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ring end gap - RSI wiseco's

redblockpowered said:
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

I like this a lot.
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I don't have any evidence for or against the efficacy of what this guy is writing but holy cow that page is absolutely packed with conjecture. Nary a verifiable or cited statement in sight. As a professional skeptic I get real nervous when someone unequivocally states "THIS IS HOW IT IS" and only backs it up with anecdotal or circumstantial evidence.
 
I think I went widest possibly .028 is sticking in my head with Volvo B23ET factory pistons and rings. My machinist recommended ATF as well. There's some blow by at 25-26psi, but I don't think there couldn't be. It doesn't smoke at idle or consume much oil. The 2ZZ Toyota motor I rebuilt definitely burns some oil but that's because I couldn't prep the ceramic composite cylinder liners I believe.
 
Do not try to run a tight ring end gap, Boost creates more heat than NA.
That heat will cause the ring to expand more than NA.
If the ring gap is not large enough the rings can grip the cylinder tight enough to remove the top of the piston.

Play with the end gap when you are class racing and someone else is running a tighter gap and beating you.
Until then Err on the large side.....
 
In my experience if you re-use the piston rings out of a block that you got from some guy's backyard with ~.045 end gaps and then put over 30k miles on it, it might smoke a little on decel. Something to be aware of.
 
Alex Buchka said:
I don't have any evidence for or against the efficacy of what this guy is writing but holy cow that page is absolutely packed with conjecture. Nary a verifiable or cited statement in sight. As a professional skeptic I get real nervous when someone unequivocally states "THIS IS HOW IT IS" and only backs it up with anecdotal or circumstantial evidence.
Click to expand...

Oops - I meant I was amused by the tone/old internet feel of the site. Don't know how much I'd trust what this guy says.

Engine break-in seems a lot like when audiophiles talk about cable burn-in and the like.
 
Alex Buchka said:
I don't have any evidence for or against the efficacy of what this guy is writing but holy cow that page is absolutely packed with conjecture. Nary a verifiable or cited statement in sight. As a professional skeptic I get real nervous when someone unequivocally states "THIS IS HOW IT IS" and only backs it up with anecdotal or circumstantial evidence.
Click to expand...

I can dig up my old mk2 VW service manuals, they have a similar break-in procedure. Basically warm up the engine, then go drive it up a hill with varying degrees of load and rpm sweeps.

I wouldn't trust someone on the internet with a site like that, for many reasons...

redblockpowered said:
Oops - I meant I was amused by the tone/old internet feel of the site. Don't know how much I'd trust what this guy says.

Engine break-in seems a lot like when audiophiles talk about cable burn-in and the like.
Click to expand...

I appreciated the 00's flashback, thanks!
 
culberro said:
Called the manufacture and they recommended the lightest oil possible... or to put the rings in dry :omg:
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I was given the same recommendation by a machine shop that built all kinds of high performance engines as far as breaking in the moly rings on a 365 Cadillac engine I had them do the machine work on,install the pistons/rings dry. I was too chicken. I very lightly oiled the skirts of the pistons.
 
culberro said:
I can dig up my old mk2 VW service manuals, they have a similar break-in procedure. Basically warm up the engine, then go drive it up a hill with varying degrees of load and rpm sweeps.

I wouldn't trust someone on the internet with a site like that, for many reasons...



I appreciated the 00's flashback, thanks!
Click to expand...

+1
So thinking of re-ringing and glaze breaking but not for boost, purely for skinny rod hooptie hipermiling & coating the pistons, but not going as far as a proper torque plate align hone or full rebuild on an engine that?s ?fine? (in the sense that it doesn?t use oil or have a bunch of blowby huffing out the crankcase vent tube, noise or low oil pressure , anyway, but who knows? :lol:) ?

If it were possible to get the used engine running tip top same cam & all on known engine management, what?s best break in practices for a driver?
The Volvo factory dyno seems to just load it up in 4th and simulate driving up a hill/pre heated or warm lean burning engine for a few minutes as did the break in engine dyno room when I had Larsen & King do an engine sometime back?

Thoughts? I?m too chicken & maybe too unscientifically superstitious? :lol: & defer to my betters / the factory on this?
?having seen a bunch of what you describe (someone starts the thing cold & nice & rich and idles it on thick snot oil with plenty of fuel) winding up with an engine they had spent a bunch of $$$ and time R&Ring / disturbing or deviating from bone stock that has a bunch of blowby & hating life / not really having anything that is in essence a whole lot better the worn out motor (some seals, cleaner & new bearings/shiny bits :???: :lol: :-()?I don?t wanna wind up like that ?why?d I begin this journey considering the results & resources invested? sorta deal?
 
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The machine shop recommended .006" per inch and said I'd be good to go so we're rolling with it (I think they set it as such while I was debating an answer actually).

Block is assembled and ready for pickup! It has been there since December 4th so I'm excited... maybe I'll have my head back from them in August?
 
Ohh found the other part to those wisco's from RSI. I had the 16v turbo ones.

THIS IS HOW IT IS WISCRACKO SAYS TO DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!! Butt what do they know, they only sell the crud. I am sure your machine shop did you right. Mine had these papers and went from these instructions when he put mine together....

Only Harry will find out, it's what he does.. He has the still never run motor now.



 
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sbabbs said:
Ohh found the other part to those wisco's from RSI. I had the 16v turbo ones.

THIS IS HOW WISCRACKO SAYS TO DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!! Butt what do they know, they only sell the crud.
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That's a good chart!
Now in text form:
  • Dirt, ATV, PWC, Snow: Top Ring: 0.0040" 2nd Ring: 0.0050"
  • High-Performance Street/Strip: Top Ring: 0.0045" 2nd Ring: 0.0055"
  • Moderate Street Turbo/Nitrous: Top Ring: 0.0050" 2nd Ring: 0.0055"
  • Late Model Stock (WTF is this even?): Top Ring: 0.0050" 2nd Ring: 0.0055"
  • Circle track, Drag Race NA: Top Ring: 0.0055" 2nd Ring: 0.0060"
  • Blown/Turbo Race: Top Ring: 0.0065" 2nd Ring: 0.0070"
  • Nitrous Race: Top Ring: 0.0070" 2nd Ring: 0.0075"
 
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Okay uploaded the pics of the ring gap data to tbricks server I guess I should upload that other one also so if imagur goes down it will always be on tbricks server forever one could hope. 16v turbo wiscos with longer rod and shorter skirt piston then stock with 2.5L crank.
 

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picked up the short block today and had a long chat about break-in. The owner said when he's running in cams and rings he does it basically like this:

- they coat the cylinder walls, ringlands and skirts with marvel mystery oil for initial oiling.
- basics. make sure all running systems are good and there's no air pockets in the cooling system
- if he can he uses heating elements to pre-heat fluids, if you can prime the oil system great.
- start the engine and let it get some temperature in it at a high-idle type of rpm.
- raise the rpm and vary it, not overly slowly but with a little bit of snap to it to build cylinder pressure.
- circle track engines he'll do 2-3k, my engine he said maybe more like 2200.
- do that like 10 times then let it settle back in, maybe more around 1500rpm.
- he does it for 30-35 minutes on the engine dyno, said you don't need to spend that much time in the garage.
- street drive it, New England backroad driving like a sane person is the basic prescription. No more than a few pounds of boost.
- He said for the finish he put on my bores he'd drive like that for 1000-1500 miles before hammering down! This was a big surprise to me... I haven't driven 1500 miles in 4 years. His logic is he really wants to make sure the rings are settled before putting the pressure on them.

We talked a lot about oil. They used to use the Driven BR30 I've used until they noticed a difference in the oil and found it had gone from ~1200ppm zinc to ~2200ppm. They did a few engines on the dyno and didn't think they seated as well as they should have, one they had to tear down and refinish. He said that amount of zinc is great for the cam but not for the rings, he was also soured by Driven not publishing a TSB on it. They use Valvoline VR1 now which is more like 1000ppm and he's never had a problem with it.

I bought 8 quarts of BR30 now I'm not sure what I wanna use...
 
The Volvo break in dyno rig it looked like they put the cars on rollers with preheated fluids and if manual trans spun it up gently in 4th to ~1200/1500rpm, turned the ignition key on within 15 seconds/checked the gauges & simulated driving uphill immediately over 1-5 mins to bed the rings in and changed the oil?

Obviously, we have more time than money & aren?t working at production speed and can torque plate hone or bed the rings in a little less ?abruptly? over slightly more time then just crank it up to speed on the rollers/build hot oil pressure and drive it at a simulated uphilll but can only allocate 1-5mins per car to break them in leaving the factory?
We can probably allocate 20 mins or an oil change or two?

The diesel heads use a 12v glow plug to cycle on and off for coolant or oil heat or fuel heat pretty effectively (veggie, bio or just cold weather, generally?).

Obviously, most of us can?t afford a laboratory engine dyno room to clean room standards (maybe time-share access to one at best? :lol:) ?
 
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