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Radiator opinions

I don't understand the real reason why volvo chose 150kPa pressure

They can run them hotter without boiling, and maybe have better emissions? Super dumb IMO. It?s an old tractor engine, happy at ~190F, not 230F that efan cars run at. That?s why efan cars that aren?t enthusiast owned are always out of coolant with leaking heater control valves. Pieces of junk.
 
They can run them hotter without boiling, and maybe have better emissions? Super dumb IMO. It?s an old tractor engine, happy at ~190F, not 230F that efan cars run at. That?s why efan cars that aren?t enthusiast owned are always out of coolant with leaking heater control valves. Pieces of junk.

They don't run at 230 degrees. When that cooling system is working properly they run between 190-210. It is better for emissions and fuel mileage. If you properly maintained your car it would be of no concern to you at all. An LSX engine is designed to run at 200+ degrees and does it all day long. 27 MPG on my 2002 Z28 with an automatic transmission and 325 HP on tap. The manual trans cars get 29 MPG. The engineers knew what they were doing.
 
They don't run at 230 degrees. When that cooling system is working properly they run between 190-210. It is better for emissions and fuel mileage. If you properly maintained your car it would be of no concern to you at all. An LSX engine is designed to run at 200+ degrees and does it all day long. 27 MPG on my 2002 Z28 with an automatic transmission and 325 HP on tap. The manual trans cars get 29 MPG. The engineers knew what they were doing.

My cars are extremely well maintained, thank you. And yes, they do run at roughly 230F if idled, which is way too hot for any aluminum head and iron block as far as I'm concerned. If they were designed to run that hot, we would use 200F+ thermostats. It's a tractor engine, and they are happiest hovering at 200F.

I have verified on more than one occasion that regina equipped cars don't kick on the fan until about 230F. Of course, cars aren't really designed to be idled, they're designed to be driven

99% of what GM produces is complete junk anyway. So saying that your LS1 car runs at that temp does not prove anything. And to trust the gauges in ANY GM car is idiotic. Hook up your scan tools verify coolant temps.
 
Sorry numb nuts. That's what an LS is designed to run at. Your car may run at 230 degrees. I've had close to 300 redblock Volvos and not one of them ran that hot. The gages in my Camaros are very accurate. All 10 of them that I have owned agreed with each other. They will hit 230 after a hard 2 minute Autocross run and then cool right back down while sitting there idling waiting for my next run. That's what the electric fans are for. So, explain why when your well maintained Volvo is idling, making zero power it is running at 230 degrees. Hook up a scan tool? That's absolute genius. Where do you think it is getting its coolant temperature information from?
 
Sorry numb nuts. That's what an LS is designed to run at. Your car may run at 230 degrees. I've had close to 300 redblock Volvos and not one of them ran that hot. The gages in my Camaros are very accurate. All 10 of them that I have owned agreed with each other. They will hit 230 after a hard 2 minute Autocross run and then cool right back down while sitting there idling waiting for my next run. That's what the electric fans are for. So, explain why when your well maintained Volvo is idling, making zero power it is running at 230 degrees. Hook up a scan tool? That's absolute genius. Where do you think it is getting its coolant temperature information from?

You also are the same person who insists that a GM northstar is a good engine because you mom had one and it got 'really good fuel economy'. That's a simple biased sample fallacy. Everyone knows they are junk and it took GM how many years to make a northstar that didn't rip those puny head bolts out of the block? That's right, 11 years. No big deal though all you have to do to fix GMs **** ups is pull the engine, disassemble, drill out your block for the proper LS sized head studs, and toss it back together.

And no, I have verified temps with a calibrated infrared thermometer. The fact that your car gets 'hot' during a TWO MINUTE abuse session says your cooling system is ****. I can hold 2nd gear burnouts until tires pop on a junkyard turbo 240 with a clutch fan and maintain 200F coolant temps. GM runs their **** hot for economy/power sure, but certainly not for longevity.
 
And yes, maybe the LS is DESIGNED to run at those temps, redblocks aren't. They changed absolutely nothing about redblocks, but omitted the clutch fan for an efan.
 
Yes, redblocks are designed to run that warm. That isn’t hot by any means. Do a little research on combustion efficiency and you might learn something instead of just making it up as you post. The thermostat opening temperature for a redblock is basically unchanged for the last 30 years. The electric cooling fan arrangement is much more efficient than the mechanical fan. The radiator is huge by comparison. Most of my electric fan and equipped cars don’t even turn the fan on unless I am in traffic with the AC on.
 
Yes, redblocks are designed to run that warm. That isn’t hot by any means. Do a little research on combustion efficiency and you might learn something instead of just making it up as you post. The thermostat opening temperature for a redblock is basically unchanged for the last 30 years. The electric cooling fan arrangement is much more efficient than the mechanical fan. The radiator is huge by comparison. Most of my electric fan and equipped cars don’t even turn the fan on unless I am in traffic with the AC on.

There’s that word again. I don't give a **** about efficiency and neither do most people. But dang it sure helps sell a car doesn’t it? I’ll opt for reliability over efficiency any day.

And yes, Volvo used a much larger radiator on efan cars because they don’t want to use that fan unless absolutely necessary, so they used a huge radiator in hopes that it’ll do the job of keeping the engine cool. Temps creep up and up unless you’re constantly moving.

Your LS car gets to 230F after 2 minutes of abuse and you have to let it sit there and idle to get back down to where it 'should' be.

See if you can follow this. I have to pull in to the grid because my time on the course is over. We take turns running the course. My cooling system is working perfectly. Just like it does in my Mustang GT. 20 minute sessions at high throttle settings on Oregon Raceway Park road race course didn't even cause the gage to move off center. The car has the performance package, which includes an oil cooler and larger radiator. The Camaro SS is the same way. Designed to run at high speed for extended periods. It doesn't heat up or overheat. It also starts out at much higher temperatures than older cars. That is because engineers understand what is going on with the internal combustion engine. My 2017 GT makes 435 HP and will pull 29 MPG at 65 MPH. The 2018-19 5.0 makes 460 HP. See what efficiency can do for an engine?
 
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Can you explain why they used the 150kpa cap on 7/9 cars and ran them way hotter? I guess for a negligible amount of better efficiency at the cost of: leaky heater control valves which in turn cause you to run out of coolant and toast your engine. The Redblock car was founded on simplicity, not efficiency.
 
None of this conversation actually matters.

OP, get the cheapest aluminum+plastic rad off rock auto and don’t over think it. They are absolutely sufficient at keeping 100hp cool, no matter what you’re doing.
 
You also are the same person who insists that a GM northstar is a good engine because you mom had one and it got 'really good fuel economy'. That's a simple biased sample fallacy. Everyone knows they are junk and it took GM how many years to make a northstar that didn't rip those puny head bolts out of the block? That's right, 11 years. No big deal though all you have to do to fix GMs **** ups is pull the engine, disassemble, drill out your block for the proper LS sized head studs, and toss it back together.

And no, I have verified temps with a calibrated infrared thermometer. The fact that your car gets 'hot' during a TWO MINUTE abuse session says your cooling system is ****. I can hold 2nd gear burnouts until tires pop on a junkyard turbo 240 with a clutch fan and maintain 200F coolant temps. GM runs their **** hot for economy/power sure, but certainly not for longevity.

Right. Back yard hack. Do a burn out until the tires pop. Run an engine with no coolant to see how long it lasts. More of the same kind of stuff people tune in to jackass to watch. Try running a redblock for a sustained 30 minute heat road racing and see where your temperatures climb to. Oh, wait a minute, you have never done anything like that. You have zero basis for actually heat soaking a cooling system. A 2 minute near wide open run will generate a lot of heat. The Z28 fans aren't even designed to come on until 215+ degrees. The second fan kicks in at ~ 230. By the time I pull back in to the grid, they are just coming on. The cooling system is doing exactly what it was designed to do. I know that's flying so far over your head you can't even grasp what is going on. Kind of like a spy run with an SR-71.

If you did a bit of research on the Northstar you would realize GM corrected the head bolt issue. The problem was highly exaggerated. Those engines were a highly efficient engine. 30+ MPG in a 6000 lb vehicle is impressive. That, and 300 hp. Three for three with zero problems. Yeah, they were such a terrible design.
 
None of this conversation actually matters.

OP, get the cheapest aluminum+plastic rad off rock auto and don?t over think it. They are absolutely sufficient at keeping 100hp cool, no matter what you?re doing.

Wrong. Go run your 240 flat out for 30 minutes on a hot day and see what that temperature gage says. Tony, (reeferman) would disagree with you and he actually ran his 240 like that regularly. He finally went away from the stocker aluminum radiator when his temps were hitting a sustained 250 degrees for the majority of his sessions. He sent someone down to pick up a nice Nissens 3 row brass/copper core radiator I had and his temps dropped to 200 degrees that weekend. For a typical 240, the stock radiator is fine. Make a record 2 minute hill climb run, not even close to enough cooling capacity with that 2 row aluminum core. For the OP, I would snatch up an all metal radiator if possible if he plans to keep the car. A plastic radiator is designed to run 10 years or less.

Efficiency does matter. HP is efficiency. They are the one and same thing. That concept is completely wasted on you.
 
Right. Back yard hack. Do a burn out until the tires pop. Run an engine with no coolant to see how long it lasts. More of the same kind of stuff people tune in to jackass to watch. Try running a redblock for a sustained 30 minute heat road racing and see where your temperatures climb to. Oh, wait a minute, you have never done anything like that. You have zero basis for actually heat soaking a cooling system. A 2 minute near wide open run will generate a lot of heat. The Z28 fans aren't even designed to come on until 215+ degrees. The second fan kicks in at ~ 230. By the time I pull back in to the grid, they are just coming on. The cooling system is doing exactly what it was designed to do. I know that's flying so far over your head you can't even grasp what is going on. Kind of like a spy run with an SR-71.

If you did a bit of research on the Northstar you would realize GM corrected the head bolt issue. The problem was highly exaggerated. Those engines were a highly efficient engine. 30+ MPG in a 6000 lb vehicle is impressive. That, and 300 hp. Three for three with zero problems. Yeah, they were such a terrible design.

"Highly exaggerated"


https://stlouis.craigslist.org/pts/d/fordland-cadillac-parts-deville/7000727482.html
head gaskets bad

https://stlouis.craigslist.org/pts/d/saint-louis-2000-cadillac-sedan-deville/7001803592.html

https://stlouis.craigslist.org/pts/d/saint-louis-1995-cadillac-parts-car/7001809717.html

https://stlouis.craigslist.org/pts/d/jewett-1998-cadillac-deville-reduced/6975084111.html

https://stlouis.craigslist.org/for/d/saint-louis-05-cadillac-deville-v8/6995723048.html

https://stlouis.craigslist.org/ctd/d/saint-louis-1996-cadillac-seville-sts/6996598935.html



I'm not saying they weren't fuel efficient and quick, but they are still junk. They WILL blow headgaskets if not 04+, it's just a matter of time. If you have to re-engineer an entire engine design to make it reliable, it was never good to begin with.

Sure running a 240 for 30 minutes of abuse gets stuff hot, northstars break at stock power levels.
 
Nearly every engine made will have head gasket failures, including Toyotas. Your craigslist ads don't ad up to much. You have no idea how any of those cars were maintained. There are no statistics on the number of failures vs. cars on the road. Most of the time the head gaskets fail because people don't understand the need for coolant system flushes and new coolant. Or, they are running the cars with coolant leaks or non-working cooling fans. Ignorance is not bliss. That redblock or Toyota head you had shaved is a perfect example of that. Electrolysis eating up the aluminum. One of my customers brought his 940 to me this week to evaluate it as a long term keeper since it now has 300,000+ miles on it. He had straight water in it because he has a water pump leaking. The car checked out fine. It runs and drives perfectly. It needs new motor mounts, a water pump, new timing belt and seals and a set of spark plugs put in it. I'm doing all the work it needs starting tomorrow.
 
Nearly every engine made will have head gasket failures, including Toyotas. Your craigslist ads don't ad up to much. You have no idea how any of those cars were maintained. There are no statistics on the number of failures vs. cars on the road. Most of the time the head gaskets fail because people don't understand the need for coolant system flushes and new coolant. Or, they are running the cars with coolant leaks or non-working cooling fans. Ignorance is not bliss. That redblock or Toyota head you had shaved is a perfect example of that. Electrolysis eating up the aluminum. One of my customers brought his 940 to me this week to evaluate it as a long term keeper since it now has 300,000+ miles on it. He had straight water in it because he has a water pump leaking. The car checked out fine. It runs and drives perfectly. It needs new motor mounts, a water pump, new timing belt and seals and a set of spark plugs put in it. I'm doing all the work it needs starting tomorrow.

The difference being that the Toyota engine i had resurfaced was *severely* neglected, had 290k+ miles, was over heating, and *stilllll* didn?t blow the head gasket. Once it was warm, compression was perfect. North Star engines, especially the early ones, are absolutely guaranteed to fail regardless of how well maintained they are. Just search the forums.

You can blame it on maintenance negligence but that is clearly not the case considering people neglect Toyotas too and I see them with 300,000 miles on them still running and driving. Show me a running and driving Northstar engine with over 200,000 miles on it (pre 04) that doesn?t need the heads pulled to fix GMs **** up. It is a **** design. GM cheaped out to save money and it bit every consumer in the ass. Stop lying to yourself.

And I went through the same electrolysis issue on a 740 that was always very neglected. The car had dirt water for coolant, saw regular 6000rpm neutral bombs, 200k miles, and never batted an eye. Though I did put a new trans and rear end in it.

The fact of the matter is, dex kill is trash and GM has no excuse for using it. The head bolt design is also trash. Toyota and Volvo built cars to last, GM built cars to make money. I?m not blaming them for that.
 
Here's what a well engineered vehicle is capable of. Not that I actually expect you'll read this..


https://www.toyotanation.com/thread...r-a-ranking-list.197694/page-84#post-14140672

1995 LE 2.2 L 4 cylinder, 5S-FE. 515,007 miles, runs almost like new, all systems performing well. Original engine and transmission/differential (AC is cold, initial temp 37.8? expansion valve works intermittently, would soon need replacement). It will soon, under it's own power, make it's terminal trip to the auto salvage yard crusher.

Body and interior are in fair condition. There is a small rust area on the driver side rear quarter panel and across the top windshield frame.

Since new, it has been driven in a Midwest rust belt state. Never garaged, until 2017. The quality of the manufactures paint was excellent. Waxed and buffed twice a year.

Washed usually every two to three weeks, more in the Winter, particularly the underside areas.

Two unexpected repairs, caused by debris in the roadway, each resulting in replacement of the exhaust system flex pipe. In 2001, ran over a tire on the highway, going about 65 miles per hour, at night. It happened again in 2011, when unable to avoid another tire in the roadway, while driving in heavy traffic.

All other parts of the exhaust system are original. The original alternator was replaced in 2008 (409k miles, voltage regulator).

Has original, upper and lower radiator hose (annual coolant flush, hoses are in like new condition), vacuum lines, oxygen sensor, master cylinder, AC compressor, evaporator, receiver dryer, condenser, expansion valve, power steering pump, plug wires and more.

One check engine light in 2004, replaced the EGR valve.

The original starter (450k miles) was replaced by the dealership in 2012, after misdiagnosing an intermittent starting problem. DIY, replaced the Neutral Safety Switch, which fixed the starting problem, with helpful information from the Toyota Nation forums.

In the spring of 2004 (250k miles), an intermittent problem started. It would start missing, losing power, then regain power. Eventually there was a crank/no start.

The dealership had a difficult time correctly diagnosing the problem. Checked fuel system, vacuum lines, some of the electrical system components. Installing a new distributor cap/rotor, did not fix the problem. Replacing the ignition coil (it had a hairline crack) fixed the problem.

In 2013, (478K miles) DIY installed four Quick Struts, front/rear sway bar links, and upper/lower control arms.

In 2015 (492k miles), the Camry was offered at no cost, to a relative. In the interest of safety, four new tires were installed (Bridgestone 205/65R15 Ecopia Ep422). A complete front and rear brake job (new rotors/ wheel cylinders, hardware, replacing the original, calipers, rotors, wheel cylinders).

The front brake pads (only OEM pads used) over the years, were replaced three times, averaging over a 160,000 miles between replacement. Rear brake pads were replaced once, at 492k miles.

After inspection of the brake lines, because of some corrosion, all new brakes lines were installed.

Because of excessive bushing wear and noise, the rear adjustable control arm bushings were replaced.

Confident, with proper maintenance, it could run another 100k or more miles.

After the work, the relative did not want the Camry. For the last four years it has been driven very little, under 6k miles per year. Recently completed a 450 mile trip, averaged 32.7 mpg, at an average speed of around 70 mph.

It has been a very reliable car. But for a few operator error caused problems, for example, allowing the fuel light to indicate empty once to often, causing failure of the fuel pump, from frequent low fuel levels (unaware fuel helps cool the fuel pump motor). Happened in 2008, since then, the fuel tank has never below quarter full.

Cost of ownership per mile to date: Includes purchase price, finance charges, maintenance, service, repairs, insurance, fuel, license fees and other miscellaneous cost (sound system, four radio's, broken driver side door handle, installed alarm system, ect).

Performed 145 DIY oil changes, using Quaker State 10W 30 oil (3,500 average miles), and adding a half quart of Rislone Engine Treatment with every oil change. Used OEM genuine Toyota oil filters. Mostly used OEM parts and fluids for all maintenance and service.

1995 ? 2019: 15,394 gallons of fuel consumed

$28,924 cost of fuel (lowest price per gallon, 0.86? highest $3.94) average $1.88

33.4 miles per gallon average (about 75/25 highway/city). For many years the commute to work was just over 2 miles during the week (averaged 25 ? 28 mpg). Highest fuel economy was 37.3 mpg on a 900 mile trip, with a strong tailwind, for most of the trip.

Total cost of ownership so far: $88,286, which is about 0.17? per mile. If depreciation is included, 0.21? (depreciated down to zero, or scrap value), which is approximately $307 per month, $376 per month with depreciation included.

From 1995 to 2012 almost all service and scheduled maintenance, was preformed by the dealership (image of a late 90's early aughts dealer recommended service brochure), so the cost were significantly higher then an independent service shop

A valve adjustment was done once, in 1997 at 60k miles (not sure if it was a recommended manufacturers service). Had five timing/drive belt changes, since the original belts were changed at 60k miles.

Last timing/drive belt change was in 2012 (475k miles). Installed a new water pump and thermostat (replacing the original water pump and thermostat). Also installed new oil seals.

Last year, with assistance, replaced the head gasket (some oil seepage) and harmonic balancer (rubber ring deterioration).



Here's what a well engineered vehicle is capable of.
 
Well, all 3 Northstar Cadillacs my folks own/owned were pre 2004 Northstars and they had zero head bolt or head gasket failures. Like I said, exaggerated claims. I see these Northstar powered cars running all over here in the North West. Let me guarantee you, if one blew a head gasket, nobody is going to fix it. So, explain why so many are still on the road out here. Could it be that their failure rate is/was completely exaggerated? Yes, it could be and is the reason why. The cars are worth $3,000-$5,000. A head gasket job approaches that amount.

Toyota is no different than any other manufacturer. The idea that Toyotas are superior in design to other makes is a myth that advertisers created. There are plenty of Toyota designs that were/are complete failures. GM was probably the worst of the lot. I'll agree with you there.
 
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