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Old 05-09-2011, 06:45 PM   #726
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What's the quickest way to clear the LH again? KPII and pull the ECU fuse? (#1)
Yes. If the fuel pumps prime again when you insert the fuse, it's done.

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I think with foot off super lean means no gas which I assume is a good thing cause your just costing
Yeah, if you're over 1500rpm off throttle, LH2.4 will shut off the injectors completely to save gas and help compression braking. That's normal.
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Old 05-09-2011, 09:18 PM   #727
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Yes. If the fuel pumps prime again when you insert the fuse, it's done.



Yeah, if you're over 1500rpm off throttle, LH2.4 will shut off the injectors completely to save gas and help compression braking. That's normal.
This is right so your afr gauge is showing - - - then youre in the right direction. Keep us posted
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Old 05-09-2011, 11:09 PM   #728
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Well, I double checked for leaks. I found none, though it's possible that I'm having an issue with the old pierburg CBV. I have an automatic so I think I can live with it for a while. One the way home from work, the lean on coast had resolved itself. Now it's in the 17s & 18s.

More alarming is as soon as boost comes up, it's the same overall issue as before. As soon as boost gets to around 10 PSI, the AFRs drop to below 10:1. This time however, it's hesitating a bit stays this way right up to 20PSI.

Tomorrow I'll pull one of the plugs and see how it looks.

Any other thoughts or should I let it relearn again?

Is there anything I can do to help it learn?
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Old 05-09-2011, 11:37 PM   #729
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Something just occurred to me. Should I have disconnected the EZK box as well? Does that need to relearn as well?
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Old 05-10-2011, 04:52 AM   #730
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HMMMM,
I had the same issue earlier this year,
-- put in 42lbs injectors, left the 016 AMM, ran the chips,-- and as soon as I was the other side of 10psi-- the same happened. Mixture got far too fat. the car did not go the other side of 5200 refs.
Changed back to the standard injectors, left the chips in -- same happens to lesser degree, but severe hesitation 3800 - 4400. once on the other side of 5200, it pulls strong.
Also it was not very responsive around 2000 refs.
checked for leaks, left it re learn several times,-- issue did not resolve itself.

Lack of time forced me to return to the standard chips + injectors, and I run this set up with 12 psi boost. works perfect.
It may not have the same top end power but otherwise things run smooth.

I may return to the project in summer when I have more time and nerves to try around.
I also would try to get a wide-band AFR gauge first, -- to see exactly what is going on.
I have a 3" Amm from the 960' which I want to try in combination with 42lbs injectors and the chips, -- maybe that harmonizes better?

so, I am looking forward to see how others get around that one.
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Old 05-10-2011, 12:04 PM   #731
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I'm running 3" intake with a 960 AMM. No codes are on the box. Car starts just fine and idles in the 14.5-15.5 AFR range.


Same thing happened this morning. As soon as 9 or 10 PSI comes in, it gets WAY too fat and the engine stumbles quite a bit. If I can manage to hold 8PSI or so, I can get it to stand on 12.5-13.5 AFR.

As I said, I'll pull a plug before I leave for home tonight and report on the findings. I'll also see if I can block off the CBV and see if that's the leak source.

If I can, this weekend I'll check the intake for leaks with a can of starting either, but I doubt the leak, if there is one, is there.

This is becoming very frustrating.
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Old 05-10-2011, 12:25 PM   #732
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After resetting make sure to get 200+ miles on the ecu to let it learn.

If you really feel the chips are wonkey feel free to pm me and I can send you a chip with fuel pulled out I just need to know details on where and how much.
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Old 05-10-2011, 01:01 PM   #733
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After resetting make sure to get 200+ miles on the ecu to let it learn.

If you really feel the chips are wonkey feel free to pm me and I can send you a chip with fuel pulled out I just need to know details on where and how much.
I'll wait until it comes to that. I don't know that the chips are wonky, I just can't find another cause. (yet)

Should I spend as much time as I can on the plus side of 10PSI to force it to learn?
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Old 05-10-2011, 01:11 PM   #734
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If I do need to replace the stock CBV, is this one a good substitute? based on what I've read somewhere it's the same one on certain Porches and Audis.

Last edited by Ursan; 05-10-2011 at 01:27 PM..
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Old 05-10-2011, 01:47 PM   #735
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If I do need to replace the stock CBV, is this one a good substitute? based on what I've read somewhere it's the same one on certain Porches and Audis.
thats the exact same bypass valve i'll be using again when im done building the engine, even though my success with it a few years ago was a fail but Im pretty sure my plumbing was way wrong
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Old 05-10-2011, 01:49 PM   #736
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Should I spend as much time as I can on the plus side of 10PSI to force it to learn?
From what I know, LH learns every time you enter boost (go WOT). But there would be nothing gained from staying in boost, just getting to full boost.
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Old 05-10-2011, 02:00 PM   #737
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For my car to get it to learn I spent my time on the highway at cruise with 1-2 mild pulls up to speed a day. Otherwise lots of around town driving so the car can see different drive cycles.
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Old 05-10-2011, 04:22 PM   #738
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At this point, I can only do mild pulls. I spend about 90% of my trip on highways back & forth.
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Old 06-05-2011, 01:35 AM   #739
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put it in 75lbs injectors. ran fine on pump gas. then put in e85 runs fine... better than fine. Off throttle, intial acceleration is kinda boggy, but i've only driven 10 miles so far.

What i can tell so far is that the car at 17psi in 3rd gear from a 65 - 80mph pull with e85 AND with 3 people in the car, feels as fast or faster than a pull in 2nd gear from 35 to 55mph on pump gas and only me driving it. The car literally scares me now. It's such a beast.
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Old 07-06-2011, 08:42 AM   #740
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my car mods

Precision 6031
Custom turbo mani
3" full exhaust from DP back
AMM 012
Browntops
Upgrade IC
3" IC piping
Hks SS
Ipd cam and gear set to 0
Wideband
Aem tru boost gauge/controller
TLAO chips

Car runs find cruising, then when I get on it, around 5200 an up it goes leam 13.5- 14.5 so I get off running 19psi, so I figured ill install my 75lb injectors, pretty much run rough as hell anything after 4 grand it spits and sputters, gauge reads in the 10s, so now I'm running rich, so now that being said, do you think I just need to let the Lh learn witht the bigger injectors? I want to be able to get on my car, so I keep switching back to the browntops, I guess I shouldn't and need to be patient, if that's why it runs like that ill be patient and wait, I guess that's my issue, just lemme know if I should just run them and let LH learn, was also thinking of running E85 eventually, but I wanna get this figured out first
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Old 07-06-2011, 08:43 AM   #741
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my car mods

Precision 6031
Custom turbo mani
3" full exhaust from DP back
AMM 012
Browntops
Upgrade IC
3" IC piping
Hks SS
Ipd cam and gear set to 0
Wideband
Aem tru boost gauge/controller
TLAO chips

Car runs find cruising, then when I get on it, around 5200 an up it goes leam 13.5- 14.5 so I get off running 19psi, so I figured ill install my 75lb injectors, pretty much run rough as hell anything after 4 grand it spits and sputters, gauge reads in the 10s, so now I'm running rich, so now that being said, do you think I just need to let the Lh learn witht the bigger injectors? I want to be able to get on my car, so I keep switching back to the browntops, I guess I shouldn't and need to be patient, if that's why it runs like that ill be patient and wait, I guess that's my issue, just lemme know if I should just run them and let LH learn, was also thinking of running E85 eventually, but I wanna get this figured out first
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Old 07-06-2011, 09:35 AM   #742
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yep, it needs to learn. thats a big change in size. if you have some 500cc or so injectors it wont be as bad untill it learns. but yeah, the BTs are toooo smallllll
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Old 07-06-2011, 12:31 PM   #743
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Thanks a lot man
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Old 07-06-2011, 07:14 PM   #744
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Old 07-07-2011, 05:10 AM   #745
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Update

i returned to the project about 6 weeks ago.
I fitted a new manual boost controller, which made a big difference. No more spiking and boost creep.
then I fitted the 012 amm alongside the 42lbs delphies.
Ran well with the stock chip in a 984 ecu. There were two issues:
1) small amount of pinging when accelerating. this was eventually looked after by earthing pin 19 = 6deg. retard.
2) on the other side of 3500/min and when boost was up, the car was running rich, sometime to the point, that it was hessitating.

I then put in the TLAO chips, both and experienced pretty much the same but in an aggravated fashion. OK, the EZK was retarded again, but the running rich issue was worse than with the standard ECU chip. there was a lot of power between 4500 and 6000, but a lot of stumbling on half throttle and in the region 1800 - 3000/min. The exhaust pipe was black and the plugs nearly black and the turbo well dark red.

So, then returned to the standard chips.

meantime, I got in contact with stoni, who was looking at all the different chips (BSR, TLAO, FRED,) and who found, that the TLAO chip is getting far too rich on the other side of 3500. (this is what I experienced)
He also found, that the serial chip is getting on the rich side the other side of 3500, which causes bad fuel economy and less power.

I ordered a fuel chip from stoni, which is stoich till 3500 and from there on only slightly enriched. The ref limiter is at 6800 and the fuel cut set to the highest value.

i drove that chip in above setup for about 700 miles and the result is the following:

Car pulls well from low refs. No hesitation when putting down the foot. It may have a little less power top end, which I don't mind. the tail pipe is light gray; the plugs are gray with light brown tops. the fuel economy is improved; on a test run (standard business trip 500 miles, which I do regularly) it took average 8,2L / 100 km instead of 9,1 / 100 with standard chip set.
The pinging issue remained and is remedied by retarding the standard EZK 6 degrees.
I got a chip for the EZK today. I put it in the car. The engine is pulling better from 3500 up well over 6k. Below 3500 no difference. Still had to retard 6 deg, otherwise pinging when accelerating.
the tight squish set up ignites quicker, this is the reason, why I need less ignition advance.

Conclusion:
The TLAO chip is a good chip for American conditions, where fuel economy does not come into it. A lot of power can be made with these chips, as they bucket petrol into the engine. The limit of the injectors seem to determine if it runs too lean or too rich. (bigger injectors=too rich under boost and high refs)
This is suitable for big turbo's with big boost.
This comes at the cost of drive ability in a day-to-day condition and poor fuel economy , alongside a lot of heat unnecessarily produced by poor combustion.

The stoni chips are more geared towards European conditions, where fuel price is an issue at 1,65 Euro per litre, and where drive ability in a day-to-day situation is a must with most of the cars. the turbo's here are a bit more moderate and the boost levels not as high.
BTW,: I haven't tried the chips under high boost (14psi +) or with a big turbo.

cheers, Hans

Last edited by HansW; 07-07-2011 at 10:04 AM..
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Old 07-07-2011, 10:34 AM   #746
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I get 23mpg on the freeway on e85.
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Old 07-07-2011, 10:46 AM   #747
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I get 23mpg on the freeway on e85.
and 29mpg on Pump gas . . . on the same chips everyone else is using.


Sorry to hear some of your having issues.

Everything I have seen in local cars is very different than these super rich running setups. And for every person who complains about 10:1 afr's and a rich misfire I hear 5x as many people having no issues and afr's being correct. There are a lot of things on LH that can affect afr's and if you are not on top of the shape of things it can cause issues.


It is funny how so many people seem to ignore and try to tune around something wrong with their car. Heck even brett knows of this as he has 'tuned' out this rich spot in LH that he can not explain to the point where if that chip was run on another car it would be very unsafe lean.

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Old 07-07-2011, 10:53 AM   #748
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Well, I double checked for leaks. I found none, though it's possible that I'm having an issue with the old pierburg CBV. I have an automatic so I think I can live with it for a while. One the way home from work, the lean on coast had resolved itself. Now it's in the 17s & 18s.

More alarming is as soon as boost comes up, it's the same overall issue as before. As soon as boost gets to around 10 PSI, the AFRs drop to below 10:1. This time however, it's hesitating a bit stays this way right up to 20PSI.

Tomorrow I'll pull one of the plugs and see how it looks.

Any other thoughts or should I let it relearn again?

Is there anything I can do to help it learn?
Same problem I have. Everythime I get into wot it goes so rich I it starts to sputter and lurch and my plugs will foul out.
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Old 07-07-2011, 10:53 AM   #749
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Old 07-07-2011, 12:52 PM   #750
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The TLAO chip is a good chip for American conditions, where fuel economy does not come into it. A lot of power can be made with these chips, as they bucket petrol into the engine. The limit of the injectors seem to determine if it runs too lean or too rich. (bigger injectors=too rich under boost and high refs)
This is suitable for big turbo's with big boost.
This comes at the cost of drive ability in a day-to-day condition and poor fuel economy , alongside a lot of heat unnecessarily produced by poor combustion.

The stoni chips are more geared towards European conditions, where fuel price is an issue at 1,65 Euro per litre, and where drive ability in a day-to-day situation is a must with most of the cars. the turbo's here are a bit more moderate and the boost levels not as high.
BTW,: I haven't tried the chips under high boost (14psi +) or with a big turbo.

cheers, Hans
I've ridden in more than one "TLAO" chipped car and i've also seen the maps used and there is no reason for your fuel milage to be worse.

Something is wrong.

Especially with lambda on Mofugger justs rocks back and fourth from 14.7
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