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Old 07-31-2017, 03:52 PM   #1
PromiseRing
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Default 2.2 with Chrysler ign>2.2 with Breakerless (+t)

I have searched many many old threads and have yet to find the answers I'm looking for. I've also PM'd a reputable member on here but got no response yet. If any of you would like to deal with me in PM and answer my stupid questions then please PM me.

I have a 1988 245 with lh2.2 and the Chrysler box. It has the 3 pin hall sensor on the distributor. The car will soon be converted to a turbo setup but I have a few questions. I've done this with an lh2.4 240 and it was very easy. I just swapped BOTH computers with turbo 2.4 computers from a 7/9. However, with lh2.2 and the Chrysler box, it's not so easy. Many people say to swap to ezk, but I'm interested in the barebones dead nuts reliable breakerless system. Even if it's a limiting factor in horsepower. Boost is going to stay around stock so I'm not too worried.

Plan is to install the turbo, manifold, downpipe, intercooler and piping, reroute MAF, install 850t injectors..the bolting stuff on part is easy. Here's my concerns,

>I can directly swap a 541 turbo lh2.2 ecu in place of my NA one, with no splicing or any mods necessary. Boom, fuel side done.
>Ignition. I will need to completely rid the car of the Chrysler box and install a breakerless system from a kjet 240. Can someone please explain this system to me? do I need it from a turbo 240, na 240, doesn't matter? I've read that I'll forsure at least need the distributor from the motor (b21f(t)) but what else? I'm curious as to whether or not the breakerless system uses a 'computer' with its setup, or just the distributor.

I'm sure I'm forgetting other questions so I'll update as they come to me. Thanks.

Here's one of the threads I read over and it seems he was being persuaded to go ezk instead of breakerless. Lord athlon said the timing curve is built into the distributor, was he talking about the breakerless setup or the Chrysler box? One would assume he was talking about the breakerless setup and that should negate the need for a 'computer' with breakerless.
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Old 07-31-2017, 05:24 PM   #2
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>Ignition. I will need to completely rid the car of the Chrysler box and install a breakerless system from a kjet 240. Can someone please explain this system to me? do I need it from a turbo 240, na 240, doesn't matter? I've read that I'll forsure at least need the distributor from the motor (b21f(t)) but what else? I'm curious as to whether or not the breakerless system uses a 'computer' with its setup, or just the distributor.
Distributor, Ignition Amplifier (as seen here) and wiring harness.

But, you'll need another member to get a correct part number for you as I have no reason to believe the one shown as example is for a turbo car - unless you just get it all from a turbo car at the yard.
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Old 07-31-2017, 07:03 PM   #3
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Distributor, Ignition Amplifier (as seen here) and wiring harness.

But, you'll need another member to get a correct part number for you as I have no reason to believe the one shown as example is for a turbo car - unless you just get it all from a turbo car at the yard.
Damn that's expensive. Is the distributor turbo specific just like the box? And how much of the harness? I was under the impression that it was just a few wires.
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Old 07-31-2017, 07:43 PM   #4
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Damn that's expensive. Is the distributor turbo specific just like the box? And how much of the harness? I was under the impression that it was just a few wires.
You really need the wiring harness because it has a molded plug like the AMM for the ignition amplifier. It's only a foot and a half long or so but I would not bother making one because they are plentiful (or were last time I looked) in the junkyard.

Turbo / non-turbo wiring - Should be identical and yes it is a separate harness.
Turbo / non-turbo distributor - IDK
Turbo / non-turbo amplifier - Definitely different

I bought the distributor, amplifier and wiring from a car for about $20 at the Pull-A-Part in Birmingham, AL circa 2004.

Shouldn't be that much... I was just referencing that item for the picture. HTH
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Old 07-31-2017, 08:02 PM   #5
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BTW, that Chrysler ignition system is THE BIGGEST TURD I have ever seen attached to a Volvo. Ever. Not one other part/design/system by Volvo has single-handedly cost me more money or time than this piece of $#!t.

Edit:// I commend you for divesting yourself of this atrocity
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Old 07-31-2017, 08:06 PM   #6
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You really need the wiring harness because it has a molded plug like the AMM for the ignition amplifier. It's only a foot and a half long or so but I would not bother making one because they are plentiful (or were last time I looked) in the junkyard.

Turbo / non-turbo wiring - Should be identical and yes it is a separate harness.
Turbo / non-turbo distributor - IDK
Turbo / non-turbo amplifier - Definitely different

I bought the distributor, amplifier and wiring from a car for about $20 at the Pull-A-Part in Birmingham, AL circa 2004.

Shouldn't be that much... I was just referencing that item for the picture. HTH
Thanks for the reply. Idk if this is the turbo box or not. Does it look like everything I'll need?
http://turbobricks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=326334
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Old 07-31-2017, 08:10 PM   #7
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Thanks for the reply. Idk if this is the turbo box or not. Does it look like everything I'll need?
http://turbobricks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=326334
Probably. Harness looks like it is missing jacket. I would definitely protect it with split loom or something.
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Old 07-31-2017, 08:26 PM   #8
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Probably. Harness looks like it is missing jacket. I would definitely protect it with split loom or something.
Any way to tell if it's from a turbo aside from asking the seller?
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Old 07-31-2017, 08:55 PM   #9
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I think they are the same regardless or turbo or non. I know the ICU's from both a friend's '83 GLT, my '84 GLT, and his '79 all had the same part number.

I think you would be better off going with EZK 117. Then all you need is the harness and computer as your distributor will work with it.
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Old 07-31-2017, 09:11 PM   #10
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Going back to combustion fundamentals, a given air/fuel mixture takes a fixed amount of time to ignite and reach peak pressure. Since it's a fixed time, a given mixture needs to be ignited earlier and earlier in the crank rotation as RPMs increase so that peak pressure is reached at the desired crank position (usually a bit after TDC). Distributors include a set of centrifugal weights that Advance the timing (ignited further before TDC) as RPMs increase. If you can find TP30432-2 Ignition Systems, you can find lots of charts showing the Timing Advance versus RPM for lots of different distributors.

The other main part of combustion fundamentals is that a denser mixture (more air and fuel packed into the same space) ignites and reaches peak pressure faster -- the molecules are closer together and thus react faster. This means that the ignition timing should be Retarded (ignited closer to TDC) as density increases. A simple measure of mixture Density is main manifold vacuum. Hence the term "Vacuum Advance" for a distributor - max advance for lowest density mixture at maximum vacuum. If you're running a Turbo, manifold pressure can exceed atmospheric. In this case, you want "Pressure Retard" or sometime called "Vacuum Retard".

If you find the correct disti curves in the greenbook for a 024 B21FT turbo disti, you'll see 2 lines - one for RPM (with the line drawing symbol for mechanical advance mechanism), and one for Vacuum/Pressure (with the line drawing symbol for the vacuum can).

For a Turbo engine, you want an appropriately curved Turbo distributor. A N/A distributor will not have Pressure Retard under boost.

Electrically, the "breakerless" ignition is "Transistorized". The ignition box is roughly equivalent to the much smaller ignition module on LH2.4 and other more modern cars. The box simply applies coil power through a transistor based on the distributor pickup. I don't think the breakerless box includes any sort of dwell correction. I'd guess the box is identical for N/A or Turbo.

Along with the box, you'll want the coil and the ballast resistor. If you run a different coil, or no ballast resistor, you may overheat and damage the coil.
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Old 07-31-2017, 10:22 PM   #11
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I think I have 'everything' I need aside from the ballast resistor. Hopefully that's readily available. The AMM are the same between 2.2 na and 2.2 turbo just like lh2.4 right?
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Old 07-31-2017, 11:04 PM   #12
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The small module on the later cars does depends on dwell control from the ezk box.

I would be willing to bet that dwell is handled by the box above.
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Old 07-31-2017, 11:06 PM   #13
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I think he'll be better off ditching that Chrysler ignition no matter what the replacement is.
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Old 07-31-2017, 11:25 PM   #14
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I think I have 'everything' I need aside from the ballast resistor. Hopefully that's readily available. The AMM are the same between 2.2 na and 2.2 turbo just like lh2.4 right?
Oh man I was just starting to have a little faith in you and there you go using apostrophes for emphasis.....

AMM is the same, yes.
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Old 08-01-2017, 12:14 AM   #15
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Oh man I was just starting to have a little faith in you and there you go using apostrophes for emphasis.....

AMM is the same, yes.
Those weren't for emphasis.
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Old 08-01-2017, 12:23 AM   #16
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For what it's worth, the 2.2/EZK117 setup uses knock enrichment whereas the old breakerless system does not, at least that's my understanding. I've never run 2.2 with the old ignition system, but it may be something to to consider. If it were me, I would go with EZK as that system was paired with 2.2 from the factory.
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Old 08-01-2017, 12:49 AM   #17
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Chrysler to EZK-117 conversion links:
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=100448
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=129382

(Sorry, not a lot pictures remain after 10+ years)

Bosch #: 0 261 201 012 is EZK-117 for Turbo Intercooled 740. I don't know if there are other Turbo EZK-117 models.
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Old 08-01-2017, 09:44 AM   #18
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A few quick facts:
  • There are no Turbo Chrysler ignition boxes
  • The Chrysler box has a vacuum input and doesn't choke on boost
  • I've run LH2.0 with a turbo fuel ECU and stock Chrysler ignition box for years

It is far from ideal to use the Chrysler box as it is super-aggressive in advancing spark. It will be the limiting factor in how much boost you can run. However, I run 10PSI with 10.7:1 SCR and a K-cam, so I get great off-boost response and a broad torque curve as a result. I don't have any hard data on using the Chrysler box with a 2.2 ECU, so YMMV.
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Old 08-01-2017, 11:21 AM   #19
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Chrysler to EZK-117 conversion links:
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=100448
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=129382

(Sorry, not a lot pictures remain after 10+ years)

Bosch #: 0 261 201 012 is EZK-117 for Turbo Intercooled 740. I don't know if there are other Turbo EZK-117 models.
Thanks for the link but I'm not going ezk, I'm going with breakerless.
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For what it's worth, the 2.2/EZK117 setup uses knock enrichment whereas the old breakerless system does not, at least that's my understanding. I've never run 2.2 with the old ignition system, but it may be something to to consider. If it were me, I would go with EZK as that system was paired with 2.2 from the factory.
Yeah I'm sure it's vastly superior in that aspect but here I am just going for simplicity. A way to spark the engine not too aggressively like the Chrysler box. I'm going to run good gas and possibly some E85 to stay away from knock.

I was also told that breakerless is cheaper/easier to install than to convert to ezk.
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A few quick facts:
  • There are no Turbo Chrysler ignition boxes
  • The Chrysler box has a vacuum input and doesn't choke on boost
  • I've run LH2.0 with a turbo fuel ECU and stock Chrysler ignition box for years

It is far from ideal to use the Chrysler box as it is super-aggressive in advancing spark. It will be the limiting factor in how much boost you can run. However, I run 10PSI with 10.7:1 SCR and a K-cam, so I get great off-boost response and a broad torque curve as a result. I don't have any hard data on using the Chrysler box with a 2.2 ECU, so YMMV.
Yeah I'm sure I would be pinging and pop this motor in short order. It has 300k and might already have a low end noise. I have a spare though.
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Old 08-01-2017, 11:48 AM   #20
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I was also told that breakerless is cheaper/easier to install than to convert to ezk.
Possibly.
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Old 08-04-2017, 01:52 PM   #21
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Is this noise normal when the distributor isn't in the car or is there something I should lube up before install?
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Old 08-04-2017, 11:59 PM   #22
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That doesn't sound normal.

Make sure that the Hall effect teeth/ splines aren't making contact. There should be a small air gap.
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Old 08-05-2017, 01:08 AM   #23
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Has a rough spot from sitting so long. Spray a tiny bit of wd40 down there and run it. It will probably go away after a little
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Old 08-05-2017, 11:13 PM   #24
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Sounds like a dry bushing. Those distributors don't have any way to get lubrication to the top bushing. The old ones had a cup that allowed lubing it. There should be a little oval-shaped plug in the side of the case. You can pry it out and look in there and see where the shaft sticks out of the bushing. Put some oil there.
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Old 08-06-2017, 09:00 PM   #25
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I'm not sure about the early Bosch 240 distributors, but the old Bosch VW distributors have a felt pad in the end of the main shaft, visible when you remove the rotor. You were supposed to add a few drops of engine oil every time you checked your points. I don't know if the oil in the felt pad migrated down and lubricated the bushings, or if it was to prevent corrosion.

If your disti has a felt pad, try removing it carefully and see if there's a passageway going down the shaft. If so, you could try squirting something like WD-40 or PBblaster down the hole to clean out any old grease&corrosion. Spin it around then let it dry/drain. Finish up with a squirt of motor oil and a few drops on the felt.
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