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Old 12-05-2017, 04:08 PM   #26
2manyturbos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
Well I'm sure there's never an error in anything Haynes, Volvo or above all Bentley published...Even if they differ..Everybody is all right all the time.

But wouldn't you think they the guys who make the pistons and list all that detailed data might possibly know what they are making? Look at all the dimensions and detail..carefully typed cause I don't see the point of photographing the page..

If everybody is always right how are these guys wrong?
Like I said, I never verified the compression ratio. What I did do was remove the head from the 83 B23F and take a look because someone wanted a "High compression" 83 B23F. The pistons were definitely different from the 84 B23F engine I had at the same time. I bought a guy's collection of Volvos and related parts. It came with 3 83-84 245s, 3 B23Fs, 3 M46s and about a 1,000 spare parts. It took me 3 trips with my F100 just to move it all.

Going by a piston manufacturer's published information is sketchy as well. That particular engine was "supposedly" only produced for a short time. People that have been into Volvos 2-3 times as long as you have seem to know about it. Some of those people I'm referring to were Volvo mechanics that spent their entire careers working on the cars.

So, using your published piston specs, all Volvo had to do was put the B23"A" pistons in the engine and low and behold, have a high compression B23F. Hmmmm. Imagine that. Volvo says they made that engine. The parts exist to make that engine right from the very parts they had on hand where they assembled their engines.
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Old 12-05-2017, 05:09 PM   #27
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Yeah, books are elitist anyway...right right, I should have believed guys who swap parts all the time for a lifetime.
Mechanics always know every dimension in any motor they lay a wrench to...the have to.
How could a guy slam in pads if he didn't know the dish depth on every engine?

So again you're right...

The question is should you straighten out those arrogant German bastards about their lousy book?
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Old 12-05-2017, 05:10 PM   #28
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My machinist tells me to hold off on the decking, that it could be a bad idea for reasons he will explain in depth once he cleans and mags it all.
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Old 12-05-2017, 05:19 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
Yeah, books are elitist anyway...right right, I should have believed guys who swap parts all the time for a lifetime.
Mechanics always know every dimension in any motor they lay a wrench to...the have to.
How could a guy slam in pads if he didn't know the dish depth on every engine?

So again you're right...

The question is should you straighten out those arrogant German bastards about their lousy book?
What are you going to say when a picture of said pistons is posted? These folks I mentioned don't just turn wrenches. One of them has won several awards from Volvo for their expertise. Unlike you, he knows his Volvos inside and out. The fact you are not aware of the B23F high compression engine is all telling.

And what do you do? Building an engine is nothing more than swapping parts out.
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Old 12-05-2017, 05:28 PM   #30
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1983 B23F piston, stolen from the local FB page:

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Old 12-05-2017, 05:36 PM   #31
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Yep, mine looks just like that.

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Originally Posted by culberro View Post
1983 B23F piston, stolen from the local FB page:

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Old 12-05-2017, 05:39 PM   #32
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Huh, according to JohnV, that doesn't exist. You guys must be mistaken.

Looks just like the pistons in the 1983 B23F "high compression" engine I opened up. It must be a conspiracy.
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Old 12-05-2017, 05:49 PM   #33
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The 83/84 B23F and FT's are my favorite motors.

Generally 83's have the higher compression flat top pistons. Sometime in late 83 they switched to a shallow dish for the manual trans cars.
This is USUALLY pretty reliable, but I have seen odd ball motors so it is not accurate 100% of the time. Only way to really tell is to see if the pistons are flat or dished.

I've had 50+ of these specific motors apart.

This is only applicable to the US spec B23F in 240's.
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Old 12-05-2017, 05:54 PM   #34
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The only time we had piston-to-valve interference was on startup with a K (maybe a D?) with the stock roll pin, stock pistons, and some cut off the head, maybe around 2mm. Startup is the point of greatest valvetrain load and as long as you've got a good belt tensioner on it and it's correctly adjusted, you should be fine. That said, **** happens. If the belt breaks, the cam stops, and it doesn't matter what the correct piston-to-valve clearance at TDC is or whatever (see my Redblock cam valve event sticky for more info on that, nerds).

What I believe John V to be saying (please correct me if I'm wrong) is to believe half of what you see and none of what you hear. A lot of speculation gets regurgitated here, and I've done what I could to provide hard data to dispel some of that based on my limited means. The factory Volvo cams are, in fact, just that: factory cams with a bunch of compromises built in. They need to have some kind of idle quality, emissions compatibility, fuel economy, be easy on the valvetrain for 500k, etc, THEN add "performance". If you want REAL performance, he's right, you have to go away from the factory stuff. I tried that route but I wanted to keep the LH2.4 in my n/a application, it didn't work. In fact, it really sucked. I don't blame the cam, it just didn't work for my application.

The VX cam, well, I wouldn't spend any kind of money on it. Personally, I don't think it out performs the factory stuff to make it worth the $125 or so more than you'd have to spend for an A, B, and maybe even D or K you can get here if you're patient. If you've got it, run it.

Your butt dyno results may differ.
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Old 12-05-2017, 06:29 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyturbos View Post
Huh, according to JohnV, that doesn't exist. You guys must be mistaken.

Looks just like the pistons in the 1983 B23F "high compression" engine I opened up. It must be a conspiracy.
:r ofl:

I said everybody is right.
Your reading skills=: rofl::ro fl::rofl :

Or considering your unflappable self confidence:oop s:

I even said its so confidence inspiring that tru expert knowledge far and above what is in elitist books is available here for free every day..How many times do I have to say it?

You want a freakin kewpie doll?

(and I've had a couple of flattop B23s too that I bought as cores for builds..But being the ignorant f**k that I am I paid zero f**ks as to whatever the letter after the B23 was..
Oddly one had a forged crank and the there was cast.. Tru Story, brah)

The main point----shocking that nobody seized on it--is that those numbers tell you on paper where the piston is going to end up at TDC since we all know the stroke and rod length and block deck height like (snap)...

Why didn't anybody warn the Oh Pea to look at the numbers?
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Old 12-05-2017, 06:29 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyturbos View Post
Huh, according to JohnV, that doesn't exist. You guys must be mistaken.

Looks just like the pistons in the 1983 B23F "high compression" engine I opened up. It must be a conspiracy.

John NEVER wrote about this piston not existing.

"Motor B23E, 2315ccm
95-103 kW (129-140 PS)
10/10,3:1 K-Jetronic Einspritzung
Fahrzug 240, 244, 740
August 1979-Mai 84

the data says 96mm cylinder diameter 46,4 compression height Flat top 26 x 72 pin"

The piston inside a used engine is for 100% the correct one? Ha! Did you ever open a NOS engine? I don't believe in used blocks. The owners told me every time: "100% original", and why the same type of engines where euqipped with different pistons etc ?
You guys, while proclaiming about John, forgot one important part of the engines totally:
The very very different combustion chamber at the Volvo B200/B23*/B21* heads.
If you think the CR is only done by the pistons, think again
In Europe we got cr ratios for the above N/A engines.

B230FB 9,3:1
B230F 9,8:1
B200F 10,0:1
B230KH 10,5:1 NO FREE RUNNER
B230K 10,3:1 7 serie
B230K 10,5:1 2 serie
B230A 10,3:1

with different heads.

the best cam from the factory I did used is the VX-3, never test it on a dyno. every "stock" cam sucks .




New adress for Kolbenschmidt, now Rheinmetall
MS Motorservice Deutschland GmbH
Rudolf-Diesel-Straße 9
71732 Tamm
Deutschland

Tel.: +49 7141 8661-0
Fax: +49 7141 8661-400

good luck with bashing, Kay
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Old 12-05-2017, 06:35 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
(and I've had a couple of flattop B23s too that I bought as cores for builds..But being the ignorant f**k that I am I paid zero f**ks as to whatever the letter after the B23 was..
Oddly one had a forged crank and the there was cast.. Tru Story, brah)
Could the one with the forged crank have been a B23FT short block?
Even if it was a B23F, it wouldn't surprise me. It really seemed like old Sven was grabbing almost anything he wanted out of the parts bins.
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Old 12-05-2017, 06:39 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mocambique-amazone View Post
You guys, while proclaiming about John, forgot one important part of the engines totally:
The very very different combustion chamber at the Volvo B200/B23*/B21* heads.
If you think the CR is only done by the pistons, think again
In Europe we got cr ratios for the above N/A engines.

B230FB 9,3:1
B230F 9,8:1
B200F 10,0:1
B230KH 10,5:1 NO FREE RUNNER
B230K 10,3:1 7 serie
B230K 10,5:1 2 serie
B230A 10,3:1

with different heads.
Over here we didn't get all of those fancy heads and different pistons. So that's kind of a non factor for our US based motors.
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Old 12-05-2017, 06:41 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shoestring View Post

What I believe John V to be saying (please correct me if I'm wrong) is to believe half of what you see and none of what you hear. .
Oh no everybody is right..They just believe in alternate facts, alt-facts..But everybody is always right...

In a former life, back when I foolishly thought numbers mean something I would have said then "Believe nothing whachoo read--unless you know for certain who is talking and what they do for a living and have proof of the effectiveness of what they DO, and "measure about 3-4 times--go and re-check the mike on the standard, drink some tea and measure a couple of more times, cut once."

But Shirley I would never say that now..
We are all equal now..A hole in the wall shop mechanic sling pads and rotors and fixing heater control knobs 99% of the time opinion on building motors is exactly equal to anybody here...because its all just an opinion and we are ll equal..

I liked your cam chart--just missing the "valve lift at TDC" which I have always found helpful to show people not to worry and for checking cam timing on the "fun" cams that I prefer..
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Old 12-05-2017, 06:45 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mocambique-amazone View Post
John NEVER wrote about this piston not existing.

"Motor B23E, 2315ccm
95-103 kW (129-140 PS)
10/10,3:1 K-Jetronic Einspritzung
Fahrzug 240, 244, 740
August 1979-Mai 84

the data says 96mm cylinder diameter 46,4 compression height Flat top 26 x 72 pin"

The piston inside a used engine is for 100% the correct one? Ha! Did you ever open a NOS engine? I don't believe in used blocks. The owners told me every time: "100% original", and why the same type of engines where euqipped with different pistons etc ?
You guys, while proclaiming about John, forgot one important part of the engines totally:
The very very different combustion chamber at the Volvo B200/B23*/B21* heads.
If you think the CR is only done by the pistons, think again
In Europe we got cr ratios for the above N/A engines.

B230FB 9,3:1
B230F 9,8:1
B200F 10,0:1
B230KH 10,5:1 NO FREE RUNNER
B230K 10,3:1 7 serie
B230K 10,5:1 2 serie
B230A 10,3:1

with different heads.

the best cam from the factory I did used is the VX-3, never test it on a dyno. every "stock" cam sucks .




New adress for Kolbenschmidt, now Rheinmetall
MS Motorservice Deutschland GmbH
Rudolf-Diesel-Straße 9
71732 Tamm
Deutschland

Tel.: +49 7141 8661-0
Fax: +49 7141 8661-400

good luck with bashing, Kay
Of course we know that? Try reading before posting. John clearly said the 1983 B23F high compression engine is nothing more than a myth. Whereas, countless B23 F's with flat top pistons have been found in 1983 B23F high compression 240s that even show up in Volvo literature as such. No amount of backpedaling by John V is going to get him off the hook on his arrogant comments. Nice try.
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Old 12-05-2017, 06:49 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
While I concede that you know all, I personally am confused..I have right here in my little hands the 1990 edition of KS Master Piston catalog and it lists everything imaginable for the pistons they make>>

On page 617 it says:
Motor B23A, 2316ccm
77kW (104,5 PS) 10,3:1
mit vergaser
Fahrzeug 244,
Oktober 1981-Mai 85

Data shows cylinder bore 96mm.......46,4 Comp hgt -3,1 x bowl, 24 x 72 pin 1,75 top ring; 2mmm second ring and 4mm oil ring

on page 618 it says:
Motor B23 A, 2316ccm 82,5/84kW (112/114 PS)
10,3:1; mit vergaser
Fahrzeug 240, 244, 245,760
Oktober 1981-mai 84

Motor B23E, 2315ccm
95-103 kW (129-140 PS)
10/10,3:1 K-Jetronic Einspritzung
Fahrzug 240, 244, 740
August 1979-Mai 84

the data says 96mm cylinder diameter 46,4 compression height Flat top 26 x 72 pin

Block 3 on page 618 shows USA-ausführung
Motor B23F 2316ccm
90kW )122,5 PS= 9,5:1;
K-Jetronic Einspritzung
Fahrzug 240 GLE, 760 GLE,
bis Mai 1984

Data shows 96mm cylinder bore 46,4 and -2,1 deep, rings and pin as before

Now I've only been here what 11 or so years, and yes I have read about 7390 times about 10,5 B23s so it must be right what I read here...

So if TB is, as always, right the question becomes how did the alternate OEM supplier
get stuff so wrong?

It might be a good idea if TB collectively drafted a letter to
Kolbenschmidt AG
Postfach 13
D-7107 Neckarsulm
or called + 0 7132/33-0

And straightened those dumb Krauts out.
Right here in case you missed it the first time. Quoted so he can't change it again.
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Old 12-05-2017, 06:53 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mocambique-amazone View Post
John NEVER wrote about this piston not existing.

"Motor B23E, 2315ccm
95-103 kW (129-140 PS)
10/10,3:1 K-Jetronic Einspritzung
Fahrzug 240, 244, 740
August 1979-Mai 84

the data says 96mm cylinder diameter 46,4 compression height Flat top 26 x 72 pin"

The piston inside a used engine is for 100% the correct one? Ha! Did you ever open a NOS engine? I don't believe in used blocks. The owners told me every time: "100% original", and why the same type of engines where euqipped with different pistons etc ?
You guys, while proclaiming about John, forgot one important part of the engines totally:
The very very different combustion chamber at the Volvo B200/B23*/B21* heads.
If you think the CR is only done by the pistons, think again
In Europe we got cr ratios for the above N/A engines.

B230FB 9,3:1
B230F 9,8:1
B200F 10,0:1
B230KH 10,5:1 NO FREE RUNNER
B230K 10,3:1 7 serie
B230K 10,5:1 2 serie
B230A 10,3:1

with different heads.

the best cam from the factory I did used is the VX-3, never test it on a dyno. every "stock" cam sucks .




New adress for Kolbenschmidt, now Rheinmetall
MS Motorservice Deutschland GmbH
Rudolf-Diesel-Straße 9
71732 Tamm
Deutschland

Tel.: +49 7141 8661-0
Fax: +49 7141 8661-400

good luck with bashing, Kay
7132 Tamm? Rheinmetall!!!??? those guys??? Yikes!

But I keep saying books are elitist.. And I have my book right here!
This is Merikuh and we have the right to believe anything we want.
That's how we are Making Merica Grape Again.

Which makes no sense but I believe it anyway.

Isn't arguing about what might have or might not have come in some stock boring POS thing 30 or even 40 years ago the path to spiritual enlightenment?
I've missed so much meaning and knowledge by merely looking at every motor as a core (what's that in the local dialekt? stomme?) for rebuilding since I BELIEVE all those things from 30 or 40 years ago are long worn out.
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Old 12-05-2017, 06:55 PM   #43
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^^ Good information BTW. We should turn your specs into a sticky somewhere that we can access.
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Old 12-05-2017, 08:31 PM   #44
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My B23F has flat tops with a letter stamped into them. Probably "D".
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Old 12-05-2017, 08:36 PM   #45
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Valve lift at TDC is at the bottom of each page. Tried to think of everything I had ever seen relative to this stuff.

Also, documentation on anything anybody made back in the day is very very sketchy as best. You can use it until you find from experience or alternate documentation that it's contradicted, and don't be surprised when you do. To hold it as gospel is folly.

Last edited by shoestring; 12-05-2017 at 08:43 PM..
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Old 12-06-2017, 01:42 AM   #46
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It is my understanding that for 83 the higher compression engine was provided for both auto and manual transmission cars, for 84 only the automatics got the higher compression engines.

10.3 and 9.5 were the numbers iirc.
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Old 12-06-2017, 06:56 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Redwood Chair View Post
It is my understanding that for 83 the higher compression engine was provided for both auto and manual transmission cars, for 84 only the automatics got the higher compression engines.

10.3 and 9.5 were the numbers iirc.
Yep.

My DD 83 B23F (M46 car) has flat top pistons. They are marked C/D/C/D. I didn't lay a straight edge across the top of the block last time I did the HG, but it certainly looked zero deck.

I have a core short block from an 84 that is a B23 and was also an M46 car. It has dishes on the piston tops.

Your experience may vary.
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Old 12-12-2017, 03:33 AM   #48
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I asked for thoughts on a deliberately mild engine build and got a flame war over piston dish. Mild! 140 crank horsepower! I'll go bitchcakes and build a violent high comp high flow NA B20 when I get a stainless cam gear and tungsten carbide woodruff key or some ****. I'm saving the megasquirt and electric water pump and phenolic goddamn dildos for my 122. At this point I just want suggestions for timing my apparently wimpy VX cam - straight up, advance, retard? No I'm not getting a K cam please don't suggest that. The VX is said to make 136 hp and lb/ft stock, another four or five should be easy to achieve with basic machine work. I want to get the most out of this mild cam and stock everything while preserving reliability etc. I make $11 an hour while going to school, I only want to have a little fun with my daily since it broke a piston ring while half the county was in flames in October. I know my 240 is a money pit but I'm not concerned. I'm OK with comparatively low return on investment, I want what I want and I'm trying to avoid scope creep.

Last edited by smncutler; 12-12-2017 at 04:08 AM..
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Old 12-12-2017, 06:33 AM   #49
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B23F CR from the factory greenbooks:

1983:

499802: 10.3:1
499803: 10.3:1
499890: 9.5:1

1984:

499846: 9.5:1
499847: 10.3:1
499944: 9.5:1
499945: 10.3:1

Even last digit signifies manual. Odd signifies automatic. The 499890 engine was introduced mid-1983. So, not all 1983 manual transmission cars have flat-top pistons from the factory. By then, Volvo had switched from the white cap Chrysler distributor and Chrysler coil to orange cap Bosch distributor and Bosch coil. They actually did that a little earlier on, since you could get the 499802 engine with one. When the new engine came out, they also provided a ignition box with a more aggressive timing curve, the 1346105 box.

The 1984 499846 and 499847 engines are the same as the 499890 and 499803, except for the updated hall switch with the flat 3-pin connector attached directly to it, instead of the Chrysler round plug attached to a short harness. Sometime around mid-March 1984, the 499944 and 499945 engines came out. 3-wire O2 sensors, different headpipes with heat shields, and the preheat tube attached directly to the manifold with the "elephant trunk" stove. 1984 engines also switched to the 510 LH-Jet ECU that had the ability to control the preheat feature of the 3-wire sensor. The 1983 503 ECU may not have the ability to control the preheat coil. 1984 B23F engine wiring harnesses and the replacement harnesses all have the extra harness plug for the preheat coil. So, it is possible to convert any B23F to a 499944 or 499945 engine by replacing the oxygen sensor, and, if necessary, the LH-Jet ECU, as well as the distributor. I've updated a 499846 engine in an '84 245GL and a 499847 engine in another '84 245GL to the later specs. Didn't bother with the preheat tube stuff, though. Seattle weather usually doesn't get cold enough to need it.

Re: cam timing, try running it straight up. Had one in the 499846 engine that was timed straight up and it was decently powerful, granted, with 3.31 gears, even a K or H cam is going to feel a bit slow. If you like it, great. If not, then either go back to the 4 degrees advanced, or try retarding it a little. Ran a K cam in a B230F in an '85 245DL for a while. It felt stronger, but not as strong as the B23E in my old '81 242 did. Part of that was the dished pistons, the Chrysler ignition setup, etc., and part was gearing. Ignition timing with the K cam in the B230 was set to 8 deg BTDC. Otherwise, even with 92 octane, it'd ping. Some people have switched to breakerless ignition with LH 2.0. Another option would be to run the EZK102K box from an '84 760 Turbo with Bosch distributor and coil. Probably would integrate better with the LH 2.0 system than EZK117K from an LH 2.2 740GLE would.

-J
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Old 12-12-2017, 08:05 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smncutler View Post
I asked for thoughts on a deliberately mild engine build and got a flame war over piston dish. Mild! 140 crank horsepower! I'll go bitchcakes and build a violent high comp high flow NA B20 when I get a stainless cam gear and tungsten carbide woodruff key or some ****. I'm saving the megasquirt and electric water pump and phenolic goddamn dildos for my 122. At this point I just want suggestions for timing my apparently wimpy VX cam - straight up, advance, retard? No I'm not getting a K cam please don't suggest that. The VX is said to make 136 hp and lb/ft stock, another four or five should be easy to achieve with basic machine work. I want to get the most out of this mild cam and stock everything while preserving reliability etc. I make $11 an hour while going to school, I only want to have a little fun with my daily since it broke a piston ring while half the county was in flames in October. I know my 240 is a money pit but I'm not concerned. I'm OK with comparatively low return on investment, I want what I want and I'm trying to avoid scope creep.
Go bitchcakes?

Is that like crabcakes with a little more spice?

I had the VX cam in my GT. Granted it was a b21 with Idontgiveafawk compression ratio, but no matter how I timed it, there was ZERO appreciable difference......... Maybe I need to calibrate my buttdyno.... dunno.

You're over thinking this. Time it straight up and drive the damn thing...

On a side note, I have also torn apart an '83 b23, had flat tops and a forged crank.
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