home register FAQ memberlist calendar

Go Back   Turbobricks Forums > Mechanical > performance & modifications

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-07-2014, 07:39 PM   #1
irish44j
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Default 200-series (wagon?) for stage rally - learn me

I grew up riding in the back of early 240-series wagons (my parents had quite the affinity for them), and am thinking about picking up a 240 (either coupe or wagon, possibly the latter) to start a stage-rally build. I currently rallycross a BMW 318i (not stock at all) and that's an obvious choice for Group 2 rally, but I kind of want to do something different rather than another bmw (I also drive an e30 325 in Chumpcar, so I do a lot of work on e30s, and also have an e21 project car I'm trying to get rid of at the moment).

So what I already know:
1. I know the 240s are heavily rallied in Europe/Sweden. So while I appreciate photos of 240 rally cars, you don't need to go to the trouble
2. Don't much need advice on rally itself - I've rallycrossed for several years and know a ton of rally drivers. So really I'm just looking for thoughts on car choice within the 200-series Volvo.
3. I'm pretty capable working on cars. Engine swaps, wiring, suspension, etc. Other than big-time fabrication, I can handle most car modding/restoration jobs. I daily-drive a 2009 WRX so have *some* turbo knowledge, but it's one area where I'll be needing to learn a lot more for a volvo eventually

So all that out of the way, lol....

First, I know....a 242 is the most ideal platform for a variety of reasons. That said, I have a sentimental need to build a wagon. Since very few old cars can dominate Group 2 anyhow these days, I want to do something different from what others are doing.

So feel free to tell me why the wagon is a bad idea, apart from the obvious weight penalty in the rear of the car. Does it use any different suspension stuff from the sedan/coupes or do suspension parts, etc pretty much cross over between all models?

Then down to some other things:

1. I tend to gravitate toward earlier models of older cars - both for the more vintage looks and because they tend to be lighter and easier to strip for race use. In terms of the chassis, is there any reason to stay away from early models and go for a later model?

2. I won't ask much about engines because I know the acclaimed red block to some extent, and I know well enough to stay away from the V6 in the 260-series. As to transmissions: most 240s on craigslist are obviously automatics. I don't assume a swap is terribly involved (transmission, driveshaft, pedal box, M/C, etc), correct? I've heard that the way to go is a later 5 speed (vice the early 4-speed with O/D). Will a later transmission bolt up to an early engine, for instance?

3. IIRC the rear axle is a Dana 30, so I assume there are many types of LSDs available (probably via the Jeep scene). That said, early vs. late cars are there axle changes (in terms of strength, etc) that I should worry about?

4. Any other thoughts are welcome. I don't plan to build a world-beater Ken Block rally car here. I want something to have some fun in that will finish events in a respectable position (assuming I drive it well), and something I can wrench on that's different from an e30. So any thoughts about early vs. late cars, suspension, engines, whatever.....

So What Would Turbobricks Do? (and yeah, I'll be spending endless hours reading old threads and such so this thread is mostly just to point me in the right direction for the initial purchase.

And in case anyone cares, here's my e30



irish44j is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 07:56 PM   #2
autoxgalant72
Board Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sh!tsburg, KS
Default

www.rallyanarchy.com
__________________
'91 244 B230F+Ti
'01 Galant V6 5spd- track slut
'01 Dodge, parts hauler.
autoxgalant72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 08:15 PM   #3
irish44j
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by autoxgalant72 View Post
yeah, I've lurked on there for years (as well as specialstage and other rally sites). I'm really looking for some volvo 200-series-specific information (as noted) from a volvo-specific group of people (TB) before I get into the full rally build part.

Starting with the best original platform is my goal here..
irish44j is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 08:40 PM   #4
JimWilling
Board Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Portland, OR
Default

You mentioned transmissions for the car, and as I understand it, the Volvo faux-five speeds and proper five speeds don't make good performance units due to a third gear fragility issue. In that third gear likes to **** itself under abuse. Some friends of mine have a Lemons car sitting with that exact issue at the moment. The automatics were quite stout, however, and if you wanna run a turbo, you lose less boost shifting with a modified auto. so consider that.

Can't say much else.
JimWilling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 08:53 PM   #5
irish44j
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Default

interesting thought. I don't know if I could bring myself to own an automatic car of any kind (my tow rig excepted, lol), but you do bring up a valid point for sure. Thanks.
irish44j is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 09:00 PM   #6
culberro
Ronald Culberbone III
 
culberro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Default

The wagon is a cool idea, but it doesn't add any practicality to a rally car (well besides hauling everything in it). Skip the 242 and go for a 244, or a 245 if you must. The weight difference is a 100-150 pounds if I remember correctly. There are way more of them so you can patch body panels easier, the rear door access is nice to have (helmets, repairs, added gear behind the seats, etc).

The Dana 30 is alright for NA use. It will get you on stage. The g80 locker is a terrible idea, and there are no good LSDs for under $1500. Spartan locker, welded, or open are the best choices using the 1030/1031 rear axles. Torsen diffs can be used, but they go open as soon as a wheel is lifted off the ground (this happens a lot in rally btw).
The earlier Volvo 1030 axles will take dana 30 jeep parts. I'm pretty sure the later 1031 will not take standard dana 30 gears.

Other ootions for diffs are the earlier toyota pickup axles with 8in ring gear, or a shortened explorer 8.8. Both can be had with a clutch type lsd, and are comparable is strength and weight. They will require new brackets and a lot of fab. Not just some zap zap.....

Stock suspension will work fine. I highly recommend stiffer springs and at least some bilstein HDs up front or JVABs. The rear we have been rocking autozone shocks and MOOG cc217 springs. Shot for 225 or 250 lb/in springs up front and 150 to 175 out back. The moogs are 155 lb/in.

The m46 trans sucks, but it does work for racing. It just has HUGE gaps in a few critical gears and a useless 1st and OD. A t5 is much much better.
culberro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 09:32 PM   #7
irish44j
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by culberro View Post
The wagon is a cool idea, but it doesn't add any practicality to a rally car (well besides hauling everything in it). Skip the 242 and go for a 244, or a 245 if you must. The weight difference is a 100-150 pounds if I remember correctly. There are way more of them so you can patch body panels easier, the rear door access is nice to have (helmets, repairs, added gear behind the seats, etc).

The Dana 30 is alright for NA use. It will get you on stage. The g80 locker is a terrible idea, and there are no good LSDs for under $1500. Spartan locker, welded, or open are the best choices using the 1030/1031 rear axles. Torsen diffs can be used, but they go open as soon as a wheel is lifted off the ground (this happens a lot in rally btw).
The earlier Volvo 1030 axles will take dana 30 jeep parts. I'm pretty sure the later 1031 will not take standard dana 30 gears.

Other ootions for diffs are the earlier toyota pickup axles with 8in ring gear, or a shortened explorer 8.8. Both can be had with a clutch type lsd, and are comparable is strength and weight. They will require new brackets and a lot of fab. Not just some zap zap.....

Stock suspension will work fine. I highly recommend stiffer springs and at least some bilstein HDs up front or JVABs. The rear we have been rocking autozone shocks and MOOG cc217 springs. Shot for 225 or 250 lb/in springs up front and 150 to 175 out back. The moogs are 155 lb/in.

The m46 trans sucks, but it does work for racing. It just has HUGE gaps in a few critical gears and a useless 1st and OD. A t5 is much much better.
thanks for the thoughts. Is the powerlock for Dana 30 no longer available? That was a clutch-type IIRC (thinking back to my jeep days long ago).

Spring rates sound pretty close to what is about to go on my e30 (which also has Bilstein HDs), though sounds like you run a bit softer than I do in the back (which is odd, since the e30 318 rear end is VERY light).

As to the wagon....yeah, understand that there is no real reason for it (though hauling extra gear is always nice), kind of just something I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of performance for just to do it because I love racing wagons (yes, not logical at all, I admit). I could just build another e30 for the "easy button" to being fast in RWD rally, but been there, done that, need something new and different. Good point about 4 doors either way - my e30 is also a 4-door and it's certainly more convenient than a coupe.
irish44j is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 11:24 PM   #8
242Fast
Board Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: SC
Default

What are the rules on what you can modify/swap to stay in the class you're targeting?
__________________

83' 242
242Fast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 11:30 PM   #9
John V, outside agitator
Board Member
 
John V, outside agitator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sleezattle, WA, USA
Default

Wagons as ironic statements are for hipsters...
Competition is supposedly about results---even if in the end it's about attaining enlightenment.

If something brings you closer to the goal be it results or enlightenment--it is good.
If something is a personal whim and serves no purpose then it is not taking you closer to the goal.

I'm kinda sick and dingy from medication and this all has been gone over to the point it is beating a dead horse but:
Dana 30s LSDs broke in street use,
the cross-shafts broke where the 2 Lincoln log together....I've encountered --and been given 3 out of street cars here. All three broken and the entire insides was like a pile of gravel..everything chewed to fawk.
Conclusion: forget about Dana 30 Power-lock or whatever they called them..

Time has marched on since a lot the Received Dogma was distributed by Moses when he cam down off of the Mountain.


If you read those commandments carefully you'll notice they don't say "Thous shall not rally Wagons"

Because that goes without saying...that's why they didn't say it!

Motor: 2 of the 3 sactioning bodies in North America allow Noobs to use turbocharged cars---although they say "we try to talk sense to them"....the third, RallyAmerica aka Wawwy Amewica pervesely forbid noobs from turbos, but leave it so that you could buy ANY normal aspirated motor up to some huge size, mod the ever-lovin fawk out of it, and because it is NOT turbo, you cannot harm anybody...

I like Volvo turbos because with a few extremely easy mods---the RIGHT turbine housing and a boring ol' T cam, you have all the Powerz you'll need for quite a while and a powerband that really works good on North American roads and with the RIGHT Borg Warner T5.
And conveniently enough an ideal ratio can be found for both the sensible axles to use: Dana 30 or the Toyota 8"....which 5-6 guys are using since I started pushing it and making parts to stick it in.
Forget the Ford 8.8
The diffs for that thing are still weak old 2 pinion designs, while the Toyota OPEN and LSD are superior 4 pinion designs...

Remember that progress I mentioned...there is much better suspension available that anybody here but a few have ever seen...More travel, 50mm inverted vs the typical inverted 40mm you see for Volvos (eith Bilstein or DeCarbon), detachable struts (like most modern cars--rather than the tube welded into the lower forging meaning you have a lot of work to change a duff insert)

Now, a reassuringly high % of rally Volvos are realising that the 240 is basically a scaled up version of the coolest car in the know Galaxy: Group 4 Escort MkII....the little Ford that beat EVERYTHING in the world for more than a decade---including any car out of the ol Bundesrepublik!
And they have realsied if they just build the 240 more or less just like a Group 4 Escort, they have a very VERY good car for our blindingly, scarily, insanely fast stages..

To that end almost all the recent builds--almost---have gone to adding shock towers in the rear, and moved the shock to the rear part of the axle, ditched the 35 year old spring pans/links and gone to nice minty fresh 28" long links upper and lower from the Circle Track world..
You DON'T HAVE TO...

But those who have done it rave about how nice having a full 9.4" travel, how well the car hooks up AND handles any bumps and landings..And so it makes sense to seriously study the advantages of the towers and long links early on--cause it sure as hell is easier befor the cage goes in.

Again. A smart person should have solid reasons for spending effort, and doing mods...

If there's no advantage--just some whim. think again..Its insanely expensive with extortionate entry fees so budget sensibly..

Now if you wanted to play wawwy-closs or grass-o-cross or whatever silly name they want to call it, sure do the wagon....
But for rally its just making more work for nothing.


Where you at?

(and do you really think you'll get sensible advice here regarding rally?)

And an E30 BMW is not the "easy way" to build a fast 2wd car..
Compression, camshaft, gearbox ratios that help keep the engine on the boil and short gearing so the car is quick from 25 to 90mph, and really quick from 40mph to about 75mph. The manual trans BMW puts in all their cars over the years is really THE OPPOSITE of what is needed for being quick in the 25-90 range, they are made for being FAST like top speed cruise..
And there is no simple or cheap solutions for that..so a Volvo will be the better car on stages if you make a small amount of effort.
__________________
John Vanlandingham/JVAB Imports
Sleezattle WA, USA

--> CALL (206) 431-9696<----

www.rallyrace.net/jvab

www.rallyanarchy.com

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

"When a man tells you that he got rich through hard work, ask him: 'Whose?'"
— Don Marquis
John V, outside agitator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 01:27 AM   #10
megulon-7
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: No Pants Island
Default

Ok here is the straight dope.

As the Man says: go for it.

A 240 wagon will rally just as well as a sedan, the only question is if you can handle all the awesome.

Well, can you?
megulon-7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 08:19 PM   #11
lookforjoe
Board Member
 
lookforjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Rockland County, NY
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by megulon-7 View Post
Ok here is the straight dope.
A 240 wagon will rally just as well as a sedan, the only question is if you can handle all the awesome.
Really??? Talking from experience or out the A$$??

I think John pretty much covered every angle, I presume you jumped right in without reading his post ....
__________________

My XR July2013 - 446AWHP @ 8K rpm
lookforjoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 08:32 PM   #12
John V, outside agitator
Board Member
 
John V, outside agitator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sleezattle, WA, USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lookforjoe View Post
Really??? Talking from experience or out the A$$??

I think John pretty much covered every angle, I presume you jumped right in without reading his post ....

Really?

Yeah he's talking from first hand experience..15-20 rallies in a very nice orange 240.
And Al did it the smart way: first engine a billion mile 87 B230 with a K cam, some cheesy headers and LH2.2, stock box, 4.1 axle, 92 ABS calipers for the one bleed and a welded diff.
And suspension. JVAB inverted 50mm Bilsteins front, 9.4" travel custom valved coilovers mounted at the end of the axle...
Did 4-5 events that way then in the summer break, pulled the head, milled "about 1.5mm" cause I told him "about 1.5 to 1.6 if you're in a good mood that day"
stuck in a Ford T5 with the desirable 2.95 first gear, a 4.88 final drive and did a bunch of events like that...

Now it is getting a nicer motor: a nice B230 with JVAB 160mm rods, 8.0 compression and a nice Ford Cosworth turbo, a JVAB steel flywheel, and a Toyota 4-runner 8" rear axle for that nice big margin of safety when want in a car when the entries are over $500,

So yeah he's speaking from experience and he is right. A guy could use a wagon...
There's no point to, there is no advantages to, but people get on weird trips at the drop of a hat every day...weird things like painting the bitchin ally wheels black so they can't be seen (Brilliant!), and ruining cars by lowering them and using springs 3 or 4 times more than their inserts and dampers are valved for, and nobody blinks an eye.

So as always "Like. What evar"
John V, outside agitator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 10:23 PM   #13
megulon-7
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: No Pants Island
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lookforjoe View Post
Really??? Talking from experience or out the A$$??

I think John pretty much covered every angle, I presume you jumped right in without reading his post ....

The only "talking out the a$$" I do is farting, and I save that for church and elevators.
megulon-7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 10:41 PM   #14
culberro
Ronald Culberbone III
 
culberro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Default

The wagon is about 150lbs more. If you want to rally a wagon, go for it.

The downside is that it will SUCK to replace the rear quarters when you have an off and smack something.

But do it, because it will piss John off to no end
culberro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 11:04 PM   #15
Hotdoggin
Board Member
 
Hotdoggin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Default

Wagon hipster 4 lyfe
__________________
1978 245DL - B21 Penta carb powered!
1982 244T - Crushed
1983 245DL - SOLD
1984 244DL - Crushed
1984 245DL - Sitting in someone's yard
1991 740SE - girlfriend's car
2008 S60 2.5T - Money drainer
Hotdoggin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 11:15 PM   #16
John V, outside agitator
Board Member
 
John V, outside agitator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sleezattle, WA, USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by megulon-7 View Post
The only "talking out the a$$" I do is farting, and I save that for church and elevators.
John V, outside agitator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 11:16 PM   #17
John V, outside agitator
Board Member
 
John V, outside agitator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sleezattle, WA, USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by culberro View Post
The wagon is about 150lbs more. If you want to rally a wagon, go for it.

The downside is that it will SUCK to replace the rear quarters when you have an off and smack something.

But do it, because it will piss John off to no end
Stupidity for no reason doesn't piss me off, not with the amount I've seen people do for no good reason.
Sorry.
John V, outside agitator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 12:02 AM   #18
lookforjoe
Board Member
 
lookforjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Rockland County, NY
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by megulon-7 View Post
The only "talking out the a$$" I do is farting, and I save that for church and elevators.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
Really?

Yeah he's talking from first hand experience..15-20 rallies in a very nice orange 240.
So as always "Like. What evar"
So, this would be where I "eat my hat" as the old expression goes...
lookforjoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 12:26 AM   #19
John V, outside agitator
Board Member
 
John V, outside agitator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sleezattle, WA, USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lookforjoe View Post
So, this would be where I "eat my hat" as the old expression goes...
Njäääää. That OK Al is one of the coolest and senisible guys I know---that‘s why I like co-driving wif him, you just din't get the banter---and that's a good segue for this!
John V, outside agitator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 12:48 AM   #20
autoxgalant72
Board Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sh!tsburg, KS
Default

I would see repairs as the #1 reason to not do the Wagon. I like them a lot but it doesn't change the fact that it makes for more parts to repair when the off happens. Granted, I don't have any experience on stage rally, however I have been racing on road courses long enough to know that offs will happen, so plan for it.
autoxgalant72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 12:59 AM   #21
Redwood Chair
K-jet For Life
 
Redwood Chair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: SF CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by autoxgalant72 View Post
I would see repairs as the #1 reason to not do the Wagon. I like them a lot but it doesn't change the fact that it makes for more parts to repair when the off happens. Granted, I don't have any experience on stage rally, however I have been racing on road courses long enough to know that offs will happen, so plan for it.


A shell's a shell, twist it up and you're going to have to bend it back and or swap panels.

The wagons have an extra 100 lbs right in the wrong place waaaaaaaaay up and wayyyyyyyyyy out behind the rear axle, so they'll never handle as well as a sedan.
__________________
Raise The Lowered


Image hosted by servimg.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by hiperfauto View Post
Folks on here don't know a good deal when they see it.
how psi a stock can support?

Redwood Chair is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 01:12 AM   #22
turbotankshane
Board Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redwood Chair View Post


A shell's a shell, twist it up and you're going to have to bend it back and or swap panels.

The wagons have an extra 100 lbs right in the wrong place waaaaaaaaay up and wayyyyyyyyyy out behind the rear axle, so they'll never handle as well as a sedan.
Serious question:
what if you chop the roof over the cargo area and build a rally volcamino? At least to help with the weight slung out over the rear axle..

The beer brings the silly questions out at night
turbotankshane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 01:13 AM   #23
Redwood Chair
K-jet For Life
 
Redwood Chair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: SF CA
Default

Save money on the half A cage?

Redwood Chair is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 01:32 AM   #24
megulon-7
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: No Pants Island
Default

I dont see how the wagon will be more trouble replacing a quarter? What are these extra parts that are on a wagon?

And as for the extra weight, that folding rear seat you tear out will ditch a some, then get a 91-93 tail hatch (the only aluminum panel that ever came on a 240), do the 5 rear windows in plastic, and you should be ahead of the game.

There are WRX wagon rallycars out there, they seem to work fine.
megulon-7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2014, 01:39 AM   #25
Redwood Chair
K-jet For Life
 
Redwood Chair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: SF CA
Default

The later tailgate is steel with a different skin to fit the flush glass.

There's still a bunch of metal in the wrong place wagging the dog.
Redwood Chair is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:18 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.