.5-4 bars
Hot 2000 rpm: 4.5 bars
As Paul experienced, both engines (B230FT) are much quieter re: piston slap. I used a Febi Bilstein HD pump in both. Cost approx $120 without rod bearings and approx $150 with bearings. This is not a bad job to do and may prevent some major blowups on engines which are good, but have a failing oil pump. So far I have a series of 5 oil pumps which I have replaced either rebuilding an engine or as this and all show the same wear pattern. Mileage usually in the 125-150K. All turbos. Believe they are wear items.

[Editor's Note] Dick swapped the pump because after dropping the pan, a $100 pump replacement did not seem to be a big expense and would certainly eliminate any uncertainty. If you remove your pump, note that clearance between oil pump gear teeth should be between 0.15-0.35mm, and axial clearance between the end of the gear and a straightedge across the face between 0.02 -0.12mm. The relief valve spring, which is highly suspect in low oil pressure conditions, should compress from 39.2mm to 26.25mm under a load of 46-54 N (10-12lbs) and to 21.0mm under a load of 62-78 N (13.6-17.2 lbs.) If you have a low oil pressure problem, try replacing the spring before you conclude the pump is bad. Also, make sure the drive shaft cog teeth are intact and not fractured. IPD sells a reinforcing ring for this drive and if you have the pump out of the engine it is worth installing. Use new delivery tube seals on reinstallation. "