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BMW M52TUB25 transplant

BDKR

Section 9
Joined
Nov 16, 2003
Location
Horizons Cave
It seems that my recent purchase of a BMW is turning into a swarm of small issues. Kinda sucks!

I told myself that if it gets to a point where they are just too much from what was supposed to be something to just drive back and forth to work, I'm going to strip it and part it.

However, I would still also have the M52 / Getrag setup. Which beggars the mental exercise of transplanting it into a '88 740.

Knowns
*) MS can control dual vanos. At least this blog suggests as much.
*) No need to for transmission controller being manual.
*) E46 cooling systems suck, but with the more spacious 740 layout I should be able to bypass nearly all of the crappy parts (crappy coolant and overflow tanks as well as radiators) save for the water pump. BTW, the parts are crappy when it's recommended that the entire cooling system be rebuilt/replaced every 60K to 75K!
*) These can easily push through 300hp with relatively little boost. 8 psi on one twin screw setup saw 310hp.
*) There are tons of aftermarket E46 turbo ex manifolds. There is even one that is a top mount, which makes a ton of sense considering the bulk* of the offerings are low and back to deal with the relative lack of room and an E46 engine bay.
*) Don't have to use the scavenge pump the E46 kits do because they all mount the snail so low. :nod:

Assumptions
*) There will be enough space for that giant phracking intake manifold.
*) My current ABS and Cruise Control will continue to operate as they have their own controllers
*) Engine and transmission mounts wouldn't be too big of a deal.

Unknowns
*) Gear shifter. Where is it going to come out at? :lol:
*) Speedo signal. I know i'm going to need it for the speedometer, but anything else?
*) Accessories? Should I just run the BMW accessories? Is there an alternative to that BMW (air cooled :rofl:) alternator?
*) Upright or slanted.

Anyway, I'm gearing up to work on the 740 anyway. Have space and have finally cooled my heels on the bikes a little. Time's a plenty! Just thought I'd give this idea a once over and get some feedback from TB'ers.

BTW, e46fanatics and bimmerforums suck! Nothing can be done with those guys over there.
 
I'm looking into pretty much the exact same swap. There are a couple threads I've found with helpful information. One is on here and I believe the thread was titled "Dubbelvla" or something similar.

So this is the aluminum block m52?
 
M50 is the way to go (without vanos). I was just looking into this yesterday with a coworker (bmw Master tech of 7+ years). The M50 without vanos LOVES boost and MS. def the way to go if you want power and simplicity.
 
I'm looking into pretty much the exact same swap. There are a couple threads I've found with helpful information. One is on here and I believe the thread was titled "Dubbelvla" or something similar.

Thanx! Just found it and bookmarked it! :-D

So this is the aluminum block m52?

Yes.

M50 is the way to go (without vanos). I was just looking into this yesterday with a coworker (bmw Master tech of 7+ years). The M50 without vanos LOVES boost and MS. def the way to go if you want power and simplicity.

It's kind of a what-I-have-in-hand thing. ;-)

Gotta use the e30 oil pan as it has the rear sump.

OK... That makes sense based on something I was able to dig up. But then wouldn't I have to also use the E30 pickup pipe (from off the pump) as well since the sump is moved rearward? That makes sense, but I will check out...


...the above threads.

And thanx for the links. I don't know why I never remeber to look there. :roll:
 
I have the Dubbelvla thread. Has been on hold for a while due to construction and redecoration work at home. I picked it up again recently and will update soon. I stroked an m50 to 3 liters. No vanos.

You need the e36 pan or e46 should be ok too. The e30 was never fitted with the 24v powerplant. Many around nowadays though.
 
Yep. e36. My bad. I knew it was a 3-series that came with the m50.

I love this engine. It was a dream for a while to drop one in the 240 but aftermarket stuff is expensive (pistons/rods).
 
The M50 without vanos LOVES boost and MS. def the way to go if you want power and simplicity.

I love this engine.

I can see there is a lot of love for the M50. :)

But I have an M52. That said, what's the chance of swapping the M50 head onto the existing M52 block. Are the M series engines that modular?

I have the Dubbelvla thread.

Yeah man! Subscribed! :nod: The pics for creating the motor and transmission mounts were extremely helpful!

You need the e36 pan or e46 should be ok too.

OK. That's good to know (Thanx 740ATL!). The sump was a big question. I even started looking at available dry sump options should that be the direction I take. Nice to see that these engines have what looks like a windage tray.

It was a dream for a while to drop one in the 240 but aftermarket stuff is expensive (pistons/rods).

Tell me about! Everything BMW related is mad expensive. I was shocked to see the cost of kits. $5k to $7k for kits that don't net much more the 400hp? Then every time a DIY'er shows up, the first thing they do is scoff.

Thanks for the chat folks! Not decided yet. As i said before, if the 323 continues to be a PITA, then I'll most likely part it and go for the swap. I'll decide in the next couple of weeks.
 
And BTW, it seems the M50NV (non-vanos) head on the M52 block has been done a good deal. :-)
 
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Get a M52B28, convert it to OBDI and use DWS delete + s/c kit = reliable 320hp.

The vanos really doesn't prove to be too much a problem, the only thing I have against the M50 is lack of parts for the head, M50 was only produce between 92-95, where M52 went from 95-2002, the chance of finding a nice M52 is much higher and much cheaper, and the small parts are cheaper too.
 
Get a M52B28, convert it to OBDI and use DWS delete + s/c kit = reliable 320hp.

The vanos really doesn't prove to be too much a problem, the only thing I have against the M50 is lack of parts for the head, M50 was only produce between 92-95, where M52 went from 95-2002, the chance of finding a nice M52 is much higher and much cheaper, and the small parts are cheaper too.

Well the only reason I'm really wondering about M52 vs M50 (heads that is) is for dealing with VANOS. While there is supposedly MS support for it, I don't know how mature that is.

That said, can you rip VANOS out of the M52?
 
Just in case someone get's interested in this stuff, the non vanos M50 heads have a casting # of 1720840. I figured it's pretty important since there are tons of places out there selling heads and stating what they are based on what car they will supposedly fit. Kind of mis-leading.
 
Well the only reason I'm really wondering about M52 vs M50 (heads that is) is for dealing with VANOS. While there is supposedly MS support for it, I don't know how mature that is.

That said, can you rip VANOS out of the M52?

I've never looked into it, but on M54 you can actually lock the vanos in desire mode.

Converting the car to OBDI is probably less work then the MS and it'll be 100x more reliable as you won't be messing around with too much, even if you keep all OBDII functions you can easily get the DME tune to whatever you desire easily since there's so many folks out there who can do it.

That's just me, less hassle and more reliability is what I prefer.
 
Instead of swapping it in I bought the whole car.
My z3 has the aluminum block version, my e46 has the iron block. Coolant tanks are an issue, as well as vacuum leaks, but otherwise they have been solid.
I'm sure Nick could offer some insight into vanos and how to make it work with MS.
 
And BTW, it seems the M50NV (non-vanos) head on the M52 block has been done a good deal. :-)


I've enver understood why people do this. Really the only differences between the heads is the NV head uses 7mm valve stems, while all the rest use 6mm. So, you WANT a head that flows less?? :wtf:

Get a M52B28, convert it to OBDI and use DWS delete + s/c kit = reliable 320hp.

The vanos really doesn't prove to be too much a problem, the only thing I have against the M50 is lack of parts for the head, M50 was only produce between 92-95, where M52 went from 95-2002, the chance of finding a nice M52 is much higher and much cheaper, and the small parts are cheaper too.


No reason to convert it to OBD1 anymore. There is plenty of tuning available for most of the stock DME's. The MS41 is fully tunable and capable now, and there are a few who've gotten the MS43 setup as basically a full-standalone now as well (deleting EWS, and removing any of the CANBUS necessities). Small parts are relatively the same between the 2. They're essentially the same engine, with minor parts up[grades. The heads are identical between OBD1 & OBD2, sans 1 additional coolant temp sensor port on the OBD1 head. Same water pumps, minor accessory drive differences, etc.

I've never looked into it, but on M54 you can actually lock the vanos in desire mode.

Converting the car to OBDI is probably less work then the MS and it'll be 100x more reliable as you won't be messing around with too much, even if you keep all OBDII functions you can easily get the DME tune to whatever you desire easily since there's so many folks out there who can do it.

That's just me, less hassle and more reliability is what I prefer.


Yes. If it's available, absolutely stick to the stock DME. They're cheap, you'll already have a harness that plugs in, and flash tunable. The biggest advantage to VANOS - torque. There are no disadvantages. Buy a new seal kit for it and re-seal it while the motor is out. It's cheap, and easy to do, I've done a few of them now.

FWIW, if you're looking at the E46 motor (m52TU), keep in mind it has a DBW throttle body. Turner has a conversion plate pretty cheap to put an M50/M52 cable throttle body on it. Nobody has really made big power from any of the E46 motors yet except for the S54. The M52tu was the last iron block motor, the M54's are all alu block and have problems holding head bolt threads in the block even without boost, but the M52tu should be fine. If you want a cheap stroker kit - m54b30 crank, pistons and rods. It's an S52 crank, with 84mm pistons. Instant 3.0l :) The motor is designed to be slanted, so you may have oil puddle issues if you vertical mount it. And of course you'll have to customize the pan & pickup tube, but that shouldn't be too hard. But they're a really tall engine too, which is really the main reason why they're slanted. Your ABS won't be effected, but if you use the DBW throttle, you'll need to integrate that with your factory controls, as cruise is DME controlled on those. Or convert to cable throttle and use what you have.


Gear shifter - it's a linkage setup, so it will come out wherever you want it to :) If you run the stock DME, it'll need a speedo signal, or else it'll limp mode at 5k rpm's. Is your stock speedo signal coming from the rear diff? I know the one in my 960 does. Nothing wrong with the BMW alternators. Nearly every alternator on the market is air-cooled. Ducting outside air to the back of the alternator helps extend alternator life.
 
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So, you WANT a head that flows less?? :wtf:

The M50 has been discussed should I decide I don't want to deal with VANOS. A lot of options have been provided, which is cool and precisely what these kinds of conversations should foster. ;-)

You have no idea how grateful I am that this hasn't turned into a bull5h1t fest.

Yes. If it's available, absolutely stick to the stock DME. They're cheap, you'll already have a harness that plugs in, and flash tunable.

Sweet! If I do the swap, I'll PM for more info here.

Or better yet, list what you know on the subject as this thread could be a cool repository for people who are doing or considering the swap.

The biggest advantage to VANOS - torque.

QFT!

FWIW, if you're looking at the E46 motor (m52TU), keep in mind it has a DBW throttle body. Turner has a conversion plate pretty cheap to put an M50/M52 cable throttle body on it. Nobody has really made big power from any of the E46 motors yet except for the S54. The M52tu was the last iron block motor, the M54's are all alu block and have problems holding head bolt threads in the block even without boost, but the M52tu should be fine. If you want a cheap stroker kit - m54b30 crank, pistons and rods. It's an S52 crank, with 84mm pistons. Instant 3.0l :) The motor is designed to be slanted, so you may have oil puddle issues if you vertical mount it. And of course you'll have to customize the pan & pickup tube, but that shouldn't be too hard. But they're a really tall engine too, which is really the main reason why they're slanted. Your ABS won't be effected, but if you use the DBW throttle, you'll need to integrate that with your factory controls, as cruise is DME controlled on those. Or convert to cable throttle and use what you have.

Gear shifter - it's a linkage setup, so it will come out wherever you want it to :) If you run the stock DME, it'll need a speedo signal, or else it'll limp mode at 5k rpm's. Is your stock speedo signal coming from the rear diff? I know the one in my 960 does. Nothing wrong with the BMW alternators. Nearly every alternator on the market is air-cooled. Ducting outside air to the back of the alternator helps extend alternator life.

Thanx for the info!
 
The M50 has been discussed should I decide I don't want to deal with VANOS. A lot of options have been provided, which is cool and precisely what these kinds of conversations should foster. ;-)

You have no idea how grateful I am that this hasn't turned into a bull5h1t fest.



Sweet! If I do the swap, I'll PM for more info here.

Or better yet, list what you know on the subject as this thread could be a cool repository for people who are doing or considering the swap.



QFT!



Thanx for the info!



If you want to delete VANOS on any of the single-vanos motors, don't swap to the lesser flowing head, just buy the vanos delete cover. It bolts onto the front of the VANOS head (same as the NV head does) where the VANOS would normally go. #1, lists for ~$22. Then time the cams, and lock them in place. Or go to the junkyard and yank what you need off a car there, NV's are ending up in the yards more and more often lately.

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As far as tuning, all of the worthwhile tuners can delete all of the emissions stuff, turn off EWS, and make nearly unlimited power with the stock DME (Mike Radowski - owner of MaximumPSI in NJ, just made just over 1000 whp from his S52, and just ran an 8.9 this weekend at MIR). Nick G, TRM, Epic Motorsports, etc. Here's some info on tuning the MS43 (YMMV, I know nobody thats self-tuned the MS43 personally yet): http://www.chiptuners.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11107 And another good thread by the same user : http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=297172

I'm not sure where the DME"s for the M52tu lie. I have a feeling they're being disregarded by most tuners, since there simply aren't many of them out there. Comparatively, they're a bit of an anomoly. BMW likes using short-production motors like that for whatever reason. The Super eta M20 was a 1.5-2 year production motor. The M50 NV was a 1.5 or so year production. And the M52tu wasn't around very long before being replaced by the M54.
 
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