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Old 05-19-2018, 08:31 PM   #1
vwbusman66
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Default DriftsNLifts Header dyno test

Very interesting results with the addition of a KL Racing header to Kolton's 744 B230F.
I believe he is running a slotted K cam and know for sure he is running a modified airbox, E-fan, and standalone FI.

What Dan says makes sense though and really proves how mediocre the 530 head is- "The stock manifold is outflowing the stock head."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtTw6Ws60qQ
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Old 05-19-2018, 11:40 PM   #2
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Yeah, I was surprised that it made no gain. Does that mean the stock manifold is still usable if you port the 530 head?
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Old 05-21-2018, 03:10 PM   #3
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Your results may vary. I think that the tube diameters on those headers are way too big for any kind of redblock that sees the underside of 5000 rpm.
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Old 05-21-2018, 04:10 PM   #4
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Any chance you can post the dyno sheets before and after? I'd be curious to see the curves.

I look forward to the next step!
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Old 05-22-2018, 12:45 PM   #5
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mm, so from a while back, the intake manifold doesn't do you any favors in stock form, and is typically a hindrance with even a moderately ported 8v. Do you per chance have a datalog of the dyno pull assuming the ecu is speed-density? be curious what that looks like
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Old 05-22-2018, 01:03 PM   #6
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Has there ever been a real discussion as to what exactly is wrong with the LH intake manifold? Any theories?
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Old 05-22-2018, 01:15 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by shoestring View Post
Has there ever been a real discussion as to what exactly is wrong with the LH intake manifold? Any theories?
Other than the fact that it has no plenum and small runners?

I have dyno'd over 133wchp with one and the stock airbox(pre-heat unblocked and re-routed for cold air), so it's possible to make more hp with it, at least. I wonder what the VOC guys who are getting 180+ crank HP out of them are doing inside the manifold.
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Old 05-22-2018, 01:19 PM   #8
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it's not a very good design.. the individual runner numbers are not godawful, but if you measure the unit performance as a whole, it's not much more than just a single runner.

things I would think contribute to it: long-ish runners, injector reliefs occlude the runners, no plenum volume to speak of, throttle body isn't exactly huge either at 57mm. A more in depth analysis can probably be found on savarturbo.se, but they generally regard it as an impediment once you start porting the head.

I've never tested a kjet b21f manifold, but they're said to be a bit better. I don't fool with a lot of NA stuff as a matter of course, that's why I was curious to see a datalog, I have a curiosity I'd like satisfied...
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Old 05-22-2018, 04:55 PM   #9
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I have a question as to whether or not it has to do with the fact that the intake runners oppose each other in the plenum. I've researched the crap outta this and can't really find anything that says "you need x plenum volume for y result". There are plenty of applications where you might think the plenum is small for the displacement, but doesn't seem to be an issue. I know some guys run the B21F intake, but I've never seen a back to back dyno test.

I would argue that a header/extractor properly tuned to a given engine package will always make more power in the rpm range it's tuned for than an exhaust manifold that is not. Science.
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Old 05-22-2018, 05:54 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vwbusman66 View Post
Very interesting results with the addition of a KL Racing header to Kolton's 744 B230F.
I believe he is running a slotted K cam and know for sure he is running a modified airbox, E-fan, and standalone FI.

What Dan says makes sense though and really proves how mediocre the 530 head is- "The stock manifold is outflowing the stock head."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtTw6Ws60qQ


You really think that vid of a 22 y.o. kid screwing with a stock B230F and concluding that his customer "needs" a 531 head---and that sight unseen he's going to improve things by porting it belongs in "performance" and is "discussion" ?

This belongs in Off Topic..

the vid proves nothing because the 'test" proves nothing..
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Old 05-22-2018, 05:56 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shoestring View Post
Has there ever been a real discussion as to what exactly is wrong with the LH intake manifold? Any theories?
TONS..and endless..30 years of discussion..How ell do you read Swedish?

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Old 05-22-2018, 07:01 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by linuxman51 View Post
I've never tested a kjet b21f manifold, but they're said to be a bit better.
The B21F manifold has larger runners and proper length for a 6500rpm peak. Some Europeans say it's good for 5hp on a stock motor. Some say it's best to leave the center, lower throttle body opening. Others(Erland, and likely some others), say it's best to block that off and modify it to have a front mounted throttle body(similar to most intake manifolds in the aftermarket).
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoestring View Post
I would argue that a header/extractor properly tuned to a given engine package will always make more power in the rpm range it's tuned for than an exhaust manifold that is not. Science.


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Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
You really think that vid of a 22 y.o. kid screwing with a stock B230F and concluding that his customer "needs" a 531 head---and that sight unseen he's going to improve things by porting it belongs in "performance" and is "discussion" ?
He's probably 23, but he isn't concluding that his customer needs anything, this is his own car from what I can gather. His own tinker toy for him to play around with things and see what happens for fun.
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Old 05-22-2018, 07:14 PM   #13
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I mean it was a before and after comparison of stock header vs. aftermarket header... and it didnt change the dyno even after messing with fuel. I would think thats a pretty good test? What he was concluding was that maybe the head doesnt flow enough to make use of anything better than stock. Maybe after porting or using a better head the header would be a limiting factor.

'course we're focusing on perhaps its the intake side thats limiting the results
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Old 05-22-2018, 09:02 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
You really think that vid of a 22 y.o. kid screwing with a stock B230F and concluding that his customer "needs" a 531 head---and that sight unseen he's going to improve things by porting it belongs in "performance" and is "discussion" ?

This belongs in Off Topic..

the vid proves nothing because the 'test" proves nothing..
Kolton bought the ported 531 quite a while ago and is a friend of Dan, the shop's owner.

And it proves that the 530 sucks donkey a** and is the major restrictor in the stock engine after replacing the anemic "M" cam. Kolton saw good gains and a powerband shift (as expected) with a slotted "K" cam. The addition of the cam and now the header (and lack of improvement post header) demonstrates the poor flow of the 530 head.
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Old 05-22-2018, 09:04 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by boostdemon View Post
I mean it was a before and after comparison of stock header vs. aftermarket header... and it didnt change the dyno even after messing with fuel. I would think thats a pretty good test? What he was concluding was that maybe the head doesnt flow enough to make use of anything better than stock. Maybe after porting or using a better head the header would be a limiting factor.

'course we're focusing on perhaps its the intake side thats limiting the results
About the closest thing we've seen to a scientifically documented test thus far (on an N/A motor before/after header)!
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Old 05-22-2018, 09:27 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vwbusman66 View Post
Kolton bought the ported 531 quite a while ago and is a friend of Dan, the shop's owner.

And it proves that the 530 sucks donkey a** and is the major restrictor in the stock engine after replacing the anemic "M" cam. Kolton saw good gains and a powerband shift (as expected) with a slotted "K" cam. The addition of the cam and now the header (and lack of improvement post header) demonstrates the poor flow of the 530 head.
If you think a bit about when the Volvo head was designed. Then look around at VW, Chrysler, GM, Ford, and other car makers of the time. The head is a pretty good one. Not maybe the best. But among the best of the time.

That said these heads respond very well to someone who is good at flow work. Mine was improved quite a bit. No it's not a 16v but I'm very happy with the improvements my shop made. You can look at the improvements on the flow chart sheets that are in Garys headwork thread.

I think the test was pretty good because it does show that improving the engine with just bolting on one thing at a time sometimes isn't going to give you the results you seek. You may have to work with more of the whole engine breathing system to get more. People need to know the bigger picture and they won't unless someone helps with this kind of test.
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Old 05-22-2018, 09:58 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vwbusman66 View Post
Kolton bought the ported 531 quite a while ago and is a friend of Dan, the shop's owner.

And it proves that the 530 sucks donkey a** and is the major restrictor in the stock engine after replacing the anemic "M" cam. Kolton saw good gains and a powerband shift (as expected) with a slotted "K" cam. The addition of the cam and now the header (and lack of improvement post header) demonstrates the poor flow of the 530 head.
Not going to waste time arguing with you over a sloppy silly video which PROVES nothing..
Your terms exaggerate...
And it is the intake runners which become the limiter in the non-turbo Redblock, just as it is in 8 and 16v Saabs, and 8 and 16v VW and nearly any other normally aspirated production motor...
Hell its so common that its easier to name the few motors where the runners aren't the major restriction to making good power..*

More than 25 years ago these anemic motors with "just a easy clean up" (according to one of the more respected cylinder head men in Sweden--and an old friend) were making a nice easy to drive, torquey 230-235 hp at 2350cc and about 7100rpm typically.
Induction was 2 x 48 DCOE Webers or 48 Dellortos.
And a KL or JT tuning header----and some real cams..

Another point you leapt over in your frenzy to defend your BFF is "If porting, there's no reason to import a 531--after porting a 530 will do anything just as well"


*I would list a who boatload but I don't get the feeling you care about that..
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:46 PM   #18
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Other than the fact that it has no plenum and small runners?

I have dyno'd over 133wchp with one and the stock airbox(pre-heat unblocked and re-routed for cold air), so it's possible to make more hp with it, at least. I wonder what the VOC guys who are getting 180+ crank HP out of them are doing inside the manifold.
VOC allows touching basically nothing...but if it has a production PN you can use it..

A FB freind who is in the business might give us a little insight on if they are actually doing 180.. becuase's been no change freeing up anything and the figure used to be about 155 crank HP..

And for the record the veeeeeeeeeeeeery budget minded folkrace guys agree that with any stock runner no matter what you do you won't see much above 175--even with gobs of compression and rad-ass cams.. Same as Saab and VW Golf..

Last edited by John V, outside agitator; 05-23-2018 at 12:54 PM..
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Old 05-23-2018, 04:03 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by vwbusman66 View Post
And it proves that the 530 sucks donkey a** and is the major restrictor in the stock engine after replacing the anemic "M" cam. Kolton saw good gains and a powerband shift (as expected) with a slotted "K" cam. The addition of the cam and now the header (and lack of improvement post header) demonstrates the poor flow of the 530 head.
No... It demonstrates a lack of a matching system that would result in improved performance. What part of this video includes dyno graphs or tune information that shows what changes the header made? I would bet money that the power curves and optimal tune DID change between the stock and aftermarket header.

Not only that, but THE INTAKE, MAN.... How is this all the “head’s problem” and not the intake’s at all? I bet you it’s a combination of both, but definitely not limited to the head.
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Old 05-23-2018, 05:59 AM   #20
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A FB freind who is in the business might give us a little insight on if they are actually doing 180.. becuase's been no change freeing up anything and the figure used to be about 155 crank HP..
back in 2006-2008 we managed to squeeze out 147whp on the RICA dyno. (fresh overhauled engine with flattop B230E pistons, decked 530-head, slotted H-cam, B234F injectors, LH2.4 remapped, EZ-K remapped, full 2.5" exhaust with absorption silencers, empty cat)

Using this very same engine we later tried swapping the newer style intake manifold for the older style (B230E) intake manifold. I clearly remember being disappointed because after all that work getting to make the newer throttlebody+TPS to work on that old style manifold it ran pretty much the same, hardly any improvement at all. (just a seat dyno assesment, we did not have it dynoed with the older style manifold.)
We went back to the newer manifold and called it good.
In those seasons that car was one of the fastest VOCH cars in NL.
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Old 05-23-2018, 09:06 AM   #21
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TONS..and endless..30 years of discussion..How ell do you read Swedish?

sävarturbo.se
http://forum.savarturbo.se/
google translate is pretty good if the 6 inches between your ears works well enough.
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Old 05-23-2018, 12:51 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
TONS..and endless..30 years of discussion..How ell do you read Swedish?

sävarturbo.se
http://forum.savarturbo.se/

Glad to see you here, John. I was beginning to worry...

My Swedish isn't as good as Google Translate's.
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Old 05-23-2018, 12:53 PM   #23
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google translate is pretty good if the 6 inches between your ears works well enough.
Good enough for French, some German, and a little bit of Spanish, Italian, and Czech...
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Old 05-23-2018, 01:06 PM   #24
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No... It demonstrates a lack of a matching system that would result in improved performance. What part of this video includes dyno graphs or tune information that shows what changes the header made? I would bet money that the power curves and optimal tune DID change between the stock and aftermarket header.

Not only that, but THE INTAKE, MAN.... How is this all the “head’s problem” and not the intake’s at all? I bet you it’s a combination of both, but definitely not limited to the head.

Right.
The vid is the equivalent of somebody saying "I dino-ed a trillion mile motor after I put this cam on the right (and did nothing else) and it didn't do a thing..That proves the blah blah blah is makes no more powerz than the stock cam on the left!"


Proves nothing...except a basic lack of understanding of how motors work.
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Old 05-23-2018, 01:10 PM   #25
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he should stick to sliding around in ****boxes..
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