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Old 05-27-2019, 09:44 AM   #1
deadken
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Default Looking for 39mm Sodium filled exhaust valves

I have a 531 head at a local machine shop that has a good reputation. While discussion what can be done, we talked about installing 39mm exhaust valves instead of the stock 38mm valves. The machinist likes this idea as it could be done while retaining the stock valve seats and should help exhaust flow. The price is reasonable for the work ($10 a valve), but the question is where to find a 39mm Valve, sodium filled if possible? I have found some listings by searching around the internet, but none of them seem to list the valve size. They all give application (year, make, and model) rather than dimensions. So, I wrote an email to TRW / ZF and I'm awaiting a response.

Figuring that I don't need to re-invent the wheel, I figured that I'd ask here what valves others have used. I realize that it's probably a very small percentage of the users that have done this, but I also realize that of the Volvo owners that have done this, a rather large percentage are likely members here! Thanks in advance for any helpful or humorous suggestions!
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Old 05-27-2019, 12:44 PM   #2
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When my machinst installed larger exhaust valves. He told me 38mm was the largest he would go safely using the stock seats. He had 38mm inconel exhaut valves made and installed them. It will be cheaper to just have the inconel valves made in the size that you need than to find sodium valves that fit.
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Old 05-27-2019, 01:34 PM   #3
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Machinist doesn't own a set of "very-nears"???

Cause it he did he know and then he can tell you that the stock exhaust valve dia ain't 38mm...
Personally I believe it should be the stock size and it is LONG ESTABLISHED that it is safe to put 38mm on the stock seats....

But it isn't 38mm stock...

Next.

38mm is fine

Next.

Sodium filled is meh...Bazillions of higher stressed than limp-dick lame ass Volvo turd-boats went quadrillions of miles just fine without sodium filled valves..

Worry more about matching shaft finish/material to guide material..correct stem length and correct seat pressure on the valve springs.....

But if your machinist can talk about this "1mm up from stock "38"" which is not 38, and sodium filled blah blah...Either he's over 75-80 years old and just pat him on the shoulders, or he's a BSer..or confused but either way run away.
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Old 05-27-2019, 01:37 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dl242gt View Post
When my machinst installed larger exhaust valves. He told me 38mm was the largest he would go safely using the stock seats. He had 38mm inconel exhaut valves made and installed them. It will be cheaper to just have the inconel valves made in the size that you need than to find sodium valves that fit.

Except it is the height of folly...Nobody here in turbobricks is even halfway to making the kind of power that would make inconel valves a worthwhile investment..

As kindly as i can figure out how to say it in the face of such overkill: get real
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Old 05-27-2019, 03:22 PM   #5
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upgrading from the 35mm valves to 38mm will see you a gain. As already pointed out factory was never 38mm and no need to bother with sodium filled valves
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Old 05-27-2019, 04:14 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
Except it is the height of folly...Nobody here in turbobricks is even halfway to making the kind of power that would make inconel valves a worthwhile investment..

As kindly as i can figure out how to say it in the face of such overkill: get real
They are a worthwhile investment if you want to build a long lasting powerful engine which was my goal when upgrading from the stock valves to the 38mm ones. Plus the upgraded valves were cheaper than even the stock 35mm sodium filled valves.

Nice try at trolling my post though.
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Old 05-27-2019, 04:25 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dl242gt View Post
They are a worthwhile investment if you want to build a long lasting powerful engine which was my goal when upgrading from the stock valves to the 38mm ones. Plus the upgraded valves were cheaper than even the stock 35mm sodium filled valves.

Nice try at trolling my post though.
It wasn't trolling sensitive little whiner boy..They are ridiculous overkill..talk to an honest engine builder and tell him you're building a 600 HP 8v redblock and ask them if they're "NEEDED"....I have and my head guy I've worked with for 35 years giggled..He builds plenty of Pro-stock and fuel drag motors, he know what makes power and what is needed..
He giggled.

In your whining and crying you just skipped right over the valuable part: neither you or your adviser managed to measure what stock is....
How can that be?

Grow up and quit accusing people of trolling when you write crap that is based on a flat lousy initial presumption. (If you can't even bother to measure the stock valve and see its size, that then discussion of should you upgrade to 39 inconel is certainly based on equally presumptive assumptions..
You also missed in your simpering crap the friendly and actually useful advice about stem to guide material compatibility---if you want a long lasting engine period much less a powerful one..

Chip off your shoulder yet?

You're welcome.
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Old 05-27-2019, 04:49 PM   #8
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I'm not sensitive. If you are gonna be a D**k GTFO.

What constructive anything thing did you add? Other than criticising my suggestions without any knowledge of what I was doing? The very same thing you complain about .

GO AWAY.
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Old 05-27-2019, 05:02 PM   #9
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I've got no clue about Volvo valve stem sizes, but maybe cut down LS9 exhaust valves?


39mm = 1.535"
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Old 05-27-2019, 10:10 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dl242gt View Post
I'm not sensitive. If you are gonna be a D**k GTFO.

What constructive anything thing did you add? Other than criticising my suggestions without any knowledge of what I was doing? The very same thing you complain about .

GO AWAY.
You are the reason Turbobricks performance section is a ghost-town...
I a) alerted you that you don't know what size valves are stock
b) altered you you head guys could not be troubled to know what size is stock
c) and that he was too lazy/incompetent/stupid to look up what size is stock and what can fit on the seats without the added expense and bother of changing all your seats for not measurable or perceivable benefit...knowing he has not bothered to check that makes any thinking person wonder how he would explain the extra expense if you somehow found valves.
d) alerted you that inconel is ostentatious overkill and dreaming
e) suggestion paying attention to stem finish (hard chrome, nitriding etc) to guide comparability....if you want long term life (hi performance or not)
f) suggested checking seat pressures---Mitsubishi 4G63 valve springs being an excellent spring dor 8v reblocks...no ridiculous titanium retainers needed--unless revving way past 10,000 rpm
g) and mainly I helped you understand what a ignorant twit you are when you answer all those helpful things by calling me a troll..

I don't need to know your plans and since you didn't say anything evidently they're not important...but that doesn't alter all your and your head guys assumptions and errors and omissions...
I'm glad you aren't sensitive, that's so annoying when you take the time to help people and just because they are whiny f**ktards they get angry when you point out their assumptions and start telling people to go away...

Oh wait.
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Old 05-27-2019, 10:21 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fandango View Post
I've got no clue about Volvo valve stem sizes, but maybe cut down LS9 exhaust valves?


39mm = 1.535"
Volvo is 8mm aka .315" Not 5/16----aka .03125"

Any idea of stem dia for that thing? LOA? price? sodium filled?

Are they all titanium? You machined titanium before? single round locks..That means more time and money finding the locks and retainers and setting the length right...And which underhead shape?
And what bit me in the ass when doing some 7mm stem titanium valves for a n.a. Redblock: : what about stem tips life span???
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Old 05-28-2019, 10:13 AM   #12
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Editing for the non-essential parts that break the rules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
It wasn't trolling sensitive little whiner boy..

In your whining and crying

Grow up and quit accusing people of trolling when you write crap that is based on a flat lousy initial presumption.

You also missed in your simpering crap the friendly and actually useful advice

Chip off your shoulder yet?

You're welcome.
Look in a mirror (if a written tone can be seen in a mirror).

Quote:
Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
You are the reason Turbobricks performance section is a ghost-town...

g) and mainly I helped you understand what a ignorant twit you are when you answer all those helpful things by calling me a troll..

whiny f**ktards they get angry when you point out their assumptions and start telling people to go away...

Oh wait.
1 week ban.
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Old 05-28-2019, 11:11 AM   #13
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I'd agree that sodium isn't worth chasing, and that inconel isn't necessary (not to say that there's NO reason to use it).

I spent a good portion of the winter on the phone with Ferrea racing having them cut custom valves to install in my RSI stage 2 head. We ended up using LS7/LS9 blanks for one side, and a blank they list for Ducati's on the other.

I have not run it yet, but the final machining and assembly was done by a high end machine shop and they gave everything the A-OK. Below is my invoice for part number references.

[IMG][/IMG]
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Old 05-28-2019, 12:05 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadken View Post
I have a 531 head at a local machine shop that has a good reputation. ... The machinist likes this idea as it could be done while retaining the stock valve seats and should help exhaust flow. The price is reasonable for the work ($10 a valve)...
Figuring that I don't need to re-invent the wheel, I figured that I'd ask here what valves others have used. I realize that it's probably a very small percentage of the users that have done this, but I also realize that of the Volvo owners that have done this, a rather large percentage are likely members here! Thanks in advance for any helpful or humorous suggestions!
Is this for an NA or turbo application? How will the engine be used? How many miles do you want to go between head rebuilds? That will really be the deciding factor in Ex valve material.

As others have mentioned, the stock valve size is 35-36mm depending on how much carbon is on the valve
38mm diameter exhaust valves are the largest that will fit on the stock seat.

The price of $10/valve to have the head work done is very cheap, sounds too cheap. To get the full benefit of the OS valves, the ID of the seat needs to be opened up to ~88-92% of the valve diameter. This means removing over 2mm from the ID of the ex seat, and then opening and blending the bowl area to match. A lot of shops will just transition the valve angles into the stock seat ID. This is the easy way to do it, but reduces flow over the correct way, as you're still flowing air through a stock sized hole...


Quote:
Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
Except it is the height of folly...Nobody here in turbobricks is even halfway to making the kind of power that would make inconel valves a worthwhile investment..
Inconel, and other high nickel SS valves, have been around for a long time. They were developed for durability over the long run in engine with high EGTs. Standard SS valves look absolutely beat on a 8v turbo (and hi-po NA) motor with 40k miles. If someone wants to spend an extra $100 on valves to get more miles out of a head between rebuilds, I'm all for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dl242gt View Post
They are a worthwhile investment if you want to build a long lasting powerful engine which was my goal when upgrading from the stock valves to the 38mm ones. Plus the upgraded valves were cheaper than even the stock 35mm sodium filled valves.
Bingo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fandango View Post
I've got no clue about Volvo valve stem sizes, but maybe cut down LS9 exhaust valves?

39mm = 1.535"
Of the shelf OS valves will be cheaper and less work overall. If the need is to go Inconel, there's usually a group buy a few times a year through Gary and REV valves.

KL Racing has decent OS steel and SS valves for cheap: https://shop.klracing.se/sv/artiklar...r-2/index.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
And what bit me in the ass when doing some 7mm stem titanium valves for a n.a. Redblock: : what about stem tips life span???
That's the easiest part to fix with Ti valves....
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Old 05-28-2019, 12:29 PM   #15
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One other thing to add, in case a reader has never done this:
You MUST open up the port and seat to get any performance gain. I know it sounds like a no-brainer, but I have seen plenty of big valves obstructing a tiny stock seat/bowl/yadda. One wasn't even bigger at the seat, the valve print was wayyy inboard (motorcycle).
The best approach is to use a one-piece multi-angle cutter on a mill for the seat and just inside, then port as needed. (I like to do final seat cutting after porting in case I booger something, but YMMV)
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Old 05-28-2019, 12:55 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikep View Post
One other thing to add, in case a reader has never done this:
You MUST open up the port and seat to get any performance gain. I know it sounds like a no-brainer, but I have seen plenty of big valves obstructing a tiny stock seat/bowl/yadda. One wasn't even bigger at the seat, the valve print was wayyy inboard (motorcycle).
The best approach is to use a one-piece multi-angle cutter on a mill for the seat and just inside, then port as needed. (I like to do final seat cutting after porting in case I booger something, but YMMV)
100% this.
Here's a big valve RSI head that was originally set up with stock seat IDs. The images are after a rough cut with a multi-point cutter. The shiny part on the ID, is the lip left after the cutter made a full seat cut.





I then bored the seat out ~2mm and transitioned it into the bowl (after cleaning it all up).

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Old 05-28-2019, 01:20 PM   #17
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^^ Nice work. I notice all the edges of the chamber are radiused as well. Too many people forget that step.
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Old 05-28-2019, 05:05 PM   #18
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Increasing valve size also increases shrouding, at what point does un-shrouding become necessary?

Also appears that indexing the ground electrode to the exhaust side would be a benefit to get it out of the flow.
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Old 05-28-2019, 05:53 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Rick View Post
Increasing valve size also increases shrouding, at what point does un-shrouding become necessary?
General rule of thumb:
Make a cone that has a 36deg angle from vertical and starting from the edge of the valve. Anything this cone touches up to full lift causes shrouding.
Shrouding effects can be minimized with port biasing.

There's a lot of info in the book linked at the bottom of this article: https://www.musclecardiy.com/cylinde...rmance-part-9/
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Old 05-28-2019, 08:06 PM   #20
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here's the 48/40 Ferrea valves in the chamber.





and a bit of the ports

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Old 05-29-2019, 08:09 AM   #21
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Regarding plug indexing, I have never seen a benefit aside from keeping a knotty piston from mashing it closed.
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Old 06-14-2019, 09:47 AM   #22
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I wanted to reach out and say thank you. I recognize that a lot of this thread went off topic a bit, but I am appreciative to those who gave their time and help. I know that I'm responding to this late, but I wanted to let things die down a bit.

I was mistaken. I messed up on the valve size. I went by memory and just threw the post up quickly, as I had to run out. I am sorry for the confusion that caused.

Right now, the head has been sent out to weld up the #4 exhaust port. When it comes back, the exhaust side will be milled to ensure that all mating surfaces are flat.

I have ordered 4 38mm valves and retainers from KL Racing (I had been planning to order an intercooler from them anyway)

I think what I will do is start another thread and decide just where I want to go with this car / engine. Then I can move forward in a way that makes sense. Again, I thank you guys. It's been a learning experience.
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Old 06-14-2019, 07:52 PM   #23
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I am glad you have a good perspective and are mving forward with putting a fun engine together. Never thought I would be attacked for suggesting overkill parts. lol

Anyway, wish you well with the engine.
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