• Hello Guest, welcome to the initial stages of our new platform!
    You can find some additional information about where we are in the process of migrating the board and setting up our new software here

    Thank you for being a part of our community!

B6304+t Budget Build:

9

955IsAlive

New member
Joined
Apr 22, 2018
Location
MN
'97 965. I have modest goals, looking for a boost setup that comes on early, but isn't restrictive for the motor. Say 260-280 to begin with on gas. Once I have a baseline of how the car bechaves, I'll see how far I can take it with E85. Seems like the rods etc can hold that kind of power.

Stock ECU, stock hardware. I'm not oblivious to the limits of those. Compensate with adjustable rising rate FPR, MAF (Sensor, housing or both).

With that in mind.. Here's where I'm at.

I'm on motronic 4.4
I'll run catless most likely.
T3/T4 exhaust manifold is on the way. Hoping there's room for the turbo to clear the head.
Turbo .63 A/R 50 trim, Internal wastegate
440cc green injectors if I can make them work on gas at first. Otherwise 329cc from a T6.
EBC (Has electronic boost sensor too, so that's cool)
AFR APSX D2 Digital Wideband
Adjustable rising rate FPR
CBV stock from a T6
Intercooler maybe start with a 940 when it's on low boost, move to NPR after.


Looking for recommendations on:

General feedback (Aside from rah rah, bad idea, rah rah drop a T6 in it, rah rah LS swap it.)

Fuel pump (Something inexpensive that fits and will flow enough E85 for say 400HP)

Getting it to idle idle without being PIG rich. The T6 injectors look like they would be out of adjutment range with stock ECU. Wondering if anyone has ideas on what MAF or housing I could start with. Otherwise, I'll just experiment with different things and report back with where I end up.

Oil feed for turbo, Seems like I'll have to run a long feed line from the other side of the block? Drain looks like I can use the stock whiteblock hole by drilling that out.
 
Having been turboing stuff for a couple decades now, I'm going to say you'll hate the rising rate FPR in the end. It'll work, but it does a number on your fuel pump, especially if the rising rate ratio is set high.

The S80 MAF is ~3", so I don't think you can use that. The M1.8 MAF I have from my B6304 is 3", so I bet the M4.4 is the same.
 
Is it that the fuel curve is all over the place with the rising rate? Good to know on pump thanks for that. In one setup I worked out a rising rate of 4:1 would be needed to stop it dumping a ton of fuel at idle.
The stock MAF measures 2.75 internally I think? so basically a 3". Maybe it'll work, or maybe i'll have to tweak the voltage some to get the idle under control. Again not ideal, but if it works "good enough".

I see you have Poi shift
 
Well, the S80 apparently measures 3" internally, so maybe you can start with that and the T6 injectors and see what happens. A 1:4 ratio means that under boost (and only under boost), the fuel pressure rises 4 psi per 1psi of boost. So a fuel pump that puts out a steady 43.5 psi at cruise or WOT will suddenly have to put out an extra 20 psi of fuel pressure at only 5 pounds of boost. The pressure itself might not be too big of an issue, but the extra flow is going to be pretty taxing on an old stock pump. A fresh pump is a definite recommendation.

A RRFPR basically has two modes of operation: decent at idle/cruise, and pig rich under any boost. It'll work, but it will definitely be getting fuel, lol. Ignition timing is a HUGE factor at this point, since you'll be relying on the knock sensors to pull timing to keep the engine together. This means that there WILL be detonation, it's unavoidable considering the stock maps come close to 25* of timing at WOT and it's a 10.7:1 engine you're forcing air into. That's not optimal, since it's better to not have detonation at all, but if you run the highest octane you can find, and have a good intercooler, it might not protest too much.

Yep, I built a Poi-shift for my B6304/AW30-40 swap, since my 244 was auto anyway and I didn't want to have to source the manual components. It's hilariously awesome to drive an auto in full manual, with VERY tight shifts.
 
Oh for the rising rate at 4:1 I won't be on stock pump. From what I read in VADIS the stock pump rated for 80lb/hr which I worked out at 230HP on gas. Pretty weak.
Do you have a recommendation for a pump that would drop into the 960. When I was looking, it seemed like the (physical) sized were very similar between them.

Fuel wise, I'll be blending E85 and 91non oxy to at least keep the octane up and avoid holing the pistons. Figuring out the AFR might be a challenge with the blend though. I can get 93 oxy close by too.

The manual shift is interesting. Not a fan of the stock shift points.
 
Last edited:
I don't have a tried-and-true pump recommendation, seeing as how I've never actually seen a 960 pump assembly :(. I'm using a fuel pump from a Ford pickup with the V10 triton engine in my 240, and it allegedly flows 255lph, like a Walbro aftermarket pump. It's very small too, so it was an easy fit into the 240 in-tank pump hanger. I'd say it could handle the fueling, but I have nothing to back that claim up in regards to a B6+T. I will eventually be boosting mine, but not for a year or so.

It DID handle the fueling of my B21+T quite well, and others here have used it as well. An easy upgrade is to install a peformance inline pump, while leaving the stock in-tank pump in place. The in-tank pump will feed the performance pump, and offer a bit of redundancy in the event of a failure.

The in-tank pump I'm using: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=211264
 
Good stock fuel pump is enough for those numbers with E85. Maybe even further.
Had a stock in V90 with 275hp 4.6 2V with room to have it properly rich. 965 with 2.5 and HX40 gave 269whp on another dyno and friends 2.5 965 with HX35 has around the same. But naturally you should upgrade the pump if you're going for bigger numbers.

Stock pressure regulator is also good enough. I've always used stock ones, no matter the power level.
 
Last edited:
Broke4speed said:
Yep, I built a Poi-shift for my B6304/AW30-40 swap, since my 244 was auto anyway and I didn't want to have to source the manual components. It's hilariously awesome to drive an auto in full manual, with VERY tight shifts.
Click to expand...

:rockon:

I'd seriously recommend a standalone...just seems like it would be less of a hassle in the long run. Put it together, tune it once, drive it forever, ya know?
 
Broke4speed said:
Stock pressure regulator is also good enough. I've always used stock ones, no matter the power level.
Click to expand...

My main reason for the rising rate was to give myself room to drop the pressure under idle with bigger injectors in case I can't get it somewhere in adaptation for the ECU.

I have an e39 540 and a 2.5t XC90 I guess I could try the MAF from those and see how the ECU\MAF voltage behaves at idle. Anything under 1.2V at idle throws a code ECU from what I read in VADIS.

The stock FPR is 1:1 so that's nice.

What's up with the four pin MAF in the 960... seems to be an odball connection? I've seen three and five pins and adapter cables for those..

But nothing for a four pin.

Standalone would be nice. But between cost, time to wire and time to tune I'd never get this done. Someday though.

Thanks for the info on the pump, sounds like it will be fine to start off.
 
955IsAlive said:
My main reason for the rising rate was to give myself room to drop the pressure under idle with bigger injectors in case I can't get it somewhere in adaptation for the ECU.
Click to expand...
How big injectors are you thinking of? Even LH2.4 can be tuned for pretty big injectors and it's not sequential like Motronic 4.4.

As an example I have 1200cc injectors in three banks with Megasquirt, so 2 per bank are injecting at the same time. I can make it as lean as I want with E85. With sequential I could go for much bigger injectors and still be able to make it lean on idle.
 
Lankku said:
How big injectors are you thinking of? Even LH2.4 can be tuned for pretty big injectors and it's not sequential like Motronic 4.4.
Click to expand...

Remember I'm on stock programming, I like to live dangerously.
Initially I think I'll run T6 injectors which are 329cc (31.4lb/hr). That way I won't be too tempted to run too much boost.

My thought is that (napkin math here) the 329cc flow more than 25% more than the stock 208cc. Since the adaptation range is seemingly 25%, I don't think I will be able to get the duty cycle low enough without either lowering fuel pressure at idle, or lowering the the MAF signal to the ECU to an acceptable level in some way, without going below the 1.2V minimum it expects at idle.

So goes the theory, in practice.... we'll see. Maybe it won't be too bad.
 
In that case T6 injectors and depending on things 0.5-1bar more fuel pressure works with E85. Cold starts might need a couple short cranks after adaptation sets.
 
Exciting.... Well the exhaust manifold should arrive soon. I want to size that up and make sure the turbo clears the head before I get in too deep.
Actually, I'm already in deep with how much time I've spent so far....

This is what's on the way

https://amzn.to/2Tm0HEf
 
955IsAlive said:
Exciting.... Well the exhaust manifold should arrive soon. I want to size that up and make sure the turbo clears the head before I get in too deep.
Actually, I'm already in deep with how much time I've spent so far....

This is what's on the way

https://amzn.to/2Tm0HEf
Click to expand...

its not going to. your best best is a y-pipe from the stock manifolds.
 
955IsAlive said:
****

Maybe I can space it up some with a plate.. Assuming there's enough clearance above the hood.
Click to expand...

if theres not space under the hood just cut it. this doesnt seem like one of those "do it right or not at all" builds. just get it working, and imo turbos sticking out of hoods is sexy.
 
955IsAlive said:
****

Maybe I can space it up some with a plate.. Assuming there's enough clearance above the hood.
Click to expand...

uh, its made to be a bottom mount manifold on the BMWs. Think about the shape of the turbo trying to use it top mount.
 
I thought the manifold I picked could go either way. Oh well, lesson learned.

Hood cut would be funny, but I need this to pass WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor). She likes turbo, just not sticking out the hood. I pitched this +t as an exhaust leak repair. Which it is, damn thing has the ****tiest welds ever before the cat.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top