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Old 06-11-2018, 09:03 PM   #1
miguels244
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Default Which Red Block for a starting point.

The B23 has bigger bearings.
The later B230 has squirrters.

Would the B23 with squirrters added be the stronger ticket?

Or does it really matter.
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Old 06-11-2018, 09:19 PM   #2
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In before "what are your goals noob!?"
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Old 06-11-2018, 09:45 PM   #3
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In before "what are your goals noob!?"
^^

The weight of the B23 rotating assembly is ridiculous. I'd vote B230 in any situation.
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Old 06-11-2018, 10:20 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miguels244 View Post
The B23 has bigger bearings.
The later B230 has squirrters.

Would the B23 with squirrters added be the stronger ticket?

Or does it really matter.
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Originally Posted by TurboDenny View Post
^^

The weight of the B23 rotating assembly is ridiculous. I'd vote B230 in any situation.
Bigger bearings aren't necessarily good...higher baring speed as function of diameter..
B20/B21/B23 mains are 2.5" which is close enough to gaddammit to mysterious start date B230s anyway.. so BFD

B20/B21/B23 ROTATING assembly is not ridiculous...
Especially if one thinks of crankshaft and flywheel and pulleys (plus 1/2 or rod weight)>

B21/B23 reciprocating weight is flat stupid...especially the pistons... A mere cursory glance should tell you why.

Depending on what you plan this all may be moot...
But in any case I wouldn't give it a thought..for a decent built you do the same thing anyway but for opposite reasons...
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Old 06-11-2018, 10:45 PM   #5
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Old 06-11-2018, 11:53 PM   #6
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I would suggest any motor you build up add the squirters. Also add the lighter aftermarket rods and pistons if you are going for a long lasting powerful engine.

I like the B21 engines and when I finally friggin build something it will have the above upgrades to a 84 B21FT block.
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Old 06-12-2018, 01:33 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by dl242gt View Post
I would suggest any motor you build up add the squirters. Also add the lighter aftermarket rods and pistons if you are going for a long lasting powerful engine.

I like the B21 engines and when I finally friggin build something it will have the above upgrades to a 84 B21FT block.
Agreed, its so simple..why wouldn't you?

By the way I check offical weight of B21/B23 crank...16,4 kg

But if that is "TOOOOOoooooooooOOO Much!!" nothing stopping anybody from checking in a lathe and reducing the counterweight OD a little..

Just for reference, the car built with one purpose in mind, beating Volvo B21 powered ETCC cars---and which did in fact stomp 'em to death---its crank weighs 14,1 kg

With all the ex-spurts around Shirley somebody must have the weight of the B230 crank handy and could post it..
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Old 06-12-2018, 12:12 PM   #8
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B21 bore is a little better for boost, less time for flame front to reach the edge, or so I've been told, I'm no expert.
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Old 06-12-2018, 12:16 PM   #9
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Agreed, its so simple..why wouldn't you?

By the way I check offical weight of B21/B23 crank...16,4 kg

But if that is "TOOOOOoooooooooOOO Much!!" nothing stopping anybody from checking in a lathe and reducing the counterweight OD a little..

Just for reference, the car built with one purpose in mind, beating Volvo B21 powered ETCC cars---and which did in fact stomp 'em to death---its crank weighs 14,1 kg

With all the ex-spurts around Shirley somebody must have the weight of the B230 crank handy and could post it..
I found weight of aftermarket lightweight billet B230 crankshaft listed as 41 pounds.
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Old 06-12-2018, 12:42 PM   #10
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Ok serious question.

Aren't we deeeeep into the laws of diminishing marginal returns? I mean building the ultimate redblock is worth considering I guess but if you're really peeling the motor apart to swap to different cranks/pistons/rods mixing and matching between motors... why not go aftermarket or whiteblock?
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Old 06-12-2018, 01:03 PM   #11
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Ok serious question.

Aren't we deeeeep into the laws of diminishing marginal returns? I mean building the ultimate redblock is worth considering I guess but if you're really peeling the motor apart to swap to different cranks/pistons/rods mixing and matching between motors... why not go aftermarket or whiteblock?
Why curse yourself with a difficult to maintain whiteblock, you have to take the cams out to take off the valve cover don't you? Maybe I'm mistaken, I've never touched one with a wrench.
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Old 06-12-2018, 03:15 PM   #12
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The question rises from the fact I want a 240 with the b23...
Does that mean I’ll have to source a different block for a later build...

JVL...I’m an old school guy, I like big bearings because I like low rpm grunt and simple toughness.

Damn near nothing will make these mills anything but tractor motors anyway, so I’ll take a little toughness in exchange for a few hp above 5k.
Recipe weight on the other hand...that’s a slightly different story on a four banger.

Now...
Where could I find a lathe to turn down the counter weights to reduce the rotating mass?


From a practice stand point...
The B23 no longer has stock pistons available, but the B230 does last time I checked.
A basic solid rebuild of either will handle 300 hp.

Last edited by miguels244; 06-12-2018 at 03:21 PM..
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Old 06-12-2018, 03:47 PM   #13
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A basic solid rebuild of either will handle 300 hp.
As will a junkyard engine in good shape.....
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Old 06-12-2018, 03:55 PM   #14
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JVL...Iím an old school guy, I like big bearings because I like low rpm grunt and simple toughness.

Damn near nothing will make these mills anything but tractor motors anyway, so Iíll take a little toughness in exchange for a few hp above 5k.
Recipe weight on the other hand...thatís a slightly different story on a four banger.
.
I suggested think of a lathe ----chuck speed for a 1" dia piece of steel might be 1000 rpm, while chuck speed for a 14" piece might be 180..
For given rpm the liner feet per minte passing the tool at 0,5 radius is XXX inches per minute, the linear speed at 7" is a inch dimensioned sh!t-ton higher..That why we slow the chuck down...
So higher speeds ---all things being equal (like material strength) a smaller journal lives better-er-er..
That's why Chevy guys like the old 2" rod journal, rather than the later 2.1 and why Ford guys would buy rods with 2" Chevy journal and why the hot thing in the last 15+ years has been the so called "Honda Journal at 48mm....
It is also why Volvo themselves ruduced rod jounral from 54 all the way down to 49mm. Lower "bearing speed" at any given RPM.

And why Mistubishi G32 2,0 and 2,6 went down from huge to 50mm and went even lower to like 46mm for the 4G63

And why on my own race motor I went from 54 to 50..

Why everybody reduced journal diameter on everything...and they all live better...
Especially if ever subjected to revs..
The lighter weight--and less stress, less vibration is icing on the cake.

The ONE thing to transform the redblock into a modern engine is reducing reciprocating weight...either B23 or B230..
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Old 06-12-2018, 04:06 PM   #15
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I suggested think of a lathe ----chuck speed for a 1" dia piece of steel might be 1000 rpm, while chuck speed for a 14" piece might be 180..
For given rpm the liner feet per minte passing the tool at 0,5 radius is XXX inches per minute, the linear speed at 7" is a inch dimensioned sh!t-ton higher..That why we slow the chuck down...
So higher speeds ---all things being equal (like material strength) a smaller journal lives better-er-er..
That's why Chevy guys like the old 2" rod journal, rather than the later 2.1 and why Ford guys would buy rods with 2" Chevy journal and why the hot thing in the last 15+ years has been the so called "Honda Journal at 48mm....
It is also why Volvo themselves ruduced rod jounral from 54 all the way down to 49mm. Lower "bearing speed" at any given RPM.

And why Mistubishi G32 2,0 and 2,6 went down from huge to 50mm and went even lower to like 46mm for the 4G63

And why on my own race motor I went from 54 to 50..

Why everybody reduced journal diameter on everything...and they all live better...
Especially if ever subjected to revs..
The lighter weight--and less stress, less vibration is icing on the cake.

The ONE thing to transform the redblock into a modern engine is reducing reciprocating weight...either B23 or B230..
Thatís for revs...
As I noted, I like grunt and toughness.
The reduced diameter is for surface speed and recip weight.
The slow motors use big journals for a reason.

Just a difference in application.

Remember also that new materials make a hell of a difference.

Anyhoo...
It looks like it really doesnít matter all that much, except I canít get a simple rebuild kit for a B23, but maybe still can for a b230.
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Old 06-12-2018, 04:31 PM   #16
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If you like torque why not think 2.5L stroker crank from Volvo Penta AQ151 engine?
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Old 06-12-2018, 04:37 PM   #17
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If you like torque why not think 2.5L stroker crank from Volvo Penta AQ151 engine?
This, And N/A or custom pistons that net a 9.5:1 CR. Turbo, 2.5 L crank, N/A pistons would be a stoplight burner for sure. Are there other ways to do this? Sure, But this is the way I would build a beefy Redblock (other than painting a LS red and shoving it in)
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Old 06-12-2018, 05:06 PM   #18
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If you like torque why not think 2.5L stroker crank from Volvo Penta AQ151 engine?
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Originally Posted by Uncleknucklez View Post
This, And N/A or custom pistons that net a 9.5:1 CR. Turbo, 2.5 L crank, N/A pistons would be a stoplight burner for sure. Are there other ways to do this? Sure, But this is the way I would build a beefy Redblock (other than painting a LS red and shoving it in)
Stock 10.3 to 1 b23 with a k series Mercedes sc...
But again...you canít get a stock rebuild kit for the B23.
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Old 06-12-2018, 06:53 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by miguels244 View Post
Thatís for revs...
As I noted, I like grunt and toughness.
The reduced diameter is for surface speed and recip weight.
The slow motors use big journals for a reason.

Just a difference in application.

Remember also that new materials make a hell of a difference.

Anyhoo...
It looks like it really doesnít matter all that much, except I canít get a simple rebuild kit for a B23, but maybe still can for a b230.
Grunt is a function of engine volume and how much it POPS....via high cr or CR + more volume of air (and matching fuel) you cram in which really is effectively CR in another form..
And where it goes all grunty is down to cam.

Get some rods and decent forged pistons..You're not broke.. It does transform the motor, even off boost...and then you have a big margin of safety..

(You could ask why Ford in the redblocks kissing cousin the Lima 2300 SOHC turbo 8v went forged pistons for a measly 175 hp and 195 ft/lbs, or Volvo in some B23s or Ford in that 2,0 DOHC 16v thing I like (but can't name because it would trigger all the snowflakes)which had a mere 205 hp for early and 225hp for later...why did they do that? Sure some obsessive-compulisve 25+ years of tuning guys in Sweden have made beucoup HPs with standard stuff, but you know full well one thing doesn't work perfectly and it goes boom..)(It is the stingy man who pays the most)
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Old 06-12-2018, 06:59 PM   #20
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If you like torque why not think 2.5L stroker crank from Volvo Penta AQ151 engine?

because stroke alone does only one thing....more rotating weight.. because the joural is further from the center of crank--that is the definition of stroke..

Its easy to see with a simple thought exercise.

take one 2.5 with 100mm stroke and 5.2 in compression..and XX cam
Take another with 72mm stroke but 11.3 in compression..and XX cam

Pretty easy to see which is going to make more torque.
Torque is incidental to POP! Pop being what happens when you squeeze the contents of the cylinder and light it off..

I am always thinking of making more POP per pop...
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Old 06-12-2018, 08:49 PM   #21
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because stroke alone does only one thing....more rotating weight.. because the joural is further from the center of crank--that is the definition of stroke..

Its easy to see with a simple thought exercise.

take one 2.5 with 100mm stroke and 5.2 in compression..and XX cam
Take another with 72mm stroke but 11.3 in compression..and XX cam

Pretty easy to see which is going to make more torque.
Torque is incidental to POP! Pop being what happens when you squeeze the contents of the cylinder and light it off..

I am always thinking of making more POP per pop...
Stroke makes volume.
Long rod long stroke motors make more torque all else being equal.
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Old 06-12-2018, 10:52 PM   #22
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Stroke makes volume.
Long rod long stroke motors make more torque all else being equal.
Who are you mansplaining this to Miguel?

You changed the premise. Long rods DO make moar torx..

Much blah blah over the last 50 years about long stroke vs short stroke..So much BS...
But there is no argument about serious weight reduction in reciprocating weight..
In the trade press 70-100g reduction gets several !!!s..
450g just gets the engine builder guys I know to giggling.
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Old 06-13-2018, 02:44 PM   #23
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Who are you mansplaining this to Miguel?

You changed the premise. Long rods DO make moar torx..

Much blah blah over the last 50 years about long stroke vs short stroke..So much BS...
But there is no argument about serious weight reduction in reciprocating weight..
In the trade press 70-100g reduction gets several !!!s..
450g just gets the engine builder guys I know to giggling.
You...
For saying stroke only increases mass.
It also increases displacement.
If you don’t change anything it also changes CR.

Truth is if you want long rod ratios the simpler route is de stroke.
Packing a big crank and long rods into a crank case can get tricky.

None of which is Germaine to my original question.
The answer is that...
No, there is no reason either base motor is fundamentally better for a rebuild...unless you are trying for a stock rebuild, in which case you can probably still get stock rebuild kits.
That’s assuming you are willing to put squirrels in an old block...
Which reminds me.
Is the squirted jig you built still floating around?
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Old 06-13-2018, 04:41 PM   #24
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[fwiw - the '93 940 at the https://upullandpay.com/denver/search-inventory/ is a turbo, and was intact this last weekend, but I don't know if it's a squirter block.]
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Old 06-13-2018, 05:11 PM   #25
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[fwiw - the '93 940 at the https://upullandpay.com/denver/search-inventory/ is a turbo, and was intact this last weekend, but I don't know if it's a squirter block.]
Thanks...
Maybe Iíll go pull some +t bits for future use.
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