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Old 10-01-2020, 02:12 PM   #1
The_Geoffrey
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Default What MAF for 300hp and above?

Hi all

I posted a while back to see the variation of setups people were running for 250hp. Following on from the results, and a change in ambition, Iíve decided to aim for nearer 300hp with the potential to go even further still.

A fair few of you were running the 3Ē MAF from the 1990-1994 960, Bosch part no. 0280213012, and teamed it with a set of chips.

My question is, do I need to upgrade to this MAF for my power goals and if so what is its ceiling for more power going forward? Also is it essential to go for a genuine Bosch item (they are mega expensive in the UK) or will a repro be ok to use?

Thanks in advance
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Old 10-01-2020, 02:27 PM   #2
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Megasquirt and no MAF.
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Old 10-01-2020, 03:20 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMc View Post
Megasquirt and no MAF.
I've been toying with incorporating a Ford lightning maf with my microsquirt setup, since there map for it is already there.
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Old 10-01-2020, 04:29 PM   #4
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Bosch -012 and -025 are the best choices from stock ones. Size is the same, I was told there is a small difference in the curve. Current aftermarket versions are not nearly as good and have a large variation on how they work(and how long). I would look for a spare from a working car.

You could also fit the stock -016 into a larger pipe even though it changes the measuring a bit. But it's the oldest trick and has worked in the past. After that it's all about the tune.
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Old 10-01-2020, 05:38 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMc View Post
Megasquirt and no MAF.
This would be an ideal solution if budget wasnít an issue!

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Originally Posted by Lankku View Post
Bosch -012 and -025 are the best choices from stock ones. Size is the same, I was told there is a small difference in the curve. Current aftermarket versions are not nearly as good and have a large variation on how they work(and how long). I would look for a spare from a working car.

You could also fit the stock -016 into a larger pipe even though it changes the measuring a bit. But it's the oldest trick and has worked in the past. After that it's all about the tune.
Used versions of the 012 are very few and far between in the UK, havenít checked the other part number but I will.

I just canít justify spending £300+ on a part I can get for £70-80, obviously it wonít be genuine Bosch but maybe worth the gamble.

The DIY tube expansion sounds interesting, I like messing about modifying stuff which requires a bit of ingenuity!
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Old 10-01-2020, 09:23 PM   #6
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Looking at the fuel table for the stock 016 MAF on a stock motor/head with a B cam and t3/t4 at 20psi, it will max the fuel table out at around 16psi. On a stock motor, IPD cam, Garrett 2871R at 20psi, with the 012 MAF, it's still on the fuel table at 20psi, though it's off the spark table by 15psi still. Granted EZH and LH will interpolate when off the tables, but still, the 012 will keep you closer to being on the fuel table as the boost and turbo size goes up. That said, on E85 at 20psi the car was putting down around 280whp.
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Old 10-02-2020, 01:12 AM   #7
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Old 10-02-2020, 10:15 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Geoffrey View Post
This would be an ideal solution if budget wasnít an issue!



Used versions of the 012 are very few and far between in the UK, havenít checked the other part number but I will.

I just canít justify spending £300+ on a part I can get for £70-80, obviously it wonít be genuine Bosch but maybe worth the gamble.

The DIY tube expansion sounds interesting, I like messing about modifying stuff which requires a bit of ingenuity!
The aftermarket ones just do not work. Out of 20pcs I found 3 that worked to some extent but soon failed after. Genuine Bosch rebuilt is about £350

You can as suggested transfer the 016 workings into a 012 case https://www.classicswede.co.uk/02802..._20534598.aspx
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Old 10-02-2020, 01:28 PM   #9
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I don't see why Microsquirt/Megasquirt would be a big budget item. You are going to be spending a lot of money on turbo, fuel pumps, injectors, wideband, etc. Spending $350 on a Microsquirt computer, and another $125 on sensors, that you can find in any auto parts store for cheap, isn't a huge hit.

For that you get a programmable engine management system capable of controlling and LOGGING the fuel and spark system. Relying on 30+ year old Bosch rebuilt or dodgy Chinese knockoff sensors, when a lean condition will eject your pistons, seems like more of a risk than it's worth.
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Old 10-02-2020, 05:28 PM   #10
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It is not just the £500+ you spend on the MS itself but the time involved setting it up that is the put off
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Old 10-02-2020, 06:53 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classicswede View Post
The aftermarket ones just do not work. Out of 20pcs I found 3 that worked to some extent but soon failed after. Genuine Bosch rebuilt is about £350

You can as suggested transfer the 016 workings into a 012 case https://www.classicswede.co.uk/02802..._20534598.aspx
I like the idea of the bigger housing, especially if itís worked for other people. The only thing Iím slightly concerned about is how good my existing 016 MAF is. Is there any way of testing it? It seemed to work properly when the engine ran?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rb92673 View Post
I don't see why Microsquirt/Megasquirt would be a big budget item. You are going to be spending a lot of money on turbo, fuel pumps, injectors, wideband, etc. Spending $350 on a Microsquirt computer, and another $125 on sensors, that you can find in any auto parts store for cheap, isn't a huge hit.

For that you get a programmable engine management system capable of controlling and LOGGING the fuel and spark system. Relying on 30+ year old Bosch rebuilt or dodgy Chinese knockoff sensors, when a lean condition will eject your pistons, seems like more of a risk than it's worth.
Show me where I can get all of the equipment required for a reasonable price and Iíd consider it. Then there is the additional cost of finding someone who will tune it for me.
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Old 10-02-2020, 08:21 PM   #12
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I have a Bosch remanufactured 025 AMM I want to sell. Send me a PM if you are interested in it.
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Old 10-03-2020, 11:37 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Geoffrey View Post

Show me where I can get all of the equipment required for a reasonable price and Iíd consider it. Then there is the additional cost of finding someone who will tune it for me.
Do you know how to google? Lots of cheap, complete megasquirt clones available, for example RusEFI. Secondly, Who's going to "tune" your LH for free?
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Old 10-03-2020, 03:24 PM   #14
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Stock up on head gaskets from FCP and tune it yourself. I'm about 10-12 in.
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Old 10-03-2020, 03:50 PM   #15
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I used to be very pro-LH.. and it is a usable system. But its not free to mod either. If you can make chips yourself you can go far, but you need to live with some drawbacks that will be inevitable no matter what you try.

Make a decision. What is your goal.
Basic FT swap/+T with stock-ish Volvo turbo's is easy to manage with LH.
Want to go much further? Really think about it, you'll easily pass the cost/benefit against LH, it just makes sense to go for a good EMS.
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Old 10-03-2020, 04:51 PM   #16
The_Geoffrey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sjeng View Post
Do you know how to google? Lots of cheap, complete megasquirt clones available, for example RusEFI. Secondly, Who's going to "tune" your LH for free?
I have frequented the google tool a few times.....of course I know how to google!! The problem is I donít want a clone board made by someone on their dining room table, Iíd rather have the LH which was manufactured by Bosch or a more reliable standalone EMS from someone in t he UK who is then willing to tune it, not many MS tuners nearby for me. I know Iíll be paying someone for the LH tune but it will always be cheaper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JW240 View Post
I used to be very pro-LH.. and it is a usable system. But its not free to mod either. If you can make chips yourself you can go far, but you need to live with some drawbacks that will be inevitable no matter what you try.

Make a decision. What is your goal.
Basic FT swap/+T with stock-ish Volvo turbo's is easy to manage with LH.
Want to go much further? Really think about it, you'll easily pass the cost/benefit against LH, it just makes sense to go for a good EMS.
I think in the long run Iíll be moving over to stand-alone EMS but for now I will run LH and get a set of TLAO chips to get her going.

Rough idea of spec:

19T turbo on 90+ manifold
Big chinaBay intercooler
IPD cam and adjustable cam gear
Wasted spark conversion
Siemens DEKA 630cc injectors
3Ē turbo back exhaust
3Ē MAF housing with standard 016 internals

Engine is stripped at the moment so will receive all new gaskets and anything else that needs replacing. Possibly going of maxSpeeding rods as well just in case I feel like pushing past 300hp.
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