home register FAQ memberlist calendar

Go Back   Turbobricks Forums > Mechanical > maintenance & nonperformance

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-10-2020, 09:48 PM   #1
2turbotoys
Hybrid moments...
 
2turbotoys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Reading pa
Default E fan only runs for 3 seconds at a time, temp gauge hot

I have been trying to pin down what is going on with the cooling system in my 79 242 for a while. Replaced almost everything. The temp gauge goes almost all the way to the red when in slow traffic, so I thought the e fan wasn't working. It does, but only for about 3 seconds at a time. 30 seconds later it will do it again. It is an 850 fan, mounted in a 240 shroud, factory fan relay setup.

This happened before, so I installed an Autometer gauge in the glove box and it never went much over 210 degrees. I wanted my regular gauge back so pulled the Autometer out and hooked up the stock gauge. That would only work intermittently, so I just replaced it with another unit. This one goes very high as I mentioned, then back down to the N when at 50 mph or so for a few minutes. Do these not have the compensator thing which keeps the needle steady on the N?

What I did so far (for various reasons but this is the state of the cooling system):
New water pump
New thermostat
New radiator
New thermoswitch
New temp gauge sending unit (can you test these?)
Solid state voltage regulator for cluster
Replaced temp gauge with another one to see if that was the problem

Maybe there is no problem as the Autometer gauge read ok temps, but why does the fan not stay running for more than 3 seconds? This is sitting in the driveway watching the gauge and fan.
__________________
Feedback thread https://forums.tbforums.com/showthread.php?t=144924

1978 242, 5.3 L33
1979 242, MS, R brakes
2006 V50 T5 AWD @ 17 PSI
2turbotoys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2020, 10:19 PM   #2
iamrolling
Board Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Default

Did you try popping open the relay, cleaning it and redoing the solder?
__________________
1993 940 Turbo (Mostly stock)

WARNING: I am not a professional mechanic, and you should only base your repair decisions on my advice if I'm not corrected by someone who has worked on more than a few Volvos.
iamrolling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2020, 10:30 PM   #3
2turbotoys
Hybrid moments...
 
2turbotoys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Reading pa
Default

I did not, what would be happening in there to shut the fan off? I don't think there is any thermal protection. I can do that though.
2turbotoys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2020, 10:43 PM   #4
iamrolling
Board Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Default

Possibly the relay kicking on, heating up, and expanding the solder. Go in with both flux core solder and an additional tube of flux if you can. I can't think of anything else that would cause that except a problem in the ECU.
Does the 850 fan run at a higher wattage? It could very well have revealed a problem in the relay's solder.
iamrolling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2020, 11:42 PM   #5
2turbotoys
Hybrid moments...
 
2turbotoys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Reading pa
Default

It has no connection to the ECU, it is a K Jet car converted to Megasquirt. Megasquirt only runs the injectors, no timing. The fan circuit is only the fan, relay and thermoswitch. As far as wattage, the 850 fan is an old school solid upgrade, but I have never read anything about the wattage. E fans in general use a ton of current to turn on though.

I do have a few relays, I will restore one with the solder gun.
2turbotoys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2020, 02:35 AM   #6
iamrolling
Board Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Default

Barton claims the 850/940 fan pulls "lots of amps" when starting a high speed spin, if that helps. I assume he means relative to the other electric fans he's worked with.
iamrolling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2020, 06:20 AM   #7
Kjets On a Plane
Board Member
 
Kjets On a Plane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: 97201
Default

Where’s the fan temp switch located?
SAAB T in bottom radiator hose with quality Volvo/Saab/audi NLA Made in W. Germany 77-82C or 82-87C switch or switch in passenger radiator end tank?
Temp switch in top radiator hose or crappy China temp switches will do **** like this.

Fan does draw a lot, Denso 100A / good belt grip or Bosch 100A helps but even then it’s a lot for the redblocks/v-belts.
Still, efan, even with the larger radiator, never really worked that well on the last of the USA market redblock cars. non-A/C euro market cars don't use that POS.

Restore to stock tropical clutch fan?
It basically does the same thing as switch in top of passenger end tank mechanically: top of radiator at t-stat temp but not totally heat soaked but measuring temp of heat exchanger output.

Have a Saab T and a thinning stash of made in W.Germany lower temp on-off no fuss switches. The nissens 3 rows will accept that brass screw-in switch on the passenger end tank, Volvo radiators that take the push-in switch w/rubber bushing you can use the 88-92C Volvo Regina temp switch for 1992+ 740/940 regina cars.

Biggest problem with the SAAB T is having to splice the hose and that it's mild steel/most car crusty if someone doesn't change the coolant. That said, sensor at the bottom/well submerged even if there's a slight coolant loss (or you install the coolant float sensor like the 7/9s have? connected to a dash warning lamp with something better than avg TB lowered lowlife amateur-hour/OE eurotrash biodegradeable 80s volvo wiring) and coolant drain for the radiator without making a mess/having to pull the radiator is a nice side benefit.
Stainless MBZ 7mm drive clamps are nice?
Screw is mild on them IIRC?

No compensator, sender and gauge rarely fails on 73-80 cluster.
__________________
How PSI a stock can support?
Always Be Crushing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMc View Post
If you send me $20$14.99, I'll send you a how-to explaining how to make $20$14.99 from people on the internet.

Last edited by Kjets On a Plane; 09-12-2020 at 05:59 PM..
Kjets On a Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2020, 06:59 AM   #8
Lazarus
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Seattle, WA
Thumbs down

Interesting symptom. The fan runs for 3 seconds, then is off for how long? You need to do some electrical checks and stop throwing parts at it. If you ground your fan thermostat line, the fan should run. I agree (above) pull your fan relay(s) and have a close look.


-L
Lazarus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2020, 02:22 PM   #9
VB242
F*ck 12
 
VB242's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: In my 15x20 Corona cell
Default

I agree with K-jets, if the switch is near the top of the radiator it will cycle like this, when I moved it to the Saab tee in the lower hose it worked much better. It also came on earlier. I'm running the fan off my microsquirt now.
__________________
"i will destroy all of you!"
-Sheldon Plankton

Booty Scooty
https://youtu.be/i4oAOZ8nbq4
VB242 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2020, 02:29 PM   #10
Toybox
mostly lurking
 
Toybox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Nor Cal
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2turbotoys View Post
It has no connection to the ECU [...] The fan circuit is only the fan, relay and thermoswitch.
Ah, at first I thought "e-fan" implied ECU control. But what you've got is wonderfully old school.

All you need to do is figure out whether the thermoswitch is flaky (meaning the relay is doing exactly what it is told) or else the thermoswitch is telling the relay to function but the relay won't comply.

Or the third option: control is good but the fan won't comply. Is there a thermal circuit breaker built-in to the fan motor, to protect from abnormally high inrush current? In which case, can the bearings be cleaned and lubed? I'm totally guessing, but this scenario fits pretty well with the symptom of running for 3 seconds.
Toybox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2020, 07:40 PM   #11
2turbotoys
Hybrid moments...
 
2turbotoys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Reading pa
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjets On a Plane View Post
Where’s the fan temp switch located?.
It is a new Volvo radiator with the push in thermoswitch. I used this before in my old 740T, and it worked well, but maybe it doesn't in a B21?

Never gonna put the mechanical fan back in haha.

I do have one of those SAAB T's, I can try that. Anyone know the part # of the thermoswitch or year/model to order it? I forget what car I got that from, many years ago.
Edit: found the switch, but appears to read 115-110, which is really hot
Edit #2 haha, BECK/ARNLEY 2011545 is an 82 deg C switch, BECK/ARNLEY 2010809 is a 92 deg C switch. What is the better choice? I think the 82 deg C one, I ran the car without a thermostat for a while and it ran fine.

The relay is doing exactly what it is told, if you complete the circuit with a screwdriver on the thermoswitch terminals the fan will keep running until you remove it.

Last edited by 2turbotoys; 09-11-2020 at 08:18 PM..
2turbotoys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2020, 12:32 AM   #12
Kjets On a Plane
Board Member
 
Kjets On a Plane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: 97201
Default

Air bubble?
Leak?

I’ve had air bubbles on bcp headed B21s that don’t come out as willingly moreso than small water pump pulley 700Turbo/their heater core path.
If there’s a leak or bad expansion tank cap, sometimes the switch/all else is good, but switch barely submerged, switch turns on fan, coolant shrinks/switch ceases to be submerged, fan turns off.

Air bleed on t-stat oriented right & all?

Don’t know what else to tell ya.
Have replaced a few 88-92C regina switches that failed in '92-'93 e-fan 7/9 cars that ate the headgasket + heater core on regina 940s along with the radiator end tank (taking too long to turn on the fan) just after replacing the HG, expansion tank cap (deformed/valve stuck shut) made a mess but didn’t overheat/caught it quick. Don’t miss coolant spills/toxic fluids & surprises as a mechanic.
Quite the 1-2-3 knockout.
Block per stealthfti (same experience here) always shows signs of running too hot on the OE E-fan cars.
Regina less-so (ish)...switch is more conservatively placed/temp range like the clutch fan cars/less reactive like the ECU temp sensor location in the head that the ECU doesn't kick on until the aaaaaabsolute last second, nearly stalling the poor overburdened redblock in the heavy fat lazy american 7/9 barge.

Last edited by Kjets On a Plane; 09-12-2020 at 06:02 PM..
Kjets On a Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2020, 11:09 AM   #13
Lazarus
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Seattle, WA
Default

Ground the fan thermostat line. The fan should run.

-L
Lazarus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2020, 12:11 PM   #14
dbarton
Dejected by Volvo
 
dbarton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: North of Dallas
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamrolling View Post
Barton claims the 850/940 fan pulls "lots of amps" when starting a high speed spin, if that helps. I assume he means relative to the other electric fans he's worked with.
A lot of amps compared to a belt driven fan (wrote that in context of dealing with heavy amp spikes).
Not really a lot of amps compared to most electric fans nowadays.
Dave
__________________


'84 242ti, fourth owner, mine since 2003. Always garaged since brand new. Old-school rounds because I like. B21FT, SDS EFI/IGN, TD04HL-15G, T5Z trans with 0.73 OD, hydro clutch, 3.91 diff with unmodified G80.
Volvo Ambivalence of Volvo Enthusiast Community: prancingmoose.com/#novolvo
Dave's Volvo Page: davebarton.com
240 Mods and Fixes Pages: 240turbo.com/volvo240mods.html
dbarton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2020, 03:41 PM   #15
Kjets On a Plane
Board Member
 
Kjets On a Plane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: 97201
Default

Alternators are only ~50% efficient (at best at perfect/ideal ~2500-3k RPM engine cruising economy speed), why make the electricity go thru shady un-fused/circuit breakered euro-trash car wiring going under an oil-leaky tractor motor to then drive the fan brushed DC motor non-variable speed/pitch fan that's ~80% efficient on the motor on a small/marginally sized radiator requiring more belt tension with a small alt pulley/large reflected moment of inertia & shady/sketchy redblock accessory brackets/bushings, again?

Granted, typical of the swedes/british/anglos, they didn't really design the clutched fan right either;
RPM too high, on the undersized water pump bearing, same blade as a nissan truck with a wider radiator but lighter duty, super annoyingly noisy (blade pitch/symmetry more than anything there/low bid Aisin part).

Look under the hood of the Toyotas (Toyota got the controlling share in Aisin) & their heavy equipment & thus got to source top-shelf Aisin stuff 4-ch33p with legendary Japanese quality control; fan's quiet and efficient on most all of them/never have problems with it/never leaks oil at the clutch hub hardly (Landcruisers & worked real real hard forklift in a hot warehouse getting slammed around full speed on/off the gas lifting shipping containers or something crazy heavy or same motor in the Toyota 4x4 van with a really ****ty undersized little radiator with the front diff blocking all the airflow, sometimes ...BRUTAL though...).

Same with the AW-71 trans in the volvo; turbo-volvo is the highest HP application for that trans & everything about the volvo adaptation of it is totally half-ass & a mess & over-stressed/miserable to repair/leaky compared to the ~98HP stuff they put the AW-71 in otherwise and 114Hp they put the weak AW-70 in in the volvo. low bid, **** adaptation/design. Typical of volvo cars.

IDK if I missed something, or you had a calibrated temp gauge in the 7/9 car you had when it was working "fine", but all the 7/9 cars except the very very early ones with VDO instrument cluster the temp gauge is just a gauge-shaped warning lamp more-or-less;
indicates the coolant isn't yet warm~150F or so/don't beat on it/flog it brutally
or you overheated it, with whatever damage that did long or short term/probably too late.

Might have worked about as well/badly in that car more-or-less (tho no 3sec on/off?), but if you were using the OE gauge, you probably wouldn't have had clue 1/inspector clueseau/clue-zero, necessarily?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2turbotoys View Post
Never gonna put the mechanical fan back in haha.
The all-join-in/circular-around camp song & TB jeer?
See ya next year (if that's going to be a thing)?
Requests?
kumbaya?
Camptown ladies?


'least I don't gotta travel for that nostalgic campfire smell eh?
Who needs beautiful late summer PNW vacation?

Last edited by Kjets On a Plane; 09-12-2020 at 06:29 PM..
Kjets On a Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2020, 05:20 PM   #16
Redwood Chair
K-jet For Life
 
Redwood Chair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: - Stock PSI Or Bust -
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjets On a Plane View Post
Much truthiness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjets On a Plane View Post
More truthiness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2turbotoys View Post

Never gonna put the mechanical fan back in haha.


Can't possibly be one of the kewl kids with a tropical clutch per Volvo's reccomendation.

Just look at Dave Barton's e-fan adventures hundreds of hours and dollars and he's still not completely happy with the results?

That said unless you don't have anything else better to do why not put in a 66% less efficient e-fan that runs most of the time?

Or simply buy a more modern car with better sound deadening and a quieter fan instead of installing earrings on a sow's ear?
__________________
Raise The Lowered


Image hosted by servimg.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by hiperfauto View Post
Folks on here don't know a good deal when they see it.
how psi stock cna support?


Last edited by Redwood Chair; 09-12-2020 at 05:29 PM..
Redwood Chair is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2020, 08:34 PM   #17
2turbotoys
Hybrid moments...
 
2turbotoys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Reading pa
Default

I have converted several of my Volvos to efans, never had a problem until now. I'll sell my last metal fan to the kool aid crowd, just found the adapter for it. Hanging a few pounds of metal off the waterpump isn't the best idea, pretty much every manufacturer gave that up a long time ago.

The cap is now bad, in the start of this it seemed fine, but now whistles and leaks a little. The thermostat is installed correctly, valve at the top.

I know it was working well in the 740T, for 14 years, checked with an Autometer gauge more than once, and it cycled like a normal fan does. It didn't run that often, just when needed. And I showed that car no mercy, it had a much bigger turbo and all the stuff to go with it. You could hear the fan turn on and even feel hot air blowing out under the car.

Ken, you know I own 2 modern Volvos as well as the old ones.

Appreciate the help guys, I will replace the cap, if that doesn't help I will put my Saab T in.
2turbotoys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2020, 10:00 PM   #18
Kjets On a Plane
Board Member
 
Kjets On a Plane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: 97201
Default

^Metal fan on a 240
That's british junk/non-thermostatic/no need to run that on the SOHC 4-cylinder.
Rarely if ever fails on the bright side, just keep your fingers away/keep adding fuel to spin it minus T-stat.
Debatable on B20/run it if you can't find the rare USA-market flex fan in perfect shape/works.

Plastique with the Aisin thermostat goodie 1981+ style.
Wear part yeah, but so's an alternator/fan motor.
Take care/keep your fingers off it/motor mounts good and shroud in place.
No more (if any) power if in good repair (clutch & blade is any good).
But this is TB and everyone loooooves the E-fan mod.

Every single 1992+ 7/9 turbo car w/e-fan the engine pulled apart showed evidence of running on the ragged edge of cooked.
No thanks.
It's a brick shaped longitudinal motor car that's electrically/engine accessory mounting challenged, T-static mech fan fits/works.

That said, if it's just an N/A clapped out low-friction volvo tolerance/quality control loosey/goosey 200K+mile B21F N/A, test your push-in switch with either the el-cheapo meat thermometer (or your autometer gauge/sender since you got 12V+DC there already from the battery maintainer/little battery for testing the switch anyway right?, your choice) and ohm beeper/test light that draws 5-20W of current thru the switch with some just under 200F water from the electric kettle that slowly cools for your switches on/off points a few times?
Or your https://www.vestaprecision.com/produ...iABEgLKu_D_BwE
$$$ restaurant precisely temp controlled consistent meat cooker/precisely temp controlled pot for casting metal dental teeth/jewelry?
Don't do it with the wife around in the case of the former/make suuuuuuure to get all that ethylene-glycol residue out before you return it to the shelf...

BTDT a bunch of times/catch a ****ty switch a few times.
Find the air bubble/fix the cap?
No need to install a foreign part (SAAB T) to solve this IMO/don't fire the parts cannon just yet eh?
Either you have an electrical problem or a blocked passage/air bubble/bad cap or something like that.
Coolant mixed ok?
IDK if the OE volvo black caps are still any good.

Some tempermental/less that forgiving cars rely on steam pockets (Hitler's Revenge VW/Audi comes to mind) and the cheaped out german/EU mandate recycled plastique failing in any way will make the entire cooling system cease to function, or plastique water pump impeller, or plastique reservoir built into radiator....or soon to be entire plastique engine???

Last edited by Kjets On a Plane; 09-13-2020 at 12:59 AM..
Kjets On a Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2020, 10:21 PM   #19
iamrolling
Board Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Default

Kjets, can a clutch fan be installed on my car? I've thought about putting one on, but the electric fan seems to be connected to the ECU and I don't want to upset it by cutting its fan control.
iamrolling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2020, 10:21 PM   #20
2turbotoys
Hybrid moments...
 
2turbotoys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Reading pa
Default

It was stock, so not sure why that's funny, but no worries about my fingers because I won't reinstall it. It makes a better garage decoration than the intended purpose. I don't have a plastic one, and certainly wouldn't spend money on getting one since I have 4 more e fan setups lol.

Alternator upgrades are easy and pretty cheap.

Anyway, this thread was about figuring out my e fan, I have already said I will not revert to the old style fan, there are several reasons why people put efans in, performance is one of main reasons. When you have that tiny amount of power, rotating mass on the engine is a bad thing.

I swear you guys will want me to put K Jet back in the car next, but that also will not happen lol.
2turbotoys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2020, 10:24 PM   #21
2turbotoys
Hybrid moments...
 
2turbotoys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Reading pa
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamrolling View Post
Kjets, can a clutch fan be installed on my car? I've thought about putting one on, but the electric fan seems to be connected to the ECU and I don't want to upset it by cutting its fan control.
It is not connected to the ECU, and yes you can, but why would you? Plus threadjacking
2turbotoys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2020, 01:05 AM   #22
Kjets On a Plane
Board Member
 
Kjets On a Plane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: 97201
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamrolling View Post
Kjets, can a clutch fan be installed on my car? I've thought about putting one on, but the electric fan seems to be connected to the ECU and I don't want to upset it by cutting its fan control.
1992+ USA 7/9 w/wider e-fan rad/OE setup?

You can use the shroud/clutched fan from the B280 V6 car IIRC for the wide radiator with the redblock IIRC. I *think* that recombining of the junkpile works from memory.

Don't pay much attention to the 7/9s anymore/no incentive to/not paid to often/ever.
Decent enough cars (mechanically, but ugly/dated looking/nasty plastic interior/headliner), worlds cheapest owners.

That said, it's ECU controlled on the LH cars and just comes on waaaay late.
Use a lower temp switch/some other way to turn on the relay worked for me?
Coolest of the factory regina temp switch should click it on a bit sooner since the ECU doesn't control the fan on those cars/switch is a bit more conservative/not so close to the ragged edge helped a lot for me if your radiator's got the spot for it (push in switch of factory alum plastic rad or screw in if certain aftermarket)?
If not, SAAB T in lower hose & lower temp switch works too. Just more hose clamps/maybe somewhat unsightly splice/make sure the SAAB T isn't a ball of rust and decent quality switch (readily available new, just at what quality with all the china slave crap in the pipeline?)

Blades are a little quieter/more efficient on the last revision 2000 P80 70-series version of that fan that fits in the 940 E-fan shroud, but not sure it's worth splitting hairs over that. That said, IDK that it really moves any more air worth nitpicking about.

I have the kool-aid lincoln mark-8 fans of the most powerful of the cheap/junkyard e-fans that can be possibly crammed into the turbo volvo/more compact passenger car engine bay.
Probably fry the poor alternator/overload the wiring like a sketchy taco truck breaker sub panel/make-shift restaurant kitchen breaker-panel without further reinvention/revision of the whole car/cooling setup.

John Lane went back to stock Aisin T-static tropical clutched plastic blade fan + shroud on the 500+hp rally car from e-fan, can't be total junk?
Revved up plenty fast with a shaved steel flywheel and close ratio gear box & short forged V6 crank.

For a street car the clutched in good shape probably uses less power honestly & better longevity with stock rad/electrical system. Just saying.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~

2turbotoys, offered info in good faith, not trying to talk you into/out of e-fan or T-static mech fan/not trying to tell you what to do/not do, just sharing the experience & info, make what you will of it or not.

Last edited by Kjets On a Plane; 09-13-2020 at 01:16 AM..
Kjets On a Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2020, 06:51 AM   #23
VB242
F*ck 12
 
VB242's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: In my 15x20 Corona cell
Default

I have the wide 940 radiator/-e-fan setup in my 242, controlled with microsquirt. I have it set to come on at 187 and off at 180. It cycles a bit in traffic but when it's cooler than 90 but it seems to run at 173 going down the road, pretty sure thermostat is 82C.
VB242 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:07 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.