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Old 02-28-2017, 09:24 PM   #26
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What, no dry sump?
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Old 02-28-2017, 09:27 PM   #27
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So what's the veredict for us mere mortals? Shim the m181 pressure relief spring?
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Old 02-28-2017, 10:12 PM   #28
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I didn't even realize this was a problem. I just installed my pump and transfer tube a week ago. I also run the ARP mains. I didn't have any problem installing it. But I just went down and checked. Sure as **** it's touching.

What have others done in this situation? Grind down the stud slightly?

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The next challenge was dealing with the interference between the stock oil transfer tube and the ARP mainstuds, the main studs really wanted to occupy the some space.
Also I was nervous about the stories of the o-rings popping out...

I figured the best thing was to make a new oil transfer tube that solved those problems(hopefully).

I kinda' did it the hard way, started out drawing the stock oil tube in CAD.
3D printed the stock tube model in SLS nylon, then carved away the problem area.



After I had some reference models, I increased the tube inner diameter to match the inner oil passage diameters(Block and Pump), and designed new fittings with redundant o-rings to ensure a better seal into the pump and block. Then another SLS print to check fit.



When I was happy with the new tube and fitting design, I then fabricated the tube and fittings from seamless steel tube and round stock, adding an addition support bracket to ensure that the tube stays in place.
TIG brazing was used for the welding process followed up with a little black oxide coating.
You can see the progression here.







Overall, I feel good about the new transfer tube.
-Better flow
-Redundant o-rings
-Support bracket to limit movement
-Clears Main Studs

In the future, it would be nice to have the tube mandrel bent and maybe get better at TIG brazing. But I think it should work as intended.
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Old 02-28-2017, 10:15 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Harlard View Post
So what's the veredict for us mere mortals? Dhim the m181 pressure relief spring?
Eye Pea Dhee B20 hoch druck feder, natürlisch...verstäts?
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Old 02-28-2017, 10:16 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Stiggy Pop View Post
What, no dry sump?
This is what I've been thinking all along.
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Old 02-28-2017, 10:46 PM   #31
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Wow!

Can we see a picture of your engine compartment and shop space???
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Old 03-01-2017, 12:40 AM   #32
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Eye Pea Dhee B20 hoch druck feder, natürlisch...verstäts?
I wasn't aware that the B20 racing dealio worked on B230s?
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Old 03-01-2017, 01:59 AM   #33
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I wasn't aware that the B20 racing dealio worked on B230s?
I just put the IPD spring in my M181.
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Old 03-01-2017, 03:46 AM   #34
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I wasn't aware that the B20 racing dealio worked on B230s?
Neither are the Ami experts...
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Old 03-01-2017, 06:05 AM   #35
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Mate, the pick up tube solution is PERFECT. I'm in love. If you won't make another one, I'm fully going to steal the idea and do it myself. Any CAD files you're willing to share gladly accepted. And nice to know now up front that there's a clearance issue as I've got those same studs/nuts/washers on the way for my 16vt build.

I'm not convinced I like your pick up scoop, though. I mean, it's a beautiful thing, for sure, but under G loads that pull the oil toward the blocked side this will actually encourage air to be sucked in rather than oil that would otherwise be available to the pump. If you don't plan on tracking the car it's a non-issue. Me? I love tracks, and kiwi roads that are better than any track bar the nur.

Are you planning to up the capacity of the sump to go with this top-notch pump? I am. :-)
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Old 03-01-2017, 02:14 PM   #36
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What happens if/when the coating flakes off the pump parts? Winds up in the filter I guess/we hope/think?
Probably extends oil pump life well enough...no point buying a new pump anyway.
Do the really need more pressure or more low RPM flow/pressure? Seems to hit 5bar with the stock spring OK?
I wasn't crazy about the IPD spring...

Never really liked the M181 pump for the volvo.
Had better luck just picking later model OE pumps that weren't worn out.

Sell pipe and pickup and just coat a used pump?

It was always a head scratcher for me why if they went to all the trouble to neatly chamfer and bore those holes in pump/block they couldn't be bothered to stick some kind of metal-metal brake line style connection on that stupid transfer pipe instead of those miserable hooptie o-rings.

That solution looks decent too. 2 o-rings that fit tight and a nice brace to hold that stupid pipe in place with stops instead of just 2 rubber square edge soft sealing rings you hope do the job.

Can you get the pan out with the engine in the car with that pickup? Are you going to do some hinged baffles that let oil in, but not out in the sump near the pickup so it doesn't all slosh up the side?
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Old 03-01-2017, 02:30 PM   #37
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Neither are the Ami experts...
I'm having a hard time understading you, JVL...
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Old 03-01-2017, 03:48 PM   #38
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Thanks for the feedback guys,
Positive or negative, it gets me thinking about my choices.
I should say that all this is an ongoing experiment and subject to changes.

So, top down..

-The Intake Scoop design is likely the least valuable item on my pump, it's the result of a bit of thinking and "mental simulation" on oil control in the pan. My observation is that the pickup location is crammed into the front, passenger side corner of the pan. I'm imagining it sucking that corner dry upon hard acceleration, so limiting the ability to pull from the corner and more from the center of the pan would be maybe a bit better, I have a few other designs to try in the future. Also, not sure if the pan can be removed in-car yet..

-The Pan will get a kick-out on the passenger's side to add about a quart or more capacity and put more oil around the pickup. Also adding another baffle and possibly a swinging door.

-Abradable Coating, I had concerns about particles flaking off also, but when it was explained that the coating is just a thicker version of piston skirt coatings and a proven process for oil pumps(aircraft), I felt better about it. We'll see though. Worst case is that it flakes off and ends up in the filter. Because the applied thickness is controlled, it seems a great way to tighten up used pumps as well.

-Relief Spring, I'm probably bucking convention here, but I think the stock spring is fine for my application, I've tried to increase the efficiency of the pump and in turn produce slightly higher line pressures/volume at lower RPM, Why would I care about lower RPM efficiency? I think the load on the bearings is greater at lower RPM's under high-load acceleration, thus I want more pressure/flow, earlier. Plus, if the pump can do this while using less parasitic HP, all the better. Ultimately, the relief spring just limits the peak pressure in the system IMHO.

-Transfer Tube, Lot's of ways to skin this cat, O-ring support rings on stock tube, modify stock tube and/or main stud bolt for clearance. Because I wanted to reduce any possible restriction and turbulent flow, I opted to increase the transfer tube ID, Hard to do that without redesigning the fittings as well. There was room to add a second o-ring.. o-rings are cheap!

-There is no reason why you couldn't do the same type of modifications to the Melling, In fact, the next engine I build will likely use a Melling and similar mods, with more consideration towards cost/value.

-Dry sump system, $$$$. Way more than what I've spent on this overkill wet sump system. Remote wet-sump pump? Hmmm...
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Old 03-01-2017, 04:38 PM   #39
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Your o-ring solution seems a good one.
Your pipe is held in place with a bracket and metal stops with 2 thin (probably Viton?) o-rings that squish down into their grooves flush with a pipe that is constrained by the bracket and stops.
Threading/all metal probably isn't necessary for the life of the o-rings/between engine rebuilds.

One problem I've noticed is that all pipes fit a little different...tooling drift?
Can't be worse than being held in place by two rubber o-rings with a skinny pipe.
But might be a problem/not exactly one size fits all.
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Old 03-01-2017, 07:18 PM   #40
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I'm having a hard time understading you, JVL...
I can 'splain better on phone where voice intonation gives more meaning...
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Old 03-01-2017, 07:19 PM   #41
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I can 'splain better on phone where voice intonation gives more meaning...
I'll clear a couple hours from my schedule later this week
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Old 03-01-2017, 09:11 PM   #42
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Your o-ring solution seems a good one.
Your pipe is held in place with a bracket and metal stops with 2 thin (probably Viton?) o-rings that squish down into their grooves flush with a pipe that is constrained by the bracket and stops.
Threading/all metal probably isn't necessary for the life of the o-rings/between engine rebuilds.

One problem I've noticed is that all pipes fit a little different...tooling drift?
Can't be worse than being held in place by two rubber o-rings with a skinny pipe.
But might be a problem/not exactly one size fits all.
It was challenging to build the pipe to fit just right, I had to insert the fittings into the pump and block, then tack weld the pipe to the fittings to preserve alignment, then remove the pipe for finish welding. The close fit of the fittings don't leave much room for compliance... I bet the pipe would stay in fine without the bracket. In the future, I might try to add more clearance.

So the stock tubes tend to vary in fitment a bit? Wonder if it's the tube or the block/oil pump geometry that varies?
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Old 03-01-2017, 11:04 PM   #43
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I keep a big box of tubes from fallen engines (somewhere if I can find it again). I've noticed slight variation in stock pipes but don't have a laboratory in my back pocket to take samples of a few hundred or thousand engines to determine how consistent their measurements are. Potential obstacle if one wished to manufacture a little run of these.
Most ~1990+ pipes from rear thrust b230s with the tall gear oil pumps don't seem to vary a whole lot, to the extent I can make out any pattern.
I had to use a different pipe a few times when swapping pumps into earlier motors, but again I'm not entirely sure if it's just pipes that vary slightly in tolerance and/or pump/engines too.
I also have just rooted through the pipes and found pipes that fit a little better than the one installed in the engine (likely) originally.

Agreed that your hand fitted pipe would probably stay in place fine without the bracket. But the bracket is a nice touch...why allow it to possibly vibrate or lack support in any direction? Or possibly allow that metal flange to vibrate against the thin cast aluminum of the pump unconstrained? In fact, maybe there should be no flange on the pump side? Without a proper brace (or maybe it's not an issue at all), I wonder if the metal flanges you have on that pipe resting against the pretty thin cast aluminum housing of the pump could potentially be an issue? One good thing about the pipe "floating" on the rubber o-rings on both ends is potential for cracking the oil pump around that boring into the thinly cast oil pump aluminum case is unlikely. Thoughts? Maybe the bracket could be "clamped" to the pipe, allowing the pipe to telescope, and allowing the end user/installer to avoid having to weld? Maybe If it could be offered with the brace and pipe and the end user/installer welds brace to pipe and stop washers themselves, but the basic pipe shape is already there with a couple small o-ring grooves in it, but allows for final setting depth to be determined by the installer to allow for slight variations in blocks/pumps? Or figure out where the variation is dimensionally exactly...if its just pipes, or pumps and/or blocks too?

I had problems with the ipd spring. And it didn't really seem to solve the one problem I wanted it to; consistent (especially hot) lower to mid RPM oil pressure.
I suspect your zero clearance late tall gear less flow restricted pump likely does: more efficient pumping at lower rpms, more consistent pressure and supply in all conditions all without reinventing or replacing the existing pump/sump or buying expensive parts or doing permanent alteration to a specific block/pump (this can in theory be bolted on and carried over to any SOHC red engine). Labor time and fab seems significant, however.

All the ipd spring seemed to do was increase the maximum pressure a little dangerously and make the pressure less consistent. Not really what I wanted. Didn't care for it. Make sure nothing is binding or scored or worn in a stock late pump and/or coat it as you did and leave the spring alone imo.

This is one little niggling problem area of a basically good simple SOHC red engine that always bothered me; 1 small kinked pipe floating around on two flimsy square edged o-rings with a small oil pickup and smooth sump oil can easily slide up the side of can ruin all the fun quickly in an unlucky moment. Or just cause premature wear to the pump and/or expensive engine parts due to the above slowly by running around on less than optimal hot low rpm pressure that the driver doesn't/can't easily notice the subtle signs of immediately.

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Old 03-02-2017, 06:36 AM   #44
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-The Intake Scoop design is likely the least valuable item on my pump, it's the result of a bit of thinking and "mental simulation" on oil control in the pan. My observation is that the pickup location is crammed into the front, passenger side corner of the pan. I'm imagining it sucking that corner dry upon hard acceleration, so limiting the ability to pull from the corner and more from the center of the pan would be maybe a bit better, I have a few other designs to try in the future. Also, not sure if the pan can be removed in-car yet..

-The Pan will get a kick-out on the passenger's side to add about a quart or more capacity and put more oil around the pickup. Also adding another baffle and possibly a swinging door.
Every rear-sumped inline engine I've thrashed down a good road has had the oil light come on under hard braking, and never under hard acceleration, because under brakes you can pull 1G+ and under acceleration if you can approach 1G it's not for very long and the oil naturally falls into the rear of the sump no worries. The factory "top plate" arrangement is about as good as you can do, and the place to add volume is below that plate in every direction you can. I built an "ultimate wet sump" years ago, and it worked well. Might post a pic or three for you another day. No trap doors, though. Total waste of time IMO. Top plates are the winner. Just imagine a roasting tray of liquid and trying to contain it, the best job is done by a lid with a hole in the middle so only some of it "falls out" in any axis of load/tilt.

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-Relief Spring, I'm probably bucking convention here, but I think the stock spring is fine for my application, I've tried to increase the efficiency of the pump and in turn produce slightly higher line pressures/volume at lower RPM, Why would I care about lower RPM efficiency? I think the load on the bearings is greater at lower RPM's under high-load acceleration, thus I want more pressure/flow, earlier. Plus, if the pump can do this while using less parasitic HP, all the better. Ultimately, the relief spring just limits the peak pressure in the system IMHO.
This is not your opinion, this is fact The only thing it can do is raise peak oil pressure if/when it's being reduced by relief action due to high RPM or low temperature. Good with boost in the former case, and bad with oil filter burst risk in the latter case. Me, I live somewhere temperate, never below 0C, and I plan some serious boost, so more pressure up there is welcome, for me.

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-Dry sump system, $$$$. Way more than what I've spent on this overkill wet sump system. Remote wet-sump pump? Hmmm...
Dry sump servers a number of purposes, but chief among them is circuit use with high G-loads. Wet sumps, of any design, can never perform well in any reasonable packaging. They can perform well enough, if you're careful and do a good job, but they're still second best above 1G. If you're not abusing your car under brakes/through corners in a serious fashion, dry sumps are more or less a waste of time, too. +1 on not dry sumping a street car.
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Old 03-02-2017, 06:52 AM   #45
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Very neat work mate, very neat.

Cranking up the oil pressure is not meant only for high end race cars. More pressure means for flow, thus better heat dissipation for the bearings.

Do you mind me asking where did you buy the wiseco pistons, and the exact reference please ? I can't find it. Thank you very much.
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Old 03-02-2017, 05:00 PM   #46
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I used a high pressure Melling on a Chevy motor I put in a van once. It blew seals and was a disaster. A top drag race guy some years ago whose name I cannot recall, Pro-stock iirc, said he used 30 psi.
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Old 03-02-2017, 05:10 PM   #47
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I used a high pressure Melling on a Chevy motor I put in a van once. It blew seals and was a disaster. A top drag race guy some years ago whose name I cannot recall, Pro-stock iirc, said he used 30 psi.

Jeeze.
You do know that on any purpose built drag motor that they have probably opened up main bearing clearence to .003 and rods to min .002 dontcha?

---and the industry standard for SBC and SBF which I've heard here and in distant furrin places applied to MANY motors is "10 psi per 1000 anticipated rom and 1 (another 10) to grow on."

And I don't know it helps anybody to just chat casually about stuff like that.."some guy said 30 psi" ...I mean is that a suggestion to TBers to run 30psi?
I doan git it
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Old 03-03-2017, 03:47 AM   #48
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The factory "top plate" arrangement is about as good as you can do, and the place to add volume is below that plate in every direction you can.
Not all oil pans are created equal. Some years the "top plate" is just spot welded in a few places. Under high G's like a track car sees the oil runs out the sides between the top plate and the pan. We weld all of those up with a continuous bead or find the better year pans.
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Old 03-03-2017, 03:17 PM   #49
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I just put the IPD spring in my M181.
Why?

For O rings, I either put a regular round O ring behind the factory square section to stop it blowing out when cold OR use a trio of regular O rings each end.

Why is there a big dent in the original pipe?

I like to put a radius into the bottom of driven slot too. Forget lockwire too, use Loctite.
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Old 03-03-2017, 03:41 PM   #50
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---and the industry standard for SBC and SBF which I've heard here and in distant furrin places applied to MANY motors is "10 psi per 1000 anticipated rom and 1 (another 10) to grow on."
Industry standard? I read that rubbish along with Smokey Yunick's long rod bs back in the '80's .An SBC does not need 10psi/1000rpm & no amount of pressure will help a Clevo without some restrictors fitted in the right places.
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