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Old 05-23-2018, 01:25 PM   #26
klr142
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Originally Posted by Janspeed View Post
back in 2006-2008 we managed to squeeze out 147whp on the RICA dyno. (fresh overhauled engine with flattop B230E pistons, decked 530-head, slotted H-cam, B234F injectors, LH2.4 remapped, EZ-K remapped, full 2.5" exhaust with absorption silencers, empty cat)

Using this very same engine we later tried swapping the newer style intake manifold for the older style (B230E) intake manifold. I clearly remember being disappointed because after all that work getting to make the newer throttlebody+TPS to work on that old style manifold it ran pretty much the same, hardly any improvement at all. (just a seat dyno assesment, we did not have it dynoed with the older style manifold.)
We went back to the newer manifold and called it good.
In those seasons that car was one of the fastest VOCH cars in NL.
Bummer to hear the K-jet intake manifold didn't work for you guys. I assume it needs the 16V throttle body(or larger) and an adapter for more plenum volume to work better. Or just the throttle body relocated to the front of the plenum(and still using a larger one), at least that's what Erland suggests.

That being said, how much was taken off the 530 head and what kind of gas did you guys need to run it on?

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Old 05-23-2018, 02:33 PM   #27
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God DAMMIT John. Will you just tell me which intake manifold to put on my Volvo already!

****!
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Old 05-23-2018, 02:42 PM   #28
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God DAMMIT John. Will you just tell me which intake manifold to put on my Volvo already!

****!
Turbo? Any..It'll get in and the fraction of % of CFM can be made up for by turning up the BOOST.
THAT's the magic of turbos--it'll cram stuff on regardless of sh***ty intake... (go look at the disgusting intake candelabra on Ford Lima..After you wipe up the puke reflect that those cars make moar Powerz on average than Redblocks. With that junk mnaifolding.. When turbo-ed)

N.a.? Minimum 48 DCOES or maybe 45 ITBs

result=
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kVRBJ0gPRg
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Old 05-23-2018, 02:50 PM   #29
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A +t probably would have cost the same as that header.....
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Thank you very much everybody... i now feel sufficiently retarded and will go cry in the corner...
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Old 05-23-2018, 03:24 PM   #30
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That's it. I'm turning my 15g up to 30psi
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Old 05-23-2018, 07:11 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by klr142 View Post
Other than the fact that it has no plenum and small runners?

I have dyno'd over 133wchp with one and the stock airbox(pre-heat unblocked and re-routed for cold air), so it's possible to make more hp with it, at least.
I wonder what the VOC guys who are getting 180+ crank HP out of them are doing inside the manifold.

They aren't..

I asked a mutual accomplice of a friend, owner and head honcho at High Speed Engines...who mentioned a week ago he was mapping a VOC car..

I asked:
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to Björn Ånvedh

hej Björn Ånvedh! Får ja fråga ett par -tre saker?
Hi Björn! may I ask a coupla three things?
Det snackas så mycket ren skit-prat härborta i U-landet USa om Volvo motorer o även VOC o det är just VOC jag vill fråga om...
there's a lotta sh!t-talk over here in the third-world USA about Volvo motors and even VOC and its just VOC I want to ask about


Först....realistisk vad ser du att typiskt VOC motorer ger för hk o vridmoment?
lagligt VOC menar ja...
First...realistically what do you see a typical VOC motor give for HP and torque? legal VOC I mean

O sen av alla VOC godkända insugnings rör, eller bäätre alla B21/B23/B230 insug, är det nån meningfulla skilnader?

and then, of all the approved intake manifolds or better, all B21/B23/B230 intakes is there any meaningful differences?

Och sen,vad ser du som största restriktion i en typ VOC motor bortsett från kam o komp?

And then. what do you see as the biggest restriction in a type VOC motor aside from cam and compression?

Och ren nyfilenhet vad är bästa siffror du har sett i en VOC motor?

And out of pure curiosity what's the best numbers you have seen in a VOC motor?

Hoppas du ser detta..
Tackar! o hälsninar från Nord-västra USA.

Hope you see this, thanks, and greetings from the NW USA.

Here's the answer minutes ago


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Quote:
Hej.... ca 150hk...
Bästa runt 165hk...
B230 ger mest hk mkt pga lite friare reglemente för B230 motorn...
Hela insugnings sidan är den största restriktorn
Quote:
Hi! (typical) around 150hp
best round 165hp
B230 gives the most a lot on account of little freer regulations for the B230 motor
The Whole intake side is the biggest restriction

Typical 150...same as 25 tears ago
best around 165...same as about 25 years ago

and miraculously

same as 35---40 years ago "the whole intake side" is the biggest restriction..

Sorry boys...Some of us have paid the rent making high hp n.a. motors and some of us are lucky to know guys who have been doing serious profession work for competition with much deeper fields for guys a lot more dedicated and a lot more demanding for even longer who they can call and ask and not waste time talking about some kid in a garage blabbing about some worn out junk stock junk.
That's why I said move to TBOT cause that's where this vid and most of the discussion belongs..
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Old 05-24-2018, 11:10 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
Right.
The vid is the equivalent of somebody saying "I dino-ed a trillion mile motor after I put this cam on the right (and did nothing else) and it didn't do a thing..That proves the blah blah blah is makes no more powerz than the stock cam on the left!"
To be fair though, that is a situation that a lot of those headers will be used in... So for those purposes, its not a bad test.

the TLDR, Might not be worth buying an exhaust header for your stock 300k 8v motor.
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Old 05-24-2018, 02:16 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by blkaplan View Post
To be fair though, that is a situation that a lot of those headers will be used in... So for those purposes, its not a bad test.

the TLDR, Might not be worth buying an exhaust header for your stock 300k 8v motor.
TLDR...I always knew you were a lightweight whiner but ^ that is too long?
That's why you remain uninformed.
Here--as short as can be done just so you don't strain yourself and need to lie down.
People are saying VOC cars are making "180+ hp"
I asked one of Swedens top engine builders who was just recently mapping a VOC car; here is the answer:
Quote:
Hi! (typical) around 150hp
best round 165hp
B230 gives the most a lot on account of little freer regulations for the B230 motor
The Whole intake side is the biggest restriction
Typical 150...same as 25 tears ago
best around 165...same as about 25 years ago

and miraculously

same as 35---40 years ago "the whole intake side" is the biggest restriction..

I hope you're not too exhausted..Maybe sit down quietly for 5 minutes and rest.
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Old 05-24-2018, 02:42 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
TLDR...I always knew you were a lightweight whiner but ^ that is too long?
That's why you remain uninformed.
Here--as short as can be done just so you don't strain yourself and need to lie down.
People are saying VOC cars are making "180+ hp"
I asked one of Swedens top engine builders who was just recently mapping a VOC car; here is the answer:


Typical 150...same as 25 tears ago
best around 165...same as about 25 years ago

and miraculously

same as 35---40 years ago "the whole intake side" is the biggest restriction..

I hope you're not too exhausted..Maybe sit down quietly for 5 minutes and rest.
What are you jabbering on about now?
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Old 05-24-2018, 02:55 PM   #35
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Nothing's black magic. Basics to moderate power levels are cake, period. Start off rich and retarded, like your president.
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Old 05-24-2018, 02:56 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
TLDR...I always knew you were a lightweight whiner but ^ that is too long?
That's why you remain uninformed.

I hope you're not too exhausted..Maybe sit down quietly for 5 minutes and rest.
John, why must you be such a douche to as good of a guy as Ben? Did he (or anyone in this thread so far) instigate you?

Me, I can understand- I am the product of trying to have fun on a budget, but Ben produces top notch products shipped around the world, and most likeley run in your oh so holy rally cars (GASP).

So yeah, bully me for sharing and trying to appreciate the video, but not somebody who has earned more than their share of credibility.
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Old 05-24-2018, 05:22 PM   #37
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John, why must you be such a douche to as good of a guy as Ben? Did he (or anyone in this thread so far) instigate you?

Me, I can understand- I am the product of trying to have fun on a budget, but Ben produces top notch products shipped around the world, and most likeley run in your oh so holy rally cars (GASP).

So yeah, bully me for sharing and trying to appreciate the video, but not somebody who has earned more than their share of credibility.
This sort of pure unadulterated Bullsh!t and your name calling is one reason I have gotten sick of Turbobricks and whiny ass boy-children. People post crap which is obvious and act as it it is some discovery..
and post BS claims like "VOC cars making 180+ hp"

Then I take the time to write a top and experienced engine builder with a REAL world wide reputation and ask him to clarify--since we were just a couple of weeks ago looking at him mapping on a dyno a VOC car and he is nice enough to answer something that has been hashed about for 15 years here----and Ben can't be troubled to read what would take approximate 2-3 minutes...Too Long Didn't Read...



That's pretty silly. And lazy..Douchey as you might say...if you were honest>

Do you cry in real life like this?

Believe whatever you want but there are some who appreciate solid information from well known and respected professionals who have been working on these motors since you and your buddies have been alive.

(A free pro-tip: collectively you don't have to learn from your own mistakes, you can learn from other's mistakes...

But you'll learn nothing useful if you don't try and whine at people who have done crazier **** than 99% are trying to do..and who share good information...even it's in a form you don't like)

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Old 05-24-2018, 05:24 PM   #38
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What are you jabbering on about now?
Still having trouble with reading I see..Sad.
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Old 05-24-2018, 06:04 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
Then I take the time to write a top and experienced engine builder with a REAL world wide reputation and ask him to clarify--since we were just a couple of weeks ago looking at him mapping on a dyno a VOC car and he is nice enough to answer something that has been hashed about for 15 years here----and Ben can't be troubled to read what would take approximate 2-3 minutes...Too Long Didn't Read...
I did read what you wrote and I thought it was interesting and good info but saying that

Quote:
You really think that vid of a 22 y.o. kid screwing with a stock B230F and concluding that his customer "needs" a 531 head---and that sight unseen he's going to improve things by porting it belongs in "performance" and is "discussion" ?

This belongs in Off Topic..

the vid proves nothing because the 'test" proves nothing..
Is wrong, it does prove something. It proves that spending money on an exhaust header on a stock head with a regular old motor and a K cam doesn't make any additional power.

Problem is you are too old to understand the context in how TLDR was used.
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Old 05-24-2018, 06:34 PM   #40
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I did read what you wrote and I thought it was interesting and good info but saying that



Is wrong, it does prove something. It proves that spending money on an exhaust header on a stock head with a regular old motor and a K cam doesn't make any additional power.

Problem is you are too old to understand the context in how TLDR was used.
Proves nothing to any person with even half a brain.
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Old 05-24-2018, 06:43 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by blkaplan View Post
I did read what you wrote and I thought it was interesting and good info but saying that



Is wrong, it does prove something. It proves that spending money on an exhaust header on a stock head with a regular old motor and a K cam doesn't make any additional power.

Problem is you are too old to understand the context in how TLDR was used.
Nah man, 7:1 compression, and 80s turbos ftw
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Old 05-24-2018, 07:22 PM   #42
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Proves nothing to any person with even half a brain.
Lots of folks running around with less than 1/2 a brain.
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Old 05-24-2018, 08:44 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
Then I take the time to write a top and experienced engine builder with a REAL world wide reputation and ask him to clarify--since we were just a couple of weeks ago looking at him mapping on a dyno a VOC car and he is nice enough to answer something that has been hashed about for 15 years here----and Ben can't be troubled to read what would take approximate 2-3 minutes...Too Long Didn't Read..
Thanks John! I appreciate you and this builder taking the time.

The "too long; didn't read" comment was Ben saving OTHER people from reading the ENTIRE thread by saying what the video proved: "Putting a header on your junk doesn't more power make." He didn't say that HE didn't read anything. So all this banter regarding that was about nothing.
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Old 05-24-2018, 08:54 PM   #44
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Thanks John! I appreciate you and this builder taking the time.

The "too long; didn't read" comment was Ben saving OTHER people from reading the ENTIRE thread by saying what the video proved: "Putting a header on your junk doesn't more power make." He didn't say that HE didn't read anything. So all this banter regarding that was about nothing.
He did not make that clear..TLDR immediately below quoted text...kinda foolishly thought that meant it applied to the text it was adjacent to.. What ever

But it is nice that Björn Ånvedh would answer that and be confirmation of what I was told 25 years ago and have been saying forever. Its just so tiring to see HP inflation and numbers go up every so many years...Like "Group B cars were 550hp beasts.." (Yeah drivers and crew were saying 380 back then --and nobody knows the ft/lbs)

In all the chest puffing and crying from the trigger boys the useful news about ALL the manifolds being a major problem for normal aspirated power gets buried....and that's a shame.

Soon the whole thread will ratchet down and be lost...then TB can blabber about stuff as before.
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Old 05-24-2018, 09:39 PM   #45
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But it is nice that Björn Ånvedh would answer that and be confirmation of what I was told 25 years ago and have been saying forever. Its just so tiring to see HP inflation and numbers go up every so many years...Like "Group B cars were 550hp beasts.." (Yeah drivers and crew were saying 380 back then --and nobody knows the ft/lbs)

In all the chest puffing and crying from the trigger boys the useful news about ALL the manifolds being a major problem for normal aspirated power gets buried....and that's a shame.

Soon the whole thread will ratchet down and be lost...then TB can blabber about stuff as before.
Yes John, toot your own horn about how you're right in your own small mind and some Nordic guy proves you right.
Nobody gives a damn about your cranky old opinions or desire to be a pain in the ass. In reality, this is turbobricks, not naturally-aspirated (and barely usable power band) bricks.

Moderators, my apologies for opening up this pile up. I'll return to my prior state.
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Old 05-24-2018, 10:34 PM   #46
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Yes John, toot your own horn about how you're right in your own small mind and some Nordic guy proves you right.
Nobody gives a damn about your cranky old opinions or desire to be a pain in the ass. In reality, this is turbobricks, not naturally-aspirated (and barely usable power band) bricks.

Moderators, my apologies for opening up this pile up. I'll return to my prior state.
You're funny... ranting and raving. Truth is a lot of guys have cared about my opinions.that's why they call me and order nice stuff. And they don't call you...

You just keep saying funny things and proving you haven't ever done anything..Or know anything..
Pitiful.
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Old 05-24-2018, 10:54 PM   #47
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You're funny... ranting and raving. Truth is a lot of guys have cared about my opinions.that's why they call me and order nice stuff. And they don't call you...

You just keep saying funny things and proving you haven't ever done anything..Or know anything..
Pitiful.
There's a reason my boss lets me (an 18 year old kid) head up restoration projects

I know some stuff and have done some stuff.
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Old 05-25-2018, 08:13 AM   #48
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Still having trouble with reading I see..Sad.
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He did not make that clear..TLDR immediately below quoted text...kinda foolishly thought that meant it applied to the text it was adjacent to.. What ever




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Old 05-25-2018, 08:30 AM   #49
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Has there ever been a real discussion as to what exactly is wrong with the LH intake manifold? Any theories?
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Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
TONS..and endless..30 years of discussion..How ell do you read Swedish?

sävarturbo.se
http://forum.savarturbo.se/
So the English answer, on the english-speaking forum, is "no".
But it seems we are having that discussion, so we have that going for us.
Thank you for the link, and thank you google, for improving translation. The last time I tried to use any translation software on swedish, it was useless.
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Old 05-25-2018, 09:59 AM   #50
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to be fair, John's trumpeting things that most people that have been here for a while either think or say, and that is "search noob".

We have the internet, the google translate has been good enough for at least a decade for me to figure out what they're getting at on the subjects I've spent time looking for (that's the hard part, figuring out what search terms to use to get the info you want).

The issue at hand is that here, and really across the board, the new generation workforce doesn't actually seem to want to work to learn. They want to be handed things, they don't wan't to really know the whys and wherefores, just the how, and that's very frustrating to the people that have spent the time and effort to research and try and do.

The end result, at least over the past few years for me, has to just let most of yall writhe in your own filth. If you can't be bothered, why should I be bothered? It's well documented that ideologically me and the agitator are pretty much diametrically opposed when it comes to discussions on the forums, but the reality of it is that we're probably a lot more alike than either of us cares to admit to. In this case he's right.

This dyno test doesn't prove anything really. I kinda wanted it to, but thought that it probably wouldn't because of my past work and tinkering and reading. A number of these subjects that come up have been hashed out at great length even on this forum (rod length comes to mind for a great polarizing discussion), but it takes time and effort to dig that info up, just like it takes time to dig up info on savarturbo if you're not swedish or speak swedish.

To put things in a different frame: how can you draw accurate conclusions from an experiment if you haven't accounted for most/all of the variables?
Is the header worthless?
Is there a problem somewhere else upstream?
What was going on dynamically across the range for the test?
Was it tested without the stub exhaust? What were those results?
Are you sure the cam is actually degreed correctly?
Are you sure the cam isn't worn and skewing results?
Are you sure the springs are still up to the task?

I'm not trying to bust balls, I'm all about some trial and error stuff; but prior art should not be ignored esp if one is attempting to be efficient with their modding (i.e. cheap).

what turbo should I run? how much boost a stock can support? lemme get that stage 47 super turbo cam, it'll add like 80 hp and sound wicked. Why's my car slow? (or, more likely the blissfully ignorant who don't know that their car is woefully under performing for the mods. See also volvospeed)
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