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Old 11-21-2017, 07:06 PM   #76
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Back to the original topic, there is actually a compelling technical argument to use two properly-sized small parallel (twin) turbochargers vs. a twin-scroll equipped single turbo that flows the same. I was a skeptic as well but once it was explained to me, I was open to the possibility. The small parallel twins can theoretically perform the same job with less compromise on the exhaust side vs. the single twin-scroll. I'd like to test it back to back someday. This is assuming the turbines are properly matched to the flow from half of the engine, and exhaust pairing is 1-4 and 2-3 on a conventional inline 4-cyl. I probably can't go into too much more detail on a public forum, but it has to do with where you are operating on the turbine map in both situations.

As a side note, the OP's proposal of a small parallel twin setup relates to transient response. The goal would be to approach NA levels of throttle response and time-to-torque.

Others brought up a series turbo system, with large turbo feeding a smaller one (on the compressor side; turbine side is opposite). The main reason to do this is if you can't find or make a single-stage compressor that can achieve the target pressure ratio. In other words, it only makes sense for ultra high boost applications, where you want very high specific power (hp/L). Totally different problem statement and end goal.
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Old 11-21-2017, 07:37 PM   #77
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Back to the original topic, there is actually a compelling technical argument to use two properly-sized small parallel (twin) turbochargers vs. a twin-scroll equipped single turbo that flows the same. I was a skeptic as well but once it was explained to me, I was open to the possibility. The small parallel twins can theoretically perform the same job with less compromise on the exhaust side vs. the single twin-scroll. I'd like to test it back to back someday. This is assuming the turbines are properly matched to the flow from half of the engine, and exhaust pairing is 1-4 and 2-3 on a conventional inline 4-cyl. I probably can't go into too much more detail on a public forum, but it has to do with where you are operating on the turbine map in both situations.
I completely agree with this!!!

And this brings us back to BMW and the N54's. If anyone hasn't driven an E92 335i, do it!!! I believe they've accomplished this. When I drove it, I did so with DTC off, healthy applications of throttle, and honestly can't remember any lag from a dig! Instead, it was more than happy to spin it's tires and shake it's hips!

Honestly, I thought my old 244 +T with a 13c turbine (TDO4H. NOT HL!!) / 15G compressor, Derek Dawes MBC, and M cam was the king of spool, but N54's just plain stomp.

Of course, those tiny turbines are going to run out of steam pretty quick, and every tester that talks about it online talks about their lack of top end, but as a street car and canyon carver, that makes for an easy car to drive fast and/or be a hooligan in.
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Old 11-21-2017, 08:06 PM   #78
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That sounds pretty cool, I'd like to see some side by side data.... but I can totally see how it could be better, at least as far as better exhaust flow, but I'm not a rocket surgeon, so the compressor side seems like it could be really easily hit or miss. Time to hit the books.
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Old 11-21-2017, 11:39 PM   #79
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Cool.
While you do are out-cooling each other, tell him it was watching ALL the fail from Japanese twin turbo cars, which he should know are indeed outside of TBOT...

And yeah bazillion rpm cars with a 1500 rpm wide poereband with 6-7 speed paddle shifted half automatic sequential boxes IS REALLY exactly the thing we look to to see what we need for a street car in Turdboatpricks..

Right on the subject.

Congratulations..

But whatabout Renaults V6 F1 engine back in the day?
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Old 11-21-2017, 11:44 PM   #80
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in this thread. People that own. VOLVO 2/7/9 series cars debate whether their performance idea is better than other.

You guys... who even cares? Everything has been swapped into these cars. Why? Because bored. Why do any of you (save for the like... 3 of us that are properly restoring stuff (not me btw)) give a crap about a TT setup?

What's better? 2JZ? 302? LSx? C'mon... this has just gotten dumb now.
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Old 11-21-2017, 11:46 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by EivlEvo View Post
in this thread. People that own. VOLVO 2/7/9 series cars debate whether their performance idea is better than other.

You guys... who even cares? Everything has been swapped into these cars. Why? Because bored. Why do any of you (save for the like... 3 of us that are properly restoring stuff (not me btw)) give a crap about a TT setup?

What's better? 2JZ? 302? LSx? C'mon... this has just gotten dumb now.
4 turbos..Anything less is not enough..
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Old 11-21-2017, 11:50 PM   #82
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But whatabout Renaults V6 F1 engine back in the day?
These were cool.

But these were cooler:

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Old 11-22-2017, 08:08 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
And yeah bazillion rpm cars with a 1500 rpm wide poereband with 6-7 speed paddle shifted half automatic sequential boxes IS REALLY exactly the thing we look to to see what we need for a street car in Turdboatpricks..
Yeah.... Keep building those straw men dude. The fire should keep your ego warm.

If you're about to tell me that these three cars (Ferrari F40, GTR Nismo GT3, Audi R10 TDI) have narrow power bands, you're still talking out your a55.

And of course, out of convenience and need, you ignored what's been said about the N54, TT'ing an M112 (E320 engine) with 15g's, and even my mention of my older quick spooling setup.

Why is it pertinent? Because as Evil said... people swap things around here.

So as your boy VG said, can we move on?

Last edited by BDKR; 11-22-2017 at 09:25 AM..
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Old 11-22-2017, 02:58 PM   #84
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If done properly the intent of a twin-turbo (parallel) system on an inline 4 should be to broaden the powerband, not narrow it. I was talking about two completely divided systems with two cylinders each feeding their own turbine. I'm not saying it's easy to match the correct turbo(s) to attain this, but a broad NA-like powerband with instant response should be the goal.

The Japanese systems JohnV mentions are all parallel-sequential systems with esoteric valves and controls to block flow to one turbine during low load & low engine speeds. Not really an apples-to-apples comparison.

Also, performance of radial turbines and compressors has come so far in the past 25 years. Compared to what's on the market today, early '90s turbo systems were stone age stuff.
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Old 11-22-2017, 03:10 PM   #85
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Yeah.... Keep building those straw men dude. The fire should keep your ego warm.

If you're about to tell me that these three cars (Ferrari F40, GTR Nismo GT3, Audi R10 TDI) have narrow power bands, you're still talking out your a55.

And of course, out of convenience and need, you ignored what's been said about the N54, TT'ing an M112 (E320 engine) with 15g's, and even my mention of my older quick spooling setup.

Why is it pertinent? Because as Evil said... people swap things around here.

So as your boy VG said, can we move on?
Quit fapping about these stupid cars you fap over..Talk about ego
Can't you get real for just amoment.

Where the **** are you?
TURBOBRICKS for fawks sake..
People DREAM about swapping stuff and one in 100 or 200 do..

All the stupid Italian cars in the world mean in the context of TB nothing..

If somebody is asking, then they can't do it..
Get thee to Off Topics with your dreamy fixation on roadrace or exotica based reality.

This is performance, not Fatasy Fappening.

Or show us just how and why references to F1, LeMans, and exotics V or flat multicylinder sh1t is a good model for some dufus cause we're all dufuses here.

Step by step, part number by part number, and give us dimensions of what will work, too.

Well?
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Old 11-22-2017, 05:41 PM   #86
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The BMW M1 Coupe is a perfect example of a low cost street car running twin low mass turbochargers. They have very impressive power bands. A friend of mine runs one in B-Street with our Autocross club. That car has instant acceleration, excellent braking and handling. There are plenty of examples of twin turbo street cars if you just pull your head out of the past and take a look at what is going on all around you. Another club member runs a twin turbo LS1 1999 Corvette. The thing is making 600+ HP and accelerates like a sling shot. It is incredible to watch it make a run. If there is any lag at all, it is hard to tell. I have a video of it somewhere on my Youtube account. Exotic, no. Just a cheap Corvette with a very nicely done turbo system that makes it seem like an exotic. It quite often sets fast time of day.
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Old 11-23-2017, 08:34 AM   #87
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Where the **** are you?
TURBOBRICKS for fawks sake .... cause we're all dufuses here.
Keepin' it real ha? You think that lowly of us? Misery loves company and you want all of us to have
the same antiquated view that you do?

Perhaps you should move on then.

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All the stupid Italian cars in the world mean in the context of TB nothing..
I'm pretty sure I only mentioned one Italian car in all of this. The rest were German.
Since I know you're not that ignorant, you clearly must be just plain pissed or something.

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Or show us just how and why references to F1, LeMans, and exotics V or flat multicylinder sh1t is a good model for some dufus cause we're all dufuses here.
  • There's nothing wrong with being a dufus. The problem is in staying a dufus. Someone asking means they don't want to remain a dufus. Why does it seem like that's a problem too you?
  • That's where most new thinking is tesed. Example: Nissan (Japan! Not Italy. ) Delta Wing.
  • It's where current ideas are continuously evolved and stress tested.

Does everything that comes from racing ultimately translate to street cars? Definitely not! A great example is F1 when they disallowed turbos and we found ourselves in the era of stupid high revving V12's and V10's. Now while it did result in an understanding of how to make pistons survive at those speeds (and it was a considerable issue at the time), that was pointless since an engine that idled at 6k and redlined at 20k was never going to be practical in a grocery getter.

CONVERSELY, there are the Audi's ( Germay! Not Italy. ) that raced in the states in SCCA Trans AM and IMSA GTO. Nothing exotic about them. Nothing was exotic about turbo charging a 5 cylinder and 4 WD as concepts in '88 and '89. They just applied them differently and took it all road racing. AND KICKED A55!!!

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Step by step, part number by part number, and give us dimensions of what will work, too.

Well?
In other words, you should never involve yourself in a conversation about doing something custom. If there's not a manual and you can't buy all the parts off some shelf, it shouldn't be done. This is precisely the kind of attitude that keeps people stuck where they are. No longer able or willing to re-arrange or use existing concepts currently outside their comfort zone.

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There are plenty of examples of twin turbo street cars if you just pull your head out of the past and take a look at what is going on all around you.
Exactly! I don't fully agree with a TT setup for a 4 because of space and packaging (I hate how densely packaged BMW's tend to be), but there is no doubt that the concept would work even on a B230.
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Old 11-24-2017, 03:34 PM   #88
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Compound turbos generally feed the other way. A small turbo upstream would choke the larger one. Ideally you want a large turbo running at a relatively low pressure to move a high volume of air into a smaller unit which is used for higher pressure. For example, If you're running a large turbo (high vol, low press) at 10psig then it is responsible for the work of increasing your intake pressure to 24.7psia. Then you might set the smaller turbo (lower vol, higher press) to operate at pressure ratio 2, therefore running the smaller turbo in its area of peak efficiency and achieving 49.4psia (34.7psig) while splitting the work nicely between the two. Compare that to trying to push 34.7 pounds of boost from a single turbo. In most cases running a single at 34 while maintaining a reasonable powerband would be well outside it's peak efficiency and you would generate a lot of excess heat.

But how many people are really trying to run a 35psi redblock anyway?
Not many can grasp the concept of a compound setup, works well on diseasels when massive boost levels are required.
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Old 11-24-2017, 04:08 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by BDKR View Post
Discursive construction that suggest John Thomas insecurity
Last time OP posted: 11-13-2017, 08:59 PM


If it's so good of a concept, where are all the twin turbos redblock?
Where is yours?
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Old 11-25-2017, 09:09 AM   #90
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If it's so good of a concept, where are all the twin turbos redblock?
Where is yours?
You're still failing! The very last thing I said was..

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDKR View Post
I don't fully agree with a TT setup for a 4 because of space and packaging (I hate how densely packaged BMW's tend to be), but there is no doubt that the concept would work even on a B230.
It's kind of hard to read with you eyes closed.



Oh, and BTW...

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Old 11-25-2017, 10:40 AM   #91
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You're still failing! The very last thing I said was..

So why go 12 round defending tooth and nail a concept that does not apply in the situation described (the one at the origin of this thread).

Let me guess :


Last edited by Vincent Gagnon; 11-25-2017 at 10:51 AM..
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Old 11-25-2017, 12:06 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by BDKR View Post
Keepin' it real ha? You think that lowly of us? Misery loves company and you want all of us to have
the same antiquated view that you do?

Perhaps you should move on then.



I'm pretty sure I only mentioned one Italian car in all of this. The rest were German.
Since I know you're not that ignorant, you clearly must be just plain pissed or something.


  • There's nothing wrong with being a dufus. The problem is in staying a dufus. Someone asking means they don't want to remain a dufus. Why does it seem like that's a problem too you?
  • That's where most new thinking is tesed. Example: Nissan (Japan! Not Italy. ) Delta Wing.
  • It's where current ideas are continuously evolved and stress tested.

Does everything that comes from racing ultimately translate to street cars? Definitely not! A great example is F1 when they disallowed turbos and we found ourselves in the era of stupid high revving V12's and V10's. Now while it did result in an understanding of how to make pistons survive at those speeds (and it was a considerable issue at the time), that was pointless since an engine that idled at 6k and redlined at 20k was never going to be practical in a grocery getter.

CONVERSELY, there are the Audi's ( Germay! Not Italy. ) that raced in the states in SCCA Trans AM and IMSA GTO. Nothing exotic about them. Nothing was exotic about turbo charging a 5 cylinder and 4 WD as concepts in '88 and '89. They just applied them differently and took it all road racing. AND KICKED A55!!!



In other words, you should never involve yourself in a conversation about doing something custom. If there's not a manual and you can't buy all the parts off some shelf, it shouldn't be done. This is precisely the kind of attitude that keeps people stuck where they are. No longer able or willing to re-arrange or use existing concepts currently outside their comfort zone.



Exactly! I don't fully agree with a TT setup for a 4 because of space and packaging (I hate how densely packaged BMW's tend to be), but there is no doubt that the concept would work even on a B230.

For years I thought you were a reasonable and thoughtful person...and that IS a rare thing in the parts.
But then whewn I read bull****, keyboard warrior **** like this:
"In other words, you should never involve yourself in a conversation about doing something custom. If there's not a manual and you can't buy all the parts off some shelf, it shouldn't be done. This is precisely the kind of attitude that keeps people stuck where they are. No longer able or willing to re-arrange or use existing concepts currently outside their comfort zone. "

I see you are not interested in actually advancing knowledge or reasoning abilities or judgement on cost benefit ratios of ideas but in scoring "debate points"..

Because I never suggested the ONE thing OR another.

But you've been so vehement on this as a viable, sensible thing..it seems that you must have thought of how to DO---not f8cking type about it, how --what parts might you choose..some idea..some idea of dimensions..

And all you have is words--insults..Not a single goddamn hint of a part, a plan.

Just words
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Old 11-25-2017, 12:36 PM   #93
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Restore it to stock.
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Old 11-25-2017, 04:25 PM   #94
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This is just a discussion forum. The whole thing is just words. Bench racing is fine and can lead down interesting trains of thought if it can happen in a civil manner. We're not all looking for fully developed concepts with dimensioned & toleranced prints when clicking on a thread.

It would be really great if different concepts could be discussed without it always turning into some pissing match about who knows more or whose idea is more relevant to the real world or whose e-Johnson is heavier.

Do we need mods to come in and police this type of stuff more?
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Old 11-25-2017, 04:27 PM   #95
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This is just a discussion forum. The whole thing is just words. Bench racing is fine and can lead down interesting trains of thought if it can happen in a civil manner. We're not all looking for fully developed concepts with dimensioned & toleranced prints when clicking on a thread.

It would be really great if different concepts could be discussed without it always turning into some pissing match about who knows more or whose idea is more relevant to the real world or whose e-Johnson is heavier.

Do we need mods to come in and police this type of stuff more?
No actually we need an engine with lower compression than a B230F as a starting point for high boost, twin turbos or not.
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Old 11-25-2017, 04:38 PM   #96
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No actually we need an engine with lower compression than a B230F as a starting point for high boost, twin turbos or not.
A parallel twin setup (like the OP was asking about) should be used for reducing lag & improving transient response. Can be done at low boost levels to make a very snappy streetable setup. Should be fine to try on a stock B230F.

Series turbos (aka compound) are used when ultra high boost is needed. For sure a stock B230F would not be a great starting point for that.
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Old 11-25-2017, 04:46 PM   #97
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This is just a discussion forum. The whole thing is just words. Bench racing is fine and can lead down interesting trains of thought if it can happen in a civil manner. We're not all looking for fully developed concepts with dimensioned & toleranced prints when clicking on a thread.

It would be really great if different concepts could be discussed without it always turning into some pissing match about who knows more or whose idea is more relevant to the real world or whose e-Johnson is heavier.

Do we need mods to come in and police this type of stuff more?
Well said. And yes, we do need to police these threads more. JV and Vincent need to listen more, type less. This is a discussion forum, not their own personal sand box. The "nay sayers" need to step aside and let the motivated experiment. That's how new developments take form.
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Old 11-25-2017, 05:04 PM   #98
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Well said. And yes, we do need to police these threads more. JV and Vincent need to listen more, type less. This is a discussion forum, not their own personal sand box. The "nay sayers" need to step aside and let the motivated experiment. That's how new developments take form.
And there's a difference between pointing out technical difficulties and nay saying ...
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Old 11-25-2017, 05:09 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by 2manyturbos View Post
Well said. And yes, we do need to police these threads more. JV and Vincent need to listen more, type less. This is a discussion forum, not their own personal sand box. The "nay sayers" need to step aside and let the motivated experiment. That's how new developments take form.
12-13 years here Moderator and you've seen the same brilliant idea come up again and again and again..And nobody has done anything but jaw and fap.

Your biases are well known and plain and obvious..You call dreaming and theorizing "experimenting"? Same guys blah blahing about exotic things with V or flat (two bank) long ass things "is how development" take "form"?

Its off topic idle chat just like the same subject was the time before and the time before and the time before..

Let's see some metal welded, ON A INLINE 4..let's see ONE step toward something then it might be discssion and learning instead of dreaming about twin turbo V12s
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Old 11-25-2017, 05:14 PM   #100
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And there's a difference between pointing out technical difficulties and nay saying ...
Or more to the point asking what the proponents of this BS have concluding is the point and what they ARE DOING.... and nay saying..

That moderator, being who he is has shown many time that he cannot distinguish between asking a question--which he always regards as 'an ad-hominy attack---and nay saying...
Normal ways of discourse baffle him..
Normal people when puzzled ask questions..
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