home register FAQ memberlist calendar

Go Back   Turbobricks Forums > Mechanical > performance & modifications

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-22-2010, 10:31 PM   #1
whitebricks
Board Member
 
whitebricks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: charlotte, nc..../Boone
Exclamation Wrist Pin Clearance Question

Have oversize Volvo pistons for my b230ft build.
23mm wrist pin size and new bushings installed in the rods.

Question.
The Green Volvo Manual i have, the dealer one, says they should be a slight thumb pressure to insert the wrist pin into the rod. Well mine go in great. but i think the machine shop might have opened up the new bushing a little to much. Also states that there should not be any noticeable play. i wouldn't say that mine is noticeable but with one person holding the piston down and one moving the rod around, we THINK we feel a slight movement, not sure. (and not the rod sliding on the pin towards the piston)

My measurements are as follows.
wrist pin=23mm
new re-sized wrist pin bushing in the rod=23.05mm (This is the biggest one)
Difference between Bushing and pin=0.05mm i didn't think this was bad?!

Machine shop says this difference is a general standard they use.

I trust the machine shop but want to also see what the turbo brick family has to say about this.

Thanks. Any positive input is gratefully appreciated.
whitebricks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2010, 10:56 PM   #2
stealthfti
Board Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: sanction rescinded
Default

the bushings are too large. Your MS did hone them out too far.

Your pistons/rods are full floaters. The wristpins 'float'. It is described as 'light thumb pressure' to push the pins through the piston itself, and through the bushing in the rod.

Your measurement of 0,05mm as being the radial clearance between the wristpin and the rod bushing is TOO excessive.

.....0,05mm is nearly 2 thou [0.002in]. THAT is more than 4 times too loose.

i.e., the radial clearance should be less than 'half a thou'....0.0005in.

Now, will that much clearance, and the resulting slop....wobble of the rod on the pin.....cause problems?

yes......sometime.

how soon? take a guess. Yours would be as good as anyone's.

I'd have the MS rebush and rehone the bushings to get the clearances where they should be.

good luck

TF
stealthfti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 03:20 PM   #3
whitebricks
Board Member
 
whitebricks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: charlotte, nc..../Boone
Default

i ordered some new bushings this morning and then read your post, we felt the same way. thanks for the input, real helpful.
last build ran strong for awhile then ...knocked, sounded like a wrist pin? idk yet but just want to get this build right and not have any simple mistakes leading to ultimate failure. again
whitebricks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2010, 02:23 AM   #4
John V, outside agitator
Board Member
 
John V, outside agitator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sleezattle, WA, USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whitebricks View Post
i ordered some new bushings this morning and then read your post, we felt the same way. thanks for the input, real helpful.
last build ran strong for awhile then ...knocked, sounded like a wrist pin? idk yet but just want to get this build right and not have any simple mistakes leading to ultimate failure. again
I suggest you speak in "INCH" since the machine is doubtless a Tobin-Arp or Sunnen machine and is an INCH machine with set up jigs and dial indicators all in INCH.

Asking any automotive type to machine things to a metric dimension, especially one where the clearances are so small is asking for trouble.

And a minimum to set the clearance would be 0.013mm or 0.0006 or "six ten thousandths".
.0006 to .0008 is pretty much industry standard on floating pins---gotta have some place for the oil
__________________
John Vanlandingham/JVAB Imports
Sleezattle WA, USA

--> CALL (206) 431-9696<----

www.rallyrace.net/jvab

www.rallyanarchy.com

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

"When a man tells you that he got rich through hard work, ask him: 'Whose?'"
— Don Marquis
John V, outside agitator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2010, 02:52 AM   #5
Captain Bondo
Exklusiv Zubehör Klub
 
Captain Bondo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Default

I know for whiteblocks, there's is no real numerical clearance specified, the term used is "close-running fit". Basically, if two parts are size-for-size, they won't assemble by hand. A close running fit is just enough clearance that the parts assemble easily by hand without binding, but not loose. It's easier to have demonstated to you than describe with words though unfortunately. It's works out to basically, less than "1 thou", but more than "half a thou".

When you buy new mahles with pins, the pins will be the correct close-running-fit. You can use the amount of resistance of the pin in the piston to gauge how the fit on the rod needs to be. Has to be a new piston/pin of course though.
__________________


-Kenny
(I crushed a 240 with some stuff done to it. Honest.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan View Post
Turbobricks isn't a car forum any more. Its a forum for lame kids.
Captain Bondo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2010, 02:20 PM   #6
burstcurse
Board Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Default

why did you have the rods "resized"? The machine shop can only make them looser than they were with thousands of miles on them.

go to the junk yard and buy 4 used rods and put them in the pin bushing will be tighter/better than what you got.
burstcurse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2010, 11:42 PM   #7
John V, outside agitator
Board Member
 
John V, outside agitator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sleezattle, WA, USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by burstcurse View Post
why did you have the rods "resized"? The machine shop can only make them looser than they were with thousands of miles on them.

go to the junk yard and buy 4 used rods and put them in the pin bushing will be tighter/better than what you got.
Maybe you should go and watch the process---ya know? When they kiss off a little of the mating surface so the big end bore isn't round but more ()--smaller than the finished ID, then they hone it to size...


Or when you don't know something maybe ask things as questions and you won't write gems of wisdom like this you just did,
John V, outside agitator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2010, 12:24 AM   #8
towerymt
the real Towery
 
towerymt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: VA, USA
Default

This looks like a good demonstration as to how rods are resized. Pressing in the new bushing to the small end is not shown, but instead described.

towerymt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2011, 02:07 AM   #9
whitebricks
Board Member
 
whitebricks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: charlotte, nc..../Boone
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by burstcurse View Post
why did you have the rods "resized"? The machine shop can only make them looser than they were with thousands of miles on them.

go to the junk yard and buy 4 used rods and put them in the pin bushing will be tighter/better than what you got.
didnt have the rods resized.

instead i had new bushings pressed into the old rods
and the bushings have to be cut since the bushing will "shrink" when forced into a tight fit. so you have to cut or else the pin wont fit. at all

- now the pins are nice and snug. but still move like butter
whitebricks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2011, 02:13 AM   #10
whitebricks
Board Member
 
whitebricks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: charlotte, nc..../Boone
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post

And a minimum to set the clearance would be 0.013mm or 0.0006 or "six ten thousandths".
.0006 to .0008 is pretty much industry standard on floating pins---gotta have some place for the oil
funny. exactly what my machine guy said when i came back to him. no trouble. just told him we would like it a little tighter and they did just that and turns out that's the size they were honed to but however still felt a little to loose especially after last build ended in what sounds like a wrist pin knock? haven't cracked the old short block open yet don't really want to see anymore of the carnage.
whitebricks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2011, 09:55 PM   #11
John V, outside agitator
Board Member
 
John V, outside agitator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sleezattle, WA, USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whitebricks View Post
funny. exactly what my machine guy said when i came back to him. no trouble. just told him we would like it a little tighter and they did just that and turns out that's the size they were honed to but however still felt a little to loose especially after last build ended in what sounds like a wrist pin knock? haven't cracked the old short block open yet don't really want to see anymore of the carnage.
No problems. And no surprises either. Machine shop guy should know what is common knowledge---within the engine build trade.
John V, outside agitator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2011, 07:53 AM   #12
whitebricks
Board Member
 
whitebricks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: charlotte, nc..../Boone
Default

yeah yeah, but i like to look into things myself not just "take their word" on things, and the floating pin standard doesnt apply to EVERY floating pin assembly. most, but not all. not saying i didnt listen to what he had to say before i asked him to redo the bushings, im not going to believe everything people tell me. i like to get multiple inputs/opinions since things usually work smoother when you do that....
whitebricks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2019, 03:34 PM   #13
Dirty Rick
Board Member
 
Dirty Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Cornholio, OR
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
I suggest you speak in "INCH" since the machine is doubtless a Tobin-Arp or Sunnen machine and is an INCH machine with set up jigs and dial indicators all in INCH.

Asking any automotive type to machine things to a metric dimension, especially one where the clearances are so small is asking for trouble.

And a minimum to set the clearance would be 0.013mm or 0.0006 or "six ten thousandths".
.0006 to .0008 is pretty much industry standard on floating pins---gotta have some place for the oil
Are you set up to rebush rods?

Cost and turn-around time?
__________________
I don't know who I am when I am somebody else.
Dirty Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2019, 03:37 PM   #14
Dirty Rick
Board Member
 
Dirty Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Cornholio, OR
Default

For $50 more than I was just quoted by another shop, I can buy a new set of rods on Ebay!
Dirty Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2019, 03:54 PM   #15
culberro
Ronald Culberbone III
 
culberro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Default

Can you buy the bushings from the dealer? Installing them is pretty easy, but honing is where the $$ is.
__________________
Cult Person. Pissing in your Kool-Aid.
culberro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2019, 12:51 AM   #16
Dirty Rick
Board Member
 
Dirty Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Cornholio, OR
Default

Not finding any bushings anywhere, except 2 weeks away from the mothership.

23mm pins not common to other motors.
Dirty Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2019, 12:10 PM   #17
culberro
Ronald Culberbone III
 
culberro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Rick View Post
Not finding any bushings anywhere, except 2 weeks away from the mothership.

23mm pins not common to other motors.
I couldn't find any as well. Looks like all the usual suppliers are out of stock.

If you need a set ASAP, I have a set of 100k mile 13mm rods sitting on the shelf. Or just go with the ebay rods, and know that they may need to be honed to fit the pins.

You could get a Sunnen rod hone for cheap btw: https://eugene.craigslist.org/tls/d/...878942347.html
culberro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2019, 05:20 PM   #18
Dirty Rick
Board Member
 
Dirty Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Cornholio, OR
Default

The problem with honing rods is the need to keep them square.
You need a fixture, not something you should do by hand. (at least not on my motor)

H beam rods 20#+ boost
Dirty Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2019, 06:35 PM   #19
culberro
Ronald Culberbone III
 
culberro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Rick View Post
The problem with honing rods is the need to keep them square.
You need a fixture, not something you should do by hand. (at least not on my motor)

H beam rods 20#+ boost
It's usually done free hand-ish. There's a rod/dowel with a guide that you use.
You can also totally free hand it, I've done it on multiple rods.

https://youtu.be/5yqsEs8GG0Q?t=57

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBIY-dtcbns

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4h49GFKTEU

https://youtu.be/TX-eFEqAKaY?t=299
culberro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2019, 07:03 PM   #20
John V, outside agitator
Board Member
 
John V, outside agitator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sleezattle, WA, USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Rick View Post
For $50 more than I was just quoted by another shop, I can buy a new set of rods on Ebay!
What were you quoted?
John V, outside agitator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2019, 08:35 PM   #21
Dirty Rick
Board Member
 
Dirty Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Cornholio, OR
Default

$200 + bushings which at this time would have to be made.

My circle track race motor shop wants $15 per rod to install and hone but can't be bothered to work on furrin stuff.

Do you have 23mm bushings in stock?
Dirty Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2019, 11:54 PM   #22
John V, outside agitator
Board Member
 
John V, outside agitator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sleezattle, WA, USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Rick View Post
$200 + bushings which at this time would have to be made.

My circle track race motor shop wants $15 per rod to install and hone but can't be bothered to work on furrin stuff.

Do you have 23mm bushings in stock?
$15 a rod is fair price.. They do Chebby which is .927.. That 23 comes out .9055"
Tell them that..Nine oh Five five one.. Take 2 pins and tell them to shut up a pin is a god damn pin.
Plenty of the baddest Merikuhn V8s have been using 22mm pins and even 20 and The "Honda Rod Journal" on the cranks is old snooze now..
A pin is just a pin.
John V, outside agitator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2019, 04:22 PM   #23
Dirty Rick
Board Member
 
Dirty Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Cornholio, OR
Default

The pins in this motor measure .9046 and fall out of the pistons if turned sidewayz.
The rod I can throw the pin through from across the shop. I was able to get a .0015 feeler started between the pin and the bush.

So even if I tighten the rod bushings the pistons will still be loose, I'm thinking all this $hit gets hung on the wall of shame.
Dirty Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2019, 12:53 AM   #24
John V, outside agitator
Board Member
 
John V, outside agitator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sleezattle, WA, USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Rick View Post
The pins in this motor measure .9046 and fall out of the pistons if turned sidewayz.
The rod I can throw the pin through from across the shop. I was able to get a .0015 feeler started between the pin and the bush.

So even if I tighten the rod bushings the pistons will still be loose, I'm thinking all this $hit gets hung on the wall of shame.
I imagine the bushings right from Volvo are cheap, under $5

And from RockOtter we see:
VOLVO 1990 240 2.3L L4 Engine Piston Pin Bushing
Price
ITM ENGINE COMPONENTS RB4541 Info
(Only 4 Remaining)
$4.41
get some bushings, rebuild..Make a mandrel for the pressing in.. Nylon
John V, outside agitator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2019, 01:06 AM   #25
Dirty Rick
Board Member
 
Dirty Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Cornholio, OR
Default

What are the chances that these no_name H beams use a standard Volvo bushing?

I'll make a tool and push a bushing out to check the OD.

Is the OEM bushing od listed somewhere?
Dirty Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:22 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.