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Old 02-07-2018, 02:05 PM   #26
culberro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeaceEngineered View Post
Thanks for responding Ben.
I don't think I am thread jacking as it is on topic, but in my case I should have added it is a 5.0 GT-40 motor with the Ford bellhousing as well. Would the McLeod TOB 16515 still work in this case? I have not had to do this before with prior 5.0 projects (first for everything though including a swap into a 240). Thanks again.
I have the same setup in one of my 240s, and the clutch does start to engage right off the floor with the stock clutch.
I'd modified the pedal, but it works well enough right now.
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Old 02-07-2018, 06:23 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by PeaceEngineered View Post
Ben-
In my case it is the factory 87-93 Mustang everything- TOB, clutch fork, disc, pressure plate and flywheel. There is just not enough throw to have a well modulated clutch.
As Jack and I discussed, there are too many options of assembly to say what each option needs to publish definitive answers. That said, what recommendation do you have for proper clutch fork position to create the greatest throw? That information would apply across the board regardless of setup, and allow the correct height TOB to be acquired. I know I have seen a sketch somewhere...
Thanks.
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Originally Posted by PeaceEngineered View Post
Thanks for responding Ben.
I don't think I am thread jacking as it is on topic, but in my case I should have added it is a 5.0 GT-40 motor with the Ford bellhousing as well. Would the McLeod TOB 16515 still work in this case? I have not had to do this before with prior 5.0 projects (first for everything though including a swap into a 240). Thanks again.
Check your pedal for wear. I had one pedal that was slotted over time and made the clutch engagement too low. I welded it shut and redrilled a fresh hole. Good as new. Steel clutch pedals ftw.
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Old 02-07-2018, 07:55 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blkaplan View Post
Check your pedal for wear. I had one pedal that was slotted over time and made the clutch engagement too low. I welded it shut and redrilled a fresh hole. Good as new. Steel clutch pedals ftw.
Gotcha. Will check it next time I have it up on stands and let all the snow melt evaporate. Ha
Thanks for the tip!
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Old 02-07-2018, 08:00 PM   #29
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Ben. Deeworks indicates on their site that you should be using the stock Volvo TOB though?

To further complicate what my issue MAY have been, my flipping clutch cable snapped this morning. So it may well have been fine adjustment this whole time, but the cable slowly breaking and stretching that has made me feel like I'm having travel issues.

Gonna mess with it this weekend. BUT, I'd like feedback on that TOB option.
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Old 02-08-2018, 02:00 AM   #30
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Quote:
my flipping clutch cable snapped this morning
I've had 3 cables snap on me, the first one snapped exactly when I was addressing the same problem as you, deja vu huh. Fortunately I found the problem of the two latter.

Basically you have what seems like two options, maybe three.

a. buy a mcleod TOB. Probably the right way to do all of this.

b. shim the pivot ball. Most will say that it's okay. I haven't had any issues personally and my setup would be jenkier than yours.

c. There is something else fundamentally wrong like you said, with the cable stretch. But if that turns out not to be the issue, you have the info.

Have a look this weekend and tell us how it goes. Conclusions are nice in threads.
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Old 02-08-2018, 12:21 PM   #31
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I used the stock TOB when I used a deeworks adapter, but I also spaced the pivot ball out. You could also use the Mcleod.
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Old 02-08-2018, 12:28 PM   #32
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If you use the deeworks kit you have to use the stock bearing from what i know. I can only speak to the stuff that I sell.
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Old 02-08-2018, 01:50 PM   #33
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If you use the deeworks kit you have to use the stock bearing from what i know. I can only speak to the stuff that I sell.
Looking at the McLeod I don't think this would help. This of course just changes the height of the TOB, but I need to change the travel of the system.

That said, I'm going to put a hold on this discussion BECAUSE.

1. When I last adjusted my cable (this past weekend) I noticed that my rubber bushing was starting to get chewed up at the shoulder. So it's possible that this moved within the mounting hole which would've obviously messed with my travel. To remedy this, I grabbed the Delrin upgrade from STSMachining (hopefully it shows up for me to do this weekend).

2. My cable broke (obv) but it's completely plausible that as each strand of cable was breaking that the cable itself was stretching significantly.

So. I've got a couple of people that have some "OK" looking OEM cables, and I've got my old aftermarket one. I'll probably attempt getting that aftermarket one in place this weekend since it's physically here, and then see what my travel looks like?
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Old 02-09-2018, 08:00 AM   #34
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I would not use any aftermarket clutch cable. I’ve snapped two of those and the only ones holding up properly is the oem.
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Old 02-09-2018, 11:18 AM   #35
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Go Hydraulic. Easy.
Ford T5
Add the GM bearing retainer. (reset input shaft play)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/FRONT-BEARI...53.m2749.l2649
Speedway TO bearing kit
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/GM-St...ring,1945.html
Volvo hydraulic master.
Lines
Drive

Having dicked around with pivot balls and spacing before in other swaps... Never again. The Speedway kit is super affordable, adjustable, and easy.

This is exactly what I'm doing for the Whiteblock swap. Of course small fabrication details here and there depending on your installation.
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Old 02-09-2018, 03:01 PM   #36
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Where in the pedal's travel range does it actually engage the pressure plate fingers?
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Old 02-09-2018, 04:38 PM   #37
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Where in the pedal's travel range does it actually engage the pressure plate fingers?
As it stands right now (well, before it snapped anyway), as far as I'm able to tell my TOB was BARELY riding the PP fingers. I say that because I wasn't able to feel any play at all in the fork, but if I tightened it, I would see it come forward. If I loosened it, it went back BARELY.
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Old 02-09-2018, 04:42 PM   #38
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that says nothing about where the pedal is at that point.
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Old 02-09-2018, 08:39 PM   #39
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It's at the stop on the upper limit. As I said, I'm using the ENTIRE pedal travel.

Not trying to snark. Just had to do the flipping clutch cable with that pile of shet aftermarket POS and anyone that says it's JUST as easy as an OEM is ficking insane. Fight me.
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Old 02-09-2018, 10:19 PM   #40
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I just feel like the issue lies in the actual distance between the TOB and the clutch fingers.

If you've exhausted all of the adjustment and it's still not disengaging, then I don't think pushing the clutch in more is going to help. The clutch pedal isn't designed to have a 2ft long stroke.
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Old 02-15-2018, 11:02 AM   #41
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Well something is definitely still not right. I have the aftermarket cable in as my band-aid and I adjusted it correctly. Pulling out of the driveway... no issues. But by the time I got to work... couldn't get the damn thing into reverse to parallel park.

I'm out of town this weekend, but I'll get into it next week. I'm at such a loss here though. From what I could tell, my clearances are all good, I'm not hitting anything...

Ugh. wth.
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Old 02-15-2018, 12:56 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EivlEvo View Post
Well something is definitely still not right. I have the aftermarket cable in as my band-aid and I adjusted it correctly. Pulling out of the driveway... no issues. But by the time I got to work... couldn't get the damn thing into reverse to parallel park.
This was my life before I swapped to hydraulic. I had a heavy heavy pressure plate in my car and was starting to pull and stretch the cable, distort the firewall, bend the fork etc. Usually every 50 miles of driving I'd have to pull up on the adjustment in order to get it into 1st and reverse. Couple of times on the road where I had to turn the car off to get it into 1st and get away from a light.

Do you have a heavy clutch in the car? It reads to me like you're just suffering for the crappy cable setup. All of this is exactly what motivated me to go hydraulic, it was expensive but I'm happy I did it.
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Old 02-15-2018, 01:37 PM   #43
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So you have the DeeWorks adapter? I do too, and the PO sold it to me with this taller TOB:



Worked flawlessly, with no need to shim anything. On my B20 bellhousing, I did need to space the pivot, and it also worked fine.
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Old 02-15-2018, 03:00 PM   #44
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THe thing is... if the fork hits the stops on the bellhousing, I could see the need of going to the taller TOB. But I'm running the Kennedy Stage 2. These PP require standoffs of about an inch which means that (at least in my mind) the fork should be pushed WAY back. Think dogdish flywheel. But of course, there's plenty of room at the back.

I dunno how or why this is being so finicky though? Maybe my firewall is about to die?

To go hydraulic I feel like I need a lot of unobtainium though? STS doesn't have the pedal finished yet. I don't have a hydro pedal. Or a hydro fork.

Otherwise, my cable is loosening itself somehow? Which seems so unlikely.
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Old 02-15-2018, 03:34 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EivlEvo View Post
To go hydraulic I feel like I need a lot of unobtainium though? STS doesn't have the pedal finished yet. I don't have a hydro pedal. Or a hydro fork.
Besides the elusive hydro pedal, all other hydro clutch components are available. The cable clutch pedal can be modified for hydro duty w/o much drama.

For reference:
Centric 136.39000 clutch master cyl – Rock Auto (240 diesel / 260 application) <--maybe not 240 diesel in real life, but categorized as such on RA.
Centric 138.39002 slave cyl – Rock Auto (740 Turbo application)
30mm snap ring (914463) – Tasca
Sachs SBA8006 throwout bearing – Rock Auto (740 Turbo application) <--may or may not work for your setup
M90 clutch fork (3549983) – Tasca
Lock spring (1377132) - Tasca
Steel M12x1.0 – 3AN adapter (@slave) – eBay
Steel M12x1.0 – 3AN banjo (@master) – eBay
36” premade 3AN braided stainless line – eBay
Clutch pedal return spring (1205725) – Tasca
Clutch pedal pin (964843) – Tasca
Clutch pedal split pin (664822) – Tasca
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Old 02-15-2018, 05:49 PM   #46
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TBH What's even different about the pedals? Wouldn't the master just pin to the pedal the same way as the cable? Or does it come down to the cable pedal is pulling the cable and the hydro pedal needs to push the master cyl?

If it needs to be pushed, how much of a pain is that to install? Getting the hole aligned properly seems like it could be a pain...
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Old 02-15-2018, 05:51 PM   #47
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Also, isn't the pivot point for the M90 different as well? The pivot on the M46/7 is...

Pivot, then TOB, then cable hook.

But on the M90 its' TOB, then pivot, then cable hook.

How would that work?
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Old 02-15-2018, 05:54 PM   #48
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Also at that stage, why not just go with something like this?

http://www.jegs.com/p/RAM-Clutches/R...gin|0||P_SKU|0
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Old 02-15-2018, 07:28 PM   #49
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You can but it would take a lot of modifications to the inside of your bell housing to get your internal slave mounted in the proper spot. That one you posted needs a stud with threads and nuts on each side of the thing to adjust it up and down and the stud has to thread into the bellhousing at the correct spot. So you might have to cut stuff out of way and weld in aluminum plate and drill an tap for the stud. I've seen it done. Usually it's more then just one stud, two at least. That depends on what internal slave you use of course. Then if it goes bad you gotta remove the whole trans to replace it. The stock volvo hdyro setup the slave is in that same spot on the bell housing where the cable goes through and then a rod to the shift fork. EAsy to replace.

The m90 and m47 or m46 hydro setups use the same exact pusher clutch fork. Same pivot point on the drivers side of the car opposite of the 240 cable pull longer fork. You can remove the hydro fork with everything still in the car, you gotta take the trans out to remove the 240 cable type of fork.

All 740 turbos use hydro setups with manual trans. 260's use hydro setups with manual trans. I got my hydro 240 setup from a 260, it's the one I lent to the twins at STS to make there 240 hydro pedals from. I'm going hydro on my 88 245 myself with NA 2.5L and STS flat flywheel with lh 2.4 and the stock m47.

All M46 M47 bell housings have the spot on each side of the bell housing for either the puller 240 style cable clutch pivot ball fork or the 740 turbo hydro push style fork. The pivot ball is the same for either.
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Last edited by sbabbs; 02-15-2018 at 07:39 PM..
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Old 02-15-2018, 08:18 PM   #50
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TBH What's even different about the pedals? Wouldn't the master just pin to the pedal the same way as the cable? Or does it come down to the cable pedal is pulling the cable and the hydro pedal needs to push the master cyl?
Correct, the cable pedal has a tab on top of the pivot point to pull the cable. The hydro pedal has a tab below the pivot point to push on the clutch master piston.

Cable pedal:


Hydro pedal:


To modify the cable clutch pedal you need to replace the "pull" tab with a "push" tab and extend the pedal by ~2.5" since it gets mounted higher in the pedal box.

Here is my modified pedal for reference:

Last edited by oldschoolvolvo; 02-15-2018 at 08:25 PM..
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