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Old 12-14-2018, 09:28 PM   #1
Msi
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Default Type 9 manual swap into a Volvo 940

Hello, a type 9 gearbox question here.

I have a 96' Volvo 940 2.0 turbo sedan. I am after a manual swap and right now have an eye on a specific Ford type 9 gearbox. The donor is another, identical, Volvo 940, that has a type 9 in it. So, it is a direct swap over, of all the bits and pieces.

The stock Volvo specs are:
155 hp (116 kW) @5600
229 N⋅m (169 lb⋅ft) @3600

The car weights 1500kg. There will be some weight reduction but there will also be some chassis/strut braces and biffier sway bars added, so I consider that as the running weight.

My target is double the stock HP and torque.

I'll be running a performance clutch and stickier tires (for track days) or slippery tires (for drift days), all amateur events, no pro stuff. Just having fun, but properly .

Now, I realize that I'm going to kill the box, very fast, if not in minutes, especially whith sticky tires.

So, I'm considering a gear kit upgrade, to make it stronger and get better ratios along the way.
Here's one option, just to point out what I'm considering:
https://www.burtonpower.com/5-speed-...-gbt9230s.html

I have little to none fabrication skill. All work will be done by a real mechanic.

Where I live, we have no Volvo manual gearboxes and the T5s are rare and expensive.

The least technically challenging manual swaps that I can find are the Type 9 or a Toyota Hilux cab 2x4 pickup truck. These were done by several locals, so the know-how is there. Anything else would be a research and development project, which I'd not want to get in to. Basically, I want to do something that was already tried and tested.

Finally, my question is, is this a bonehead idea? Or, could this actually work?

If so, can I get away with say just a partial gear kit, upgrading some of the gears, or do I need the whole thing?

What actually breaks in a stock Type 9 when upder high torque application?

Thanks in advance for any input.
Matthew.
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Old 12-14-2018, 09:44 PM   #2
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Have you gotten a hold of Artem? Iirc he lives in Ashdod, so getting a hold of him shouldn't be tough. Would definitely start out with his opinion.

Off the bad I'd go with an M90 rather than the T9. It just offers no advantages at all and would be more expensive to get running.
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Old 12-14-2018, 09:45 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Msi View Post
Hello, a type 9 gearbox question here.

I have a 96' Volvo 940 2.0 turbo sedan. I am after a manual swap and right now have an eye on a specific Ford type 9 gearbox. The donor is another, identical, Volvo 940, that has a type 9 in it. So, it is a direct swap over, of all the bits and pieces.

The stock Volvo specs are:
155 hp (116 kW) @5600
229 N⋅m (169 lb⋅ft) @3600

The car weights 1500kg. There will be some weight reduction but there will also be some chassis/strut braces and biffier sway bars added, so I consider that as the running weight.

My target is double the stock HP and torque.

I'll be running a performance clutch and stickier tires (for track days) or slippery tires (for drift days), all amateur events, no pro stuff. Just having fun, but properly .

Now, I realize that I'm going to kill the box, very fast, if not in minutes, especially whith sticky tires.

So, I'm considering a gear kit upgrade, to make it stronger and get better ratios along the way.
Here's one option, just to point out what I'm considering:
https://www.burtonpower.com/5-speed-...-gbt9230s.html

I have little to none fabrication skill. All work will be done by a real mechanic.

Where I live, we have no Volvo manual gearboxes and the T5s are rare and expensive.

The least technically challenging manual swaps that I can find are the Type 9 or a Toyota Hilux cab 2x4 pickup truck. These were done by several locals, so the know-how is there. Anything else would be a research and development project, which I'd not want to get in to. Basically, I want to do something that was already tried and tested.

Finally, my question is, is this a bonehead idea? Or, could this actually work?

If so, can I get away with say just a partial gear kit, upgrading some of the gears, or do I need the whole thing?

What actually breaks in a stock Type 9 when upder high torque application?

Thanks in advance for any input.
Matthew.
Shabat Shalom and say Hi! To Tel Aviv! Just watched a movie last night set there..
Listen you don't need a full close ratio in turbo car..
Burton's sells a "half kit " which raises 1st gear to 2.96..That alone will increase the torque capapcity of the gearbox (by reducing the torque multiplication from input shaft down to cluster gear.
Get than READ which Type 9 you must have, the V6 or the 4 cylinder..

Torque is what kills any box as regards failures..
But what kills most boxes I've been in is lack of clean oil..
Or lack of even disgusting diarrhea-like "oil"...

Where do you get the Type 9s from? Did they sell Sierras in Isreal? (I was there before Sierras were around)

Look for the half kit and if you can't find it I'll find it..i think 3 places make them..
Now though I need TEA!!!! and must throw an alternator is some lunatic Quebecois maniacs car..A NICE fresh, real rebuild!

Ciao!
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Old 12-14-2018, 09:48 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Harlard View Post
Have you gotten a hold of Artem? Iirc he lives in Ashdod, so getting a hold of him shouldn't be tough. Would definitely start out with his opinion.

Off the bad I'd go with an M90 rather than the T9. It just offers no advantages at all and would be more expensive to get running.
Junge! halt maule..Type 9 ain't bad and there are advantages*...aquerdo?



* like maybe they're common as sh!t and cost nothing..
For years they WERE the prferred gearbox for guys in Sweden back when club guys in non-turbo cars were doing 230-235 hp and maybe 185 ft/lbs..
But you weren't born then..so as they say in Sweden Håll truten
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Old 12-14-2018, 09:52 PM   #5
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Guy's wanting to spend 800 of the Queen's quid to buy a gearset for the T9. Why not just get an M90? Still common as חרא that side of the Atlantic...
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Old 12-15-2018, 04:22 AM   #6
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Shabbat Shalom and THANK YOU for both your replies!!!

Will defo touch base with Artem.

And yes, the M series Volvo boxes are virtually non existent in Israel. Were never mass imported, so only the few that were imported by inthusiasts.

The Type 9s, however, are very, very common. Mostly the 4 cylinders (Sierras, Transits, Cortinas).

So, not only is it much easier to come by (I have one sitting in a shed) there's plenty of local know-how on servicing them.

Would be perfect if I can get away with a half kit, 1st and maybe 2nd gears.

Burton sells a couple from Tracsport:

https://www.burtonpower.com/ford-sie...t-gbt9200.html

https://www.burtonpower.com/ford-sie...t-gbt9201.html

I am aware of these brands that make full kits: Quafe, 3J, Tran-X, Tracsport.
So I can ask them if they are also making half kits.

Is there anyone else that makes those?

Also thanks for the numbers John. Good to know that stock Type 9s can handle "230-235 hp and maybe 185 ft/lbs"

Finally, should I go for a new kit? I see here and there (mostly on turbosport forums) the people are selling their used kits. Maybe that's an option?

Thanks again and cudos fr your time and know-how
Matthew.
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Old 12-15-2018, 02:20 PM   #7
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From what I read this T9 (German 5 speed) trans was used in the Ford Sierra and is rated for 200 HP, not 300 HP.
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Old 12-15-2018, 02:37 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by lummert View Post
From what I read this T9 (German 5 speed) trans was used in the Ford Sierra and is rated for 200 HP, not 300 HP.
Then what you read is Fan-boi misshygass..Manufacturers do not rate gearboxes for Horse-power..
Fan-boi on forum rate gearboxes for HP../

Serious people talk ft/lb rating , TORQUE capacity*..
Please...get with the programe.




*which is why I mentioned the torque output of the 230-235hp normal aspirated motors that was common 25 years ago when the Type 9 was popular in Volvos

Think, now! A motor could have 235 HP but 300 ft/lbs Or 235 and 180 ft/lbs..
Different stresses on the box.
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Old 12-15-2018, 05:07 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
Now though I need TEA!!!! and must throw an alternator is some lunatic Quebecois maniacs car..A NICE fresh, real rebuild!

Ciao!
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Old 12-15-2018, 05:10 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Vincent Gagnon View Post
12.1v

Now look at exciter circuit.
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Old 12-15-2018, 06:33 PM   #11
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12.1v

Now look at exciter circuit.
Oh dear.
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Old 12-15-2018, 06:47 PM   #12
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Oh dear.

Now 14.1 v

And sounds better-er.
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Old 12-15-2018, 07:05 PM   #13
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Now 14.1 v

And sounds better-er.
Give me a call when you can.
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Old 12-15-2018, 08:04 PM   #14
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Guy's wanting to spend 800 of the Queen's quid to buy a gearset for the T9. Why not just get an M90? Still common as חרא that side of the Atlantic...
Unfortunately, it is forbidden to import used automotive parts into Israel. As it is forbidden to import used cars into Israel. With the exception of cars and parts for cars that are 30+ years old (that are defined as collectible in Israel).

Yes, it is a sad sad reality for any petrol head in Israel.

That is why we have some T5 floating around, cause those were imported as parts for collectible cars. But, the prices are imaginary.

And that is why I'm looking at a Type 9, along with the fact that it is a very common box here.
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Old 12-15-2018, 08:14 PM   #15
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More confusion.

I found these two items, both from same dealer, both named -
"Ford Type 9 Gearbox Uprated 2.98:1 Ratio Long first gear conversion kit".

Both fit 4-cyl Ford Type 9.

However, it says that there are two different kinds of those:

This set is compatible with gearboxes fitted with a stub shaft, which run with the bearing F208843.
https://ebay.us/u5NgMq

This set is compatible with gearboxes fitted with a layshaft.
https://ebay.us/k4TtA2

What in the world is this about?
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Old 12-15-2018, 08:23 PM   #16
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Unfortunately, it is forbidden to import used automotive parts into Israel. As it is forbidden to import used cars into Israel. With the exception of cars and parts for cars that are 30+ years old (that are defined as collectible in Israel).

Yes, it is a sad sad reality for any petrol head in Israel.

That is why we have some T5 floating around, cause those were imported as parts for collectible cars. But, the prices are imaginary.

And that is why I'm looking at a Type 9, along with the fact that it is a very common box here.
Let's discuss the Sierras and Cortinas..
Did you get V6 cars?
What years did they come in?
There was an upgrade in 1987 I think. It is recoginzeable by looking at the front face of the box at the lower shaft...On the "normal" Type 9 its flat on the face, on the upgraded ones there is a lumpy boss there..



That 6 is "normal"
This is the "uprated" with bigger bearings for the bottom gear



I think most of the kits are for the "normal" Type 9.

I assume you have already read a lot...that is one thing that impressed me a lot when I was there long ago---everybody seemed to have read --and discussed--a huge range of things..and discussions were let's say "vigorous"---
But maybe , maybe not you've seen this excellent guide
https://www.classicfordmag.co.uk/wp-...peed-guide.pdf
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Old 12-15-2018, 09:00 PM   #17
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But maybe , maybe not you've seen this excellent guide
https://www.classicfordmag.co.uk/wp-...peed-guide.pdf
I googled for: ford type 9 gearbox types
and that indeed excellent guide was right there, so I read, and re-read it

However, the jargon is a little misleading me.

That guide references the "layshaft" in their schematic of the "normal" box.
But it never references a "stub shaft".

So, I'm concluding that this set, which they say that "is compatible with gearboxes fitted with a layshaft" -
https://ebay.us/k4TtA2

Is the one i need for a normal 4-cyl sierra box.

While this set, which they say that "is compatible with gearboxes fitted with a stub shaft, which run with the bearing F208843" -
https://ebay.us/u5NgMq

Is for the "uprated" box.

Am I reading this right?
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Old 12-15-2018, 10:08 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Msi View Post
I googled for: ford type 9 gearbox types
and that indeed excellent guide was right there, so I read, and re-read it

However, the jargon is a little misleading me.

That guide references the "layshaft" in their schematic of the "normal" box.
But it never references a "stub shaft".

So, I'm concluding that this set, which they say that "is compatible with gearboxes fitted with a layshaft" -
https://ebay.us/k4TtA2

Is the one i need for a normal 4-cyl sierra box.

While this set, which they say that "is compatible with gearboxes fitted with a stub shaft, which run with the bearing F208843" -
https://ebay.us/u5NgMq

Is for the "uprated" box.

Am I reading this right?

Terminology! Oi! layshaft is a ground rod that goes the entire length of the "clustergear", the bottom, usually 1 piece gear....
Most older boxes had, like "4 cylinder" Type 9, a whole bunch--like 21--small needle bearings loose..so you get some thick sticky grease and blob in some on each end of the cluster ID and then pick up each needle and stick it in one by one..Then, for thrust there was always a bronze thrust washer so you stick that on with some grease to hold it then pass the long "layshaft" thru the whole box---and hope and pray and cuss that you didn't hit the edge of one of the loose needle bearings and dislodge it...

Later everybody figured out to press a caged needle or roller bearing into the cluster on each end and simply install the "stub shaft"--and at same time make the stub 2x the diameter..Much easier assembly..which is important to manufacturer..

That is the main difference between the so called "World Class T5" and the not so World class T5...

Now it's interesting to see some boxes like the MT75 Ford box that they went to taper roller bearings-----which many many boxes use but in so many the bearing preload is set by selecting the shim that sits between the Bearing Outer Race and the case... OK that's nice but its a real bitch to assemble the box, check turning resistance, find its wrong--too loose--and have to strip the shaft and pound the outer race out somehow, find the next shim ---maybe 0,1mm thicker and re-assemble and re-check..
Nobody does this.

Ford in the MT75 and its family mounted the bearing in a threaded carrier which you simply scre in till it stops, then back out 2 teeth of the carrier..
You can see the bearing carrier right by the blue bolt in this piccie with the hex center and a bunch of little square toothies..Dead simple to get it right and quick too
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Old 12-15-2018, 11:59 PM   #19
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Don't you have Infinity G37's or Nissan 370z in you country? Did you consider swapping a CD009 6 speeds from one of these cars?
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Old 12-16-2018, 01:36 AM   #20
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Don't you have Infinity G37's or Nissan 370z in you country? Did you consider swapping a CD009 6 speeds from one of these cars?
350Z
1: 3.794:1
2: 2.324:1
3: 1.624:1
4: 1.271:1
5: 1.000:0
6: 0.794:1

Ferd



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Old 12-16-2018, 09:08 AM   #21
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350Z
1: 3.794:1
2: 2.324:1
3: 1.624:1
4: 1.271:1
5: 1.000:0
6: 0.794:1

Ferd



Gotta swap in a 3.31 final diff gear...
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Old 12-16-2018, 09:30 AM   #22
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Gotta swap in a 3.31 final diff gear...
Eeeeeew!
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Old 12-16-2018, 09:38 AM   #23
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Eeeeeew!
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Old 12-16-2018, 07:06 PM   #24
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Later everybody figured out to press a caged needle or roller bearing into the cluster on each end and simply install the "stub shaft"--and at same time make the stub 2x the diameter
This ^^^^ clears everything up.

Thank YOU!!
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Old 12-16-2018, 08:01 PM   #25
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BGH Geartech in the UK make parts for and entire Type 9 'boxes. They sell a gearset that is rated to 250 lb/ft.

http://www.bghgeartech.co.uk/html/gear_kits.html
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