home register FAQ memberlist calendar

Go Back   Turbobricks Forums > Mechanical > performance & modifications

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-05-2017, 09:15 PM   #1
ogamer777
Board Member
 
ogamer777's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: PNW
Default 84 242 full suspension refresh

I am looking to refresh the entire suspension of my 242 since it is long overdue.
I want to get all new parts, control arms, bushings, hardware, etc.

I need help with getting a full list together with what parts there are to replace, i also want to use spherical bushings wherever i can and poly where i cant use spherical bushings. I want the car to handle more aggressively, as i tend to drive it that way

I am planning to go with bilsteins all around, Kaplhenke torque rods, panhard, IPD sways. 15A strut reinforcement plates.
Thanks in advance.
__________________
84 242 DL M46 212k
81 264 GLE M46 105k
82 244 GLT (15G) M46 226k+

Feedback thread: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=322924

Looking for some hard to find Volvo accessories for my 82 GLT. Especially rubber trunk mats.

Stuff I have already:
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=331526
ogamer777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2017, 11:52 PM   #2
EivlEvo
Board Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Default

The better question is really how much do you want to spend and what are you trying to do?

If you're simply refreshing, then there's not a huge need to go with sphericals or new control arms and such. You won't get any benefit from a "new" control arm that you wouldn't from an old one.

Nevermind all the various strut/spring/swaybar options which will have a HUGE effect. Unless you're trying to add more geometrical adjustability...
EivlEvo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 12:27 AM   #3
ogamer777
Board Member
 
ogamer777's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: PNW
Default

Well ultimately the car will have a b230ft oil squirter block, so I want the ride to be able to sustain the power from that.

Regarding control arms, I know the car was hit in the front at one point, so I wanted to x off any chance that they're bent or mangled. The car will be lowered too, so adjustment is necessary.

As far as budget, none really. I probably will spread the buying out over a month or so and tackle the suspension stuff early next year. But I at least wanted to get a list going to see where I'd be at.

I have spherical torque rods on my 244Ti and I do like the responsiveness of them quite a bit. That car handles alright but I know with some new bushings and updating components it'd drive like a new car. Hence my want to upgrade the 242.
ogamer777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 01:07 AM   #4
LC4CARL
Aero challenged
 
LC4CARL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Portland, OR
Default

Depending on the severity of the collision, you may wish to have a body shop "set up and measure" the chassis with their laser measuring system to confirm that the unibody isn't tweaked.

Best suspension stuff I have done is IPD sport springs. Followed by turbo sway bars. But mine is very mild.
__________________
LC4CARL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 02:37 AM   #5
ogamer777
Board Member
 
ogamer777's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: PNW
Default

It doesn't seem like a huge hit but the fender and front lower support (directly adjacent to the driver side corner light) is slightly mangled. I don't think the chassis is tweaked. It still drives straight.
ogamer777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 03:35 AM   #6
greasegram
Board Member
 
greasegram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: kelowna, bc
Default

What do you mean by none budget?
__________________
8v death squad
greasegram is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 04:45 AM   #7
hessam69
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default

no budget, means money is no object
__________________
94 940
90 240
90 240
90 240 wagon
91 240 wagon
90 240 parts car (parts for sale)
90 240 parts car (parts for sale)
86 240 parts car (parts for sale)
84 240 parts car (parts for sale)
92 940 parts car (parts for sale)
91 940 parts car (parts for sale)
79 244
74 164E
hessam69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 06:34 AM   #8
ogamer777
Board Member
 
ogamer777's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: PNW
Default

Right, no cap on the cost of things.
ogamer777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 07:23 AM   #9
DET17
Reformed SAABaholic
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: NW Georgia
Default

If lowering, don't forget the Kaplhenke "quick steer" roll center correction. If stock height, then no need as the Volvo Engineers got it right.
__________________
Project "cheap thrills" build thread: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showth...67#post4211467

Feedback thread: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=198746
DET17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 11:17 AM   #10
EivlEvo
Board Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Default

What I meant by adjustment is do you have a need for uhh... lets call it "race car" level adjustments, or are you just trying to be able to drive the thing while it's lowered?

Those will draw a line in the sand before you start going with adjustable lower control arms and insane upper camber plates and such. If you aren't doing HDPE's all day with slicks... those aren't "necessary" and may in fact not even be nice!

Things you need to consider.

1. Springs.
Springs should be looked at as a RATE. Height is secondary. The reason the ant nest gets kicked over with the IPD springs is because they won't give anyone a spring rate. As such... for many suspension snobs, they'll get categorized merely as "lowering springs". If budget is no option, I would HIGHLY recommend going with coilovers. You will of course STILL need to select a spring rate, and pair it properly with...

2. Dampers.
Need to be paired with your springs in both travel, and rate.

3. Reinforcing upper strut tower plates. I ran these during an event with a loose front strut. My towers are completely fine. Would recommend.

4. Upper strut bearings.
Replace (pending what you're investing in for upper camber plates)

5. Ball joints.
Replace.

6. Front lower control arms
These can be replaced with stock (fine) and boxed (significantly stiffer "better" mostly for rally impacts tbh) or made full adjustable.

6a. There are 2 bushings here. I believe if using stock, you have no spherical option. So it's rubber or poly. This again depends on your driving style. Rubber will allow the transition from left to right to be smoother, but less connected. With rubber it is likely that your dynamic alignment will change more than with poly. With poly, you'll transfer tons of energy, but it can have adverse effects to the uninitiated. Most people would suggest poly on the front end. Doesn't make it right.

7. Tie rods inner and outer +boots
Inspect, replace. Keep old ones as spares if they're good. Or vice versa.

8. Front swaybar
Many options here. The KEY with swaybars is that you canNOT just stiffen and be "better" you need to BALANCE the front and the rear. Pure stiff in the front and you're understeering. Pure stiff in the rear and you're oversteering. 30k foot view. Use poly bushings for swaybar.

8a. Swaybar endlinks
Poly here also. You can also consider adjustable.

9. Upper GT braces
Get these?

10. Lower chassis braces
Get these?

11. Strut tower bar... only some work with gt braces.

That should take care of the front afaik.

I'll jump into the rear in a sec. Watson is yelling at me to do a thing.
EivlEvo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 11:51 AM   #11
EivlEvo
Board Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Default

For the rear you're looking at the same sort of strut/spring pairing issues. But you can modify the rear to have a coilover TYPE setup.

A lot of people are cautious about the stiffness in the rear to quell snap oversteer. I suspect that a lot of this comes from our antiquated suspension geometry back there, but also the fact that most people have been used to driving a soft plush Volvo.

Anyway...

1. Torque rods.
If you're lowering significantly, you'll need to get adjustable, and you'd want to go poly with this. You can also go spherical.

2. Panhard bar
Again, you'd likely want poly

3. Front trailing arm bushing.
Most people suggest staying rubber here. Up to you.

4. Rear trailing arm bushing
Rubber, Poly or spherical are all options for this one. Even in stock trim. There's a good debate about it in another thread just a few over.

5. Trailing arms in general can be boxed, or get a full "race type" setup. I haven't looked too deep into those, so someone else might need to address the story on that.

6. Rear swaybar should be balanced with the front.

7. You should also be considering fender rolling and MOST IMPORTANTLY TIRES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The rear is a cake walk aside from the rear trailing arm rear bushings.
EivlEvo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 11:54 AM   #12
EivlEvo
Board Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Default

I ran stock 87 244 sedan swaybars with bilstein touring and GT springs out front with overloads in the rear. Car was very very capable at speeds up to 80 on snow. When I say on snow I mean... messing around on snow. Good transitions, good control. Slight understeer that can be corrected with left foot braking. Solid.

I'm currently in a 93 245 with 25/25 sways and the same suspension setup but more poly. It transitions much quicker, and still has a tendency to push the front end a bit. I suspect I can address this via alignment change.
EivlEvo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 04:55 PM   #13
ogamer777
Board Member
 
ogamer777's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: PNW
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EivlEvo View Post
What I meant by adjustment is do you have a need for uhh... lets call it "race car" level adjustments, or are you just trying to be able to drive the thing while it's lowered?

Those will draw a line in the sand before you start going with adjustable lower control arms and insane upper camber plates and such. If you aren't doing HDPE's all day with slicks... those aren't "necessary" and may in fact not even be nice!

Things you need to consider.

1. Springs.
Springs should be looked at as a RATE. Height is secondary. The reason the ant nest gets kicked over with the IPD springs is because they won't give anyone a spring rate. As such... for many suspension snobs, they'll get categorized merely as "lowering springs". If budget is no option, I would HIGHLY recommend going with coilovers. You will of course STILL need to select a spring rate, and pair it properly with...

2. Dampers.
Need to be paired with your springs in both travel, and rate.

3. Reinforcing upper strut tower plates. I ran these during an event with a loose front strut. My towers are completely fine. Would recommend.

4. Upper strut bearings.
Replace (pending what you're investing in for upper camber plates)

5. Ball joints.
Replace.

6. Front lower control arms
These can be replaced with stock (fine) and boxed (significantly stiffer "better" mostly for rally impacts tbh) or made full adjustable.

6a. There are 2 bushings here. I believe if using stock, you have no spherical option. So it's rubber or poly. This again depends on your driving style. Rubber will allow the transition from left to right to be smoother, but less connected. With rubber it is likely that your dynamic alignment will change more than with poly. With poly, you'll transfer tons of energy, but it can have adverse effects to the uninitiated. Most people would suggest poly on the front end. Doesn't make it right.

7. Tie rods inner and outer +boots
Inspect, replace. Keep old ones as spares if they're good. Or vice versa.

8. Front swaybar
Many options here. The KEY with swaybars is that you canNOT just stiffen and be "better" you need to BALANCE the front and the rear. Pure stiff in the front and you're understeering. Pure stiff in the rear and you're oversteering. 30k foot view. Use poly bushings for swaybar.

8a. Swaybar endlinks
Poly here also. You can also consider adjustable.

9. Upper GT braces
Get these?

10. Lower chassis braces
Get these?

11. Strut tower bar... only some work with gt braces.

That should take care of the front afaik.

I'll jump into the rear in a sec. Watson is yelling at me to do a thing.

I think realistically the car would be more geared for mostly street use. That being said, i still do plan to play around with it quite a bit. And quite a strong possibility that it will see the track some day.

Front -

1. Spring rate/coilovers, what would be your recommendation on this? I think that i will go with coilovers as you suggested, they've been on my radar for a while anyway. I dont think i need to get the JRZ RSone coilovers. I think the "DIY" ones offered by Kaplhenke would suffice. But one thing that has always deterred me from buying them is my lack of knowledge with the custom made ones. I am not sure what spring rate, if i should go with the shortened strut housings, and if i do, what struts will fit properly? And for the rears, it looks like its just an adjustable spring perch with the shock still in its stock location. As far as height, i do want to lower it quite a bit. Will probably end up doing fender flares or having to cut the inner wall and reweld.

2. Quick steer roll correction, will this effect the ride height? I will end up getting these regardless but have to ask for consideration.

3. Strut mount reinforcement plates, just bought a pair of the ones 15A makes. These should do or should i look at the adjustable strut mounts from Kaplhenke? Or the offset spherical strut mounts?

4. strut bearings, if sticking with 15A plates, then replace, but if going Kaplhenke they are included correct?

5. Front control arms, i have little knowledge of the boxing of the arms, but i have heard of them being done. IIRC a member here provides that service? With that said, should i bother getting new ones or just reuse the ones on there already?

6. Bushings, I tend to like to feel as much of the car and road as i can, so will probably go with poly in the FLCAs.

7. Tie rods, if getting the quick steer roll corrections, will this effect the way they are installed?

8. Sway bars, will probably end up using IPDs 25/25, have em on my 244Ti and love em.

9. GT braces/chassis braces/strut brace, already got em installed.

Rear -

1. With the package on Kaplhenke, the rears come with spring perches, but for coil over setup what would be entailed as far as modding?

2. Panhard, i was considering spherical over the poly, what would the differences be on those?

3. Bushings, front will go with poly, rears probably spherical.

4. Trailing arms boxing, i will probably get them boxed as well as the fronts.

5. Sway bar, will be matched with the front with 25mm

6. Fenders, will likely do flares, if not, cutting the inner wall and reweld.

7. Tires, this i know all too well, currently running blizzak studless and i hate them so much.
ogamer777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 06:22 PM   #14
EivlEvo
Board Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Default

1. If you go coilovers, the spring rates are numerous. This is the benefit of coilovers... it's a standardized spring size and fitment. What rate you choose is up to you based on what you want. Getting the spring rates for the stock GT springs is probably a good starting point though. Heck if I can remember them.

2. Roll correction CORRECTS the geometry but doesn't raise or lower the car itself. It raises or lowers the roll center. This is a good write-up.
http://thecartech.com/subjects/auto_...oll_Center.htm

3. Those plates I'm unfamiliar with, but plates are plates. If you want MORE adjustment for camber and caster, you have to go with those other options. The stock setup doesn't leave much room for adjustment, but again... this depends on how much adjustment you NEED. For most people, running more than a 1.3 degrees on the street and they're whining about tire wear. It's all a balance.

4. Again, check. Not sure. Don't have them and have no need to shop them... so not well versed on the specifics.

5. If yours are straight, there's no need to change them. Yoshifab or Kaphlenke or a handful of others maybe offer pre-cut plates. But steel is steel. Buy some, weld it where you want it. This isn't worth doing unless you're on track though I'd say.

6. Poly vs rubber isn't strictly about feeling the road. It's about how the car transitions. Poly is ideal in some spots, sphericals are better in others, and rubber is perfect for some.

7. The tie rods would connect to the RCC kit if I'm not mistaken. It's different for different cars. On my Evo it's simply taller ball joints. So... not sure. I'm also not lowered.

Rear.

1. The rear coils are basically an adjustable spring perch iirc.

2. One is poly, and one is spherical. The panhard can be switched to a watts link. But then you're getting complex. It basically allows the rear axle to flex along an arc.
http://www.turnology.com/tech-storie...-a-watts-link/

3. You forgot torque rods. Those are more common to go spherical and you'll need adjustable if you're lowering. To center the axle in the wheelwell again.

4. Boxing is again mostly for rally/track use.
https://www.kaplhenke.com/products/2...-trailing-arms

7. If it makes you feel better, my fastest 1/4 mile time in my Evo is on my snow tires by 2 tenths 12.6 Ripped a 1.6 60'
EivlEvo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 09:15 PM   #15
ogamer777
Board Member
 
ogamer777's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: PNW
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EivlEvo View Post
1. If you go coilovers, the spring rates are numerous. This is the benefit of coilovers... it's a standardized spring size and fitment. What rate you choose is up to you based on what you want. Getting the spring rates for the stock GT springs is probably a good starting point though. Heck if I can remember them.

2. Roll correction CORRECTS the geometry but doesn't raise or lower the car itself. It raises or lowers the roll center. This is a good write-up.
http://thecartech.com/subjects/auto_...oll_Center.htm

3. Those plates I'm unfamiliar with, but plates are plates. If you want MORE adjustment for camber and caster, you have to go with those other options. The stock setup doesn't leave much room for adjustment, but again... this depends on how much adjustment you NEED. For most people, running more than a 1.3 degrees on the street and they're whining about tire wear. It's all a balance.

4. Again, check. Not sure. Don't have them and have no need to shop them... so not well versed on the specifics.

5. If yours are straight, there's no need to change them. Yoshifab or Kaphlenke or a handful of others maybe offer pre-cut plates. But steel is steel. Buy some, weld it where you want it. This isn't worth doing unless you're on track though I'd say.

6. Poly vs rubber isn't strictly about feeling the road. It's about how the car transitions. Poly is ideal in some spots, sphericals are better in others, and rubber is perfect for some.

7. The tie rods would connect to the RCC kit if I'm not mistaken. It's different for different cars. On my Evo it's simply taller ball joints. So... not sure. I'm also not lowered.

Rear.

1. The rear coils are basically an adjustable spring perch iirc.

2. One is poly, and one is spherical. The panhard can be switched to a watts link. But then you're getting complex. It basically allows the rear axle to flex along an arc.
http://www.turnology.com/tech-storie...-a-watts-link/

3. You forgot torque rods. Those are more common to go spherical and you'll need adjustable if you're lowering. To center the axle in the wheelwell again.

4. Boxing is again mostly for rally/track use.
https://www.kaplhenke.com/products/2...-trailing-arms

7. If it makes you feel better, my fastest 1/4 mile time in my Evo is on my snow tires by 2 tenths 12.6 Ripped a 1.6 60'
1. I think i found the fronts of the GT to be 148 in lbs and rears are the same as 242/244 at 114 in lbs. Like i said i have no clue what any of this means i can only guess that the spring would need that much torque for it to start to compress, so the higher the rating the stiffer the spring. I do like a stiffer ride rather than that of a soft one.

2. So thats a definite yes for purchasing the QSC

3. Im not looking for crazy negative camber but i would like a small amount. IIRC volvo made the 240s stock with positive camber?

4. I will look into bearings. If i stick with the 15A plates ill buy new, otherwise i think Kaps have them integrated.

5. I think i may save boxing for later, as i am not certain if the car will see the track or not, yet.

6. From what ive read the poly bushing in the front are hit or miss. Ill give em a shot and see what it feels like. worst case i can swap em out for rubber ones.

7. I think they do attach like normal, but with 3 different holes for some reason...

Rear

1. will probably be happy with the perches.

2. I doubt ill go for a watts style setup. Wanna try out the Kap panhard since ive dealt with IPD.

3. Torque rods will be spherical Kap also.

4. Again, may hold off on boxing unless i end up getting new RTAs for ease of swapping the bushings in.

5. What tires were those?? I need to get me some lmao. I barely have any traction with these.
ogamer777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2017, 09:52 PM   #16
EivlEvo
Board Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Default

Spring rate is the amount of weight needed to compress a spring 1 inch. Spring rates are calculated by the weight of the car. Specifically, corner weights and then decided on with handling characteristics. This might sound ridiculous, but it's worth messing with Forza or Gran Turismo to understand what implications there are for stiff/soft for front or rear. You're probably over-thinking and over-building this suspension tbh.

You're wrong about the Volvo having positive camber. But it has very little negative adjustment. Consider that there are probably people here that have raced within the limitations of the stock camber. Also consider that certain modifications will move your car from one class to another and it may not be able to compete in it's new class.

The tires were General Tire Altimax's haha. 235/40/17. In actual snow (on the Volvo, not the Evo) I use Firestone Winterhawks or whatever tho... I like them way better.
EivlEvo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 01:41 AM   #17
Tuff240
240 Ninja
 
Tuff240's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Central California
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EivlEvo View Post
You're wrong about the Volvo having positive camber.
Factory settings are positive camber iirc.
__________________

-Patrick
Tuff240 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 02:15 AM   #18
ogamer777
Board Member
 
ogamer777's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: PNW
Default

One thing i completely forgot about was i already have new bilstein struts and shocks too, revalved to Dave Barton's suggested specs, strut: Rebound/Compression: 220/100. Shock: Rebound/Compression: 300/120

But like i said, i would rather have it all ready to go and be able to handle whatever power i throw at it. With the b230ft and who knows how much boost ill be running when i get it all said and done, i would rather have suspension already taken care of. Plus i will actually enjoy driving the car as opposed to right now its literally like a boat. Swaying back and forth with blown struts.

Last edited by ogamer777; 12-07-2017 at 02:25 AM..
ogamer777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 01:42 PM   #19
blkaplan
50 shades of beige
 
blkaplan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Rockville, MD
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuff240 View Post
Factory settings are positive camber iirc.
yes, this is correct. a horrible positive camber from the factory
__________________
www.BEIGEPOWER.com
Kaplhenke Racing Facebook
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkKratoz View Post
The only safe bet is Ben.©
blkaplan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 03:24 PM   #20
EivlEvo
Board Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blkaplan View Post
yes, this is correct. a horrible positive camber from the factory
There's no way! Really? On all years?

GD... just looked it up!
EivlEvo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 03:57 PM   #21
ogamer777
Board Member
 
ogamer777's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: PNW
Default

See I'm not completely useless lol
ogamer777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 05:05 PM   #22
EivlEvo
Board Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ogamer777 View Post
See I'm not completely useless lol
lol nevermind that. The guy coming in here to give you suspension advice doesn't even know the stock setup on the 240
EivlEvo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2017, 05:12 PM   #23
ogamer777
Board Member
 
ogamer777's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: PNW
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EivlEvo View Post
lol nevermind that. The guy coming in here to give you suspension advice doesn't even know the stock setup on the 240
Lmao well it won't really matter once I get the right parts
ogamer777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2017, 12:33 PM   #24
dl242gt
Can play the blues
 
dl242gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: S NJ, a suburb of Phila.
Default

With positive camber stock. That sets up the car so at the slightest provocation the tires will scream thus scaring you to stop driving so aggressively. It was part of the safety engineering and didn't cost much to implement. Besides they aren't paying for your tires.
__________________
Dave,
1982 242 turbo. MVP coilover front and rear adjustable suspension. Bilstein HD. IPD 25/25 bars. 3" rusty MVP exhaust. Cosworth Sierra hot side T3 .48 with upgraded stock .42 compressor. Ported 90+. D&F Performance flowed 405 with enem V15 turbo cam, Clanky worn True Track diff. Flat hood 1979 242 front.

1993 245 Classic, 411k miles, enem V15. 5spd. IPD bars and chassis braces. New Simons sport exhaust from Scandix.
dl242gt is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:14 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.