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Old 05-15-2007, 01:57 AM   #51
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Old 05-15-2007, 02:21 AM   #52
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My 30k mile "swap" was 3k.
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Old 05-15-2007, 07:09 AM   #53
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no way man, do you know how diesels work?
They make power power by shoveling the most amount of air into the same spot. They have no throttle plate, its all controlled by how much fuel you thrown in, and then how much boost it makes.

So it can still keep the stock fueling, and when needed, throw more air in (bigger turbo or more boost) when it needs

if anything it will be more efficient
I know how a diesel engine works, I'm also training to be a qualified diesel mechanic, and I've been around VW diesels since I was born, more power = more fuel used = fuel economy slightly worse, at least for me, mainly because diesels in stock form need to be thrashed and use a lot of a throttle to get em moving and keep em moving, in non turbo versions and Turbocharged Direct Injection models don't almost any throttle once moving as long as you keep it above 1900rpm which is the peak torque, with hard launches and such the economy goes down, and when I have my own TDi Golf, I'll get ok economy, but not miserly as I'd be flooring it feeling the massive torque pulling me along.

And to keep the upgraded turbo at peak power for best economy, you would need more fuel then with a smaller turbo to supplement the extra air going in at any given engine speed.

Are you keeping the electronic fuel pump that comes with the TDi motor or have you gone backwards to a mechanical fuel pump?

It's a great project, but I don't see the point in wanting it to make so much hp when it's the torque that matters with a diesel anyway.
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Old 05-15-2007, 11:17 AM   #54
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I know how a diesel engine works, I'm also training to be a qualified diesel mechanic, and I've been around VW diesels since I was born, more power = more fuel used = fuel economy slightly worse, at least for me, mainly because diesels in stock form need to be thrashed and use a lot of a throttle to get em moving and keep em moving, in non turbo versions and Turbocharged Direct Injection models don't almost any throttle once moving as long as you keep it above 1900rpm which is the peak torque, with hard launches and such the economy goes down, and when I have my own TDi Golf, I'll get ok economy, but not miserly as I'd be flooring it feeling the massive torque pulling me along.

And to keep the upgraded turbo at peak power for best economy, you would need more fuel then with a smaller turbo to supplement the extra air going in at any given engine speed.

Are you keeping the electronic fuel pump that comes with the TDi motor or have you gone backwards to a mechanical fuel pump?

It's a great project, but I don't see the point in wanting it to make so much hp when it's the torque that matters with a diesel anyway.

Im keeping the electric pump. Obviously how you drive it has a LOT to do with what kind of mileage you get. While the turbo im using is quite a bit bigger than stock, it is a VNT vs the stock ko3 waste gate turbo. Spool difference will be nelagable. I will obviously beat on the car if it has mods, it will get worse mileage than the b230 being driven like a grandma but im sure it will kick the **** out of the mileage of a factory turbo volvo (makes a bit less than HP than I will be making) which gets the same amount of beating. The fact of the matter is, my setup in not new or rare in TDI land. There are plenty of 200hp TDIs that make 200whp and can still get 40~50 mpg on a long road trip. Also, I realise that diesels are all about torque, that 200whp comes with 300-350+ ftlb. The VW guys tune the torqe out because their transmissions suck. I will not be taking this precaution as my trans does not suck nearly as much. So if I have a peak torque of 350ftlb at 1900 rpm, i dont imagine it will need much beating to get moving.
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Old 05-15-2007, 02:46 PM   #55
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Old 05-15-2007, 03:21 PM   #56
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I don't see the point in wanting it to make so much hp when it's the torque that matters with a diesel anyway.
Power = torque * rotational_speed

That's a definition.

If you triple the torque available at 2500RPM (yes please!) you're tripling the power available at 2500RPM.

Most spark ignition engines get power by extending the torque production into higher RPMs. That's the Honda approach. That's not a diesel approach. The diesel approach to power is to make even more torque at modest RPMs.

tim
with 135 hp and 250 lb-f, nothin' but stock. Needs more RWD.
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Old 05-15-2007, 03:50 PM   #57
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That's because the diesel burns only so fast, and if you rev higher it just gets dumped into the exhaust before it gets fully burnt. And that's just a waste of energy there.

*ponders a Touaouaouaouaureg V10 TDi swap*
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Old 05-15-2007, 03:55 PM   #58
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Awesome swap!

It's been said that "people buy horsepower and drive torque". I say tis true!
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Old 05-15-2007, 04:15 PM   #59
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Where in San Diego are you?
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Old 05-15-2007, 05:31 PM   #60
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I live in east county, im working on it at my shop in north county.
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Old 05-15-2007, 05:36 PM   #61
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was that just for the engine?

do you have an estimated cost at completion for the whole swap (engine, trans, parts)?

That was engine, ecu, turbo (ended up being blown), complete wiring harness, all sensors, electronic gas pedal etc. I dont even want to think about how much this is costing. I sold my fully built 2.4L 4g63 just to buy a 90hp diesel engine. Oh well, I get bored once projects are finished and have to move on to the next. After I finished putting the b16 in my mini, the dsm just wasnt fun anymore. Its really hard to estamate the costs, I do so much fab myself I save a lot of money. Its the small **** that adds up, I think I spend 1k in the last week of the mini build just on small ****.
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Old 05-15-2007, 06:28 PM   #62
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Josh. I love it!!!

I've been telling shane that I want to drop a vw tdi into a 242 for the last three months.
I've been playing with the idea of putting a tdi into my quantum syncro vw and trying to keep it still all wheel drive. That will be much more difficult.

man I can't believe how much bigger the red block is. It's very nice seeing the pics. You didn't have to cut anything at all.

I'd love move details. Want to make a copy of your custom adaptor plate for me?
How about getting paid to do a full conversion?

Let us know how it actually drives with the weight of the 245 chassis.

-kitty
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Old 05-15-2007, 06:34 PM   #63
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Josh. I love it!!!

I've been telling shane that I want to drop a vw tdi into a 242 for the last three months.
I've been playing with the idea of putting a tdi into my quantum syncro vw and trying to keep it still all wheel drive. That will be much more difficult.

man I can't believe how much bigger the red block is. It's very nice seeing the pics. You didn't have to cut anything at all.

I'd love move details. Want to make a copy of your custom adaptor plate for me?
How about getting paid to do a full conversion?

Let us know how it actually drives with the weight of the 245 chassis.

-kitty
I am geared up to make more adapter plates. You could use a acme adapter plate but they are a bit pricy imho. As for the weight of a 245, I figure that it will actully weigh less than a jetta tdi. Modern cars are crazy heavy. If it can lug a fully loaded westy van around, a 245 will be no problem. I would definately be down to do a full conversion. Maybe i will offer a kit with mounts and whatnot.
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Old 05-20-2007, 03:05 PM   #64
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I would very much like to know where you bought flanges for the 1.9l head's intake and exhaust.

Also, how much do you think you would charge for an adapter plate and what toyotas did that transmission come out of?

I stopped driving my 244+t when I bought my 03 TDI golf, I absolutely love the engine and economy. The VW's aren't nearly as bad as people make them out to be when the engine runs on diesel and not petrol. Wouldn't touch a petrol VW with a 10ft pole.

I'd also be interested in dropping this engine into a late model 960/v90 wagon as an extremely utilitarian vehicle.

Are you keeping A/C? How about power steering? Just hook up the hoses? More details on your swap would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 05-20-2007, 06:18 PM   #65
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Some 'interesting' diesel knowledge here...

Surely diesels don't rev like petrols because of the weight of the bottom end components - hence why trucks with huuuuuge pistons don't really rev.

Also, I think you'll find that diesel engines do need more fuel to make more power safely...and that almost any significantly tuned diesel engine will have had the pump played with to achieve that.

I'd love to do a D5 swap, but they're not cheap...and EMS would be a problem. Is there an "MS for diesels"? It's a whiteblock bolt pattern, y'know...

cheers

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Old 05-20-2007, 08:17 PM   #66
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I was interested in this swap back when you were considering it.
I was also interested in putting this 4g63 I have laying in the back of my car trailer in the 240. I like the tdi idea better. Keep up posted, I look forward to hearing more about this car.

Nice work.
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Old 05-20-2007, 09:45 PM   #67
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Surely diesels don't rev like petrols because of the weight of the bottom end components - hence why trucks with huuuuuge pistons don't really rev.

Also, I think you'll find that diesel engines do need more fuel to make more power safely...and that almost any significantly tuned diesel engine will have had the pump played with to achieve that.
No, it really is because the fuel burns slower. Rev any higher and you start dumping unburnt fuel into the exhaust and losing power.

And sure, a tweaked diesel will use more fuel while it is actually making more power, but if you drive it 'normally' it won't use any more fuel. Since the diesel almost always has too much air in the combustion charge (except at full power, they can run a little rich then) the power is determined solely by the amount of fuel injected. So at lower power settings, it still takes the same amount of fuel.
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Old 05-20-2007, 10:15 PM   #68
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Crikey, my post was a bit 'internet tough guy', wasn't it? Having looked into it, it seems I'm quite wrong...although I suspect inertia comes into it when it comes to the truck engine thing. However from what I've just read, it seems diesels are expected to rev like an S2000 in due course, as advances in fuel delivery are made...so perhaps the problems are not insummountable? To top it off, I bet I've spelled that incorrectly...

In terms of fuel economy when taking it easy...isn't the same true of a petrol engine, under the same circumstances? As long as you keep it out of boost, a B230FT with an MBC isn't going to use any more fuel than without. I doubt very much that a heavily tweaked diesel will literally be just as efficient when driven gently - for a start you're almost bound to make it less efficient at lower engine speeds.

cheers

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Old 05-21-2007, 02:07 AM   #69
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Surely diesels don't rev like petrols because of the weight of the bottom end components - hence why trucks with huuuuuge pistons don't really rev.
Actually, it has more to do with the stroke than the bore. EDIT - On trucks that is.
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Old 05-21-2007, 05:26 PM   #70
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Actually, it has more to do with the stroke than the bore. EDIT - On trucks that is.
And a they can get away with a long stroke because they arnt expected to rev because of the speed that the fuel burns. Its an endless cycle.
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Old 05-21-2007, 05:56 PM   #71
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Old 05-21-2007, 06:36 PM   #72
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hmm looks to be space for a v10 tdi in there....
My bank account is the issue with that, not the engine bay.
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Old 05-21-2007, 07:17 PM   #73
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You are my hero.

Keep us posted.

-E
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Old 05-21-2007, 07:27 PM   #74
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*ponders a Touaouaouaouaureg V10 TDi swap*
tooooaaaarrrreggggg?

toaaaaaarreggg?

tuuuuurrrregg?

too.....

i give up its just another goddamn volkswagen.
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Old 05-22-2007, 03:11 AM   #75
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.although I suspect inertia comes into it when it comes to the truck engine thing. However from what I've just read, it seems diesels are expected to rev like an S2000 in due course, as advances in fuel delivery are made...so perhaps the problems are not insummountable? ...

In terms of fuel economy when taking it easy...isn't the same true of a petrol engine, under the same circumstances? As long as you keep it out of boost, a B230FT with an MBC isn't going to use any more fuel than without. I doubt very much that a heavily tweaked diesel will literally be just as efficient when driven gently - for a start you're almost bound to make it less efficient at lower engine speeds.
Diesels respond differently to boost. They dont have to overfuel to produce or survive more boost.If you add boost wthout extra fuel it reduces smoke and EGT, both good things.
Running 18;1 ~ 22:1 CR, and 2-3 BAR manifold pressure, they are inherintly much more efficient than a gasoline engine.
Many TDI drivers with chip, injectors and exhaust upgrades report improved MPG, especialy if using criuse control.
You also have to go pretty wild with mods before sacrificing any low end power.Not having to rev way up to make power, Diesels don't take as much of an economy hit for driving under load. A recent day had me fill the back of a new Dodge Quad cab 4x4 level with firewood. Then the 10' x 6' trailer was filled 4' deep with more oak. Terrain was mountainous, and it was such a load the truck struggled was all wobbly, and turned on its 'danger to tranny' light. According to the computer, this brought our economy down from 18.5 MPG to 12. Not bad hauling 9K uphill. A well tuned Gas truck of similar capability would drop from 13 to 6ish.
The next day we went back for another load. We used an older 12 valve truck wth mods, and it kicked the new 24 valve's butt wth no sign of difficulty, or even working hard.
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