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rear radiator

G

ghettobrick

New member
Joined
Oct 7, 2003
Location
Ontario, Canada
Does anyone have any info or pictures of a rear radiator steup in a 240? It would be in a car that will be used for ice racing, and is normally run for about 15 to 20 minutes at a time in below freezing temperatures. Speeds are between 30-90kph on track. I've seen a couple not so great pictures from some Swedish folkrace/rallycross cars, but no real solid info on successful ones. Seems to be enough cars that are doing it, so there must be some reason. Crash protection and little more weight over the rear wheels are the benefits that i am seeing, but am a little worried about sufficient airflow. Any tips or ticks in general, or real world experience involving jamming the rad in the trunk would be great.
 
I don't think that the radiator in the rear would be enough weight to make a difference. Full of coolant it weight what..10 pounds?

15-20 minutes with wot pulls would be enough to overheat the car, regardless of outside temperature, unless you had an electric fan on the radiator or some way of directing airflow.
 
ghettobrick said:
Does anyone have any info or pictures of a rear radiator steup in a 240? It would be in a car that will be used for ice racing, and is normally run for about 15 to 20 minutes at a time in below freezing temperatures. Speeds are between 30-90kph on track. I've seen a couple not so great pictures from some Swedish folkrace/rallycross cars, but no real solid info on successful ones. Seems to be enough cars that are doing it, so there must be some reason. Crash protection and little more weight over the rear wheels are the benefits that i am seeing, but am a little worried about sufficient airflow. Any tips or ticks in general, or real world experience involving jamming the rad in the trunk would be great.
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All about protection. Mount the rad on the underside of the trunk lid, 2 nice fans below.
QAir gotta get in in order to get blown out, think of that.
 
Crash protection would be great, but it's going to be significantly heavier than mounting the thing up front. You'd need to fill 20+ feet of radiator hose, instead of 5 or so feet with a standard setup. That's quite a bit of weight in coolant alone, to say nothing of the hose itself, the mounting, the ducting, the fans, etc. You'd also have to figure out how to route all those coolant lines: you probably can't run them through the cabin for safety/rules reasons, but you don't want them under the car either.

If I were you, I'd move the radiator as far back as possible within the engine bay and build some braces in front of it. The front end could probably use some stiffening anyway. If you were really concerned, you could mount it so it over the engine and pull air through a hole in the hood, but I doubt it would be worth the effort.

Overall, it would be heavier and much more complex, the weight won't really be distributed any better, and you could get the same crash protection benefits with a much simpler setup. On the other hand, it would be pretty cool.
 
Fjergus said:
Crash protection would be great, but it's going to be significantly heavier than mounting the thing up front. You'd need to fill 20+ feet of radiator hose, instead of 5 or so feet with a standard setup. That's quite a bit of weight in coolant alone, to say nothing of the hose itself, the mounting, the ducting, the fans, etc. You'd also have to figure out how to route all those coolant lines: you probably can't run them through the cabin for safety/rules reasons, but you don't want them under the car either.

If I were you, I'd move the radiator as far back as possible within the engine bay and build some braces in front of it. The front end could probably use some stiffening anyway. If you were really concerned, you could mount it so it over the engine and pull air through a hole in the hood, but I doubt it would be worth the effort.

Overall, it would be heavier and much more complex, the weight won't really be distributed any better, and you could get the same crash protection benefits with a much simpler setup. On the other hand, it would be pretty cool.
Click to expand...


Aluminum tube weighs exactly 0 point nuthing per foot, more important it is zero.nothing % of overall weight of a car, and third and most important, even more important than the 0.15% total overall weight gain is weight isn't really important in any racing that you are not relying on the earn the money to pay your rent/mortgage.
Ya know? amateur racing, funsies stuff? about anything but a few people doin the whole country...

Realistic assesement of that means things like reliability from the maniacs ramming into eachother----and most of the other guys are in the same boat , and probably suffer the same zero.nuthing % weight increase (Oh Noez!!!) as well so not big +- advantage.

Distribution?? zero point nuthing % shifted front or rear means nothing...

Much more complex?

Rad is same---nope not MUCH MORE
Hose plumbing is the most simple thing in working on a car imaginable...nope not MUCH MORE complex.

A coupla bent up straps of steel or aluminum to hold the rad? Nope not MUCH MORE COMPLEX

stringing a couple of wires?

Nope nothing complex at all, much less "much MORE complex"
Whatchoo goin' on about?

You even wrench?
 
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John V said:
All about protection. Mount the rad on the underside of the trunk lid, 2 nice fans below.
QAir gotta get in in order to get blown out, think of that.
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This.
I mounted the radiator in the trunk on a Mustang. Expanded steel screen on the top of the trunk lid and between the tail lights. Mounted the radiator at about a 30 degree angle against the rear panel, ducted it to outlet between the tails, and draw in from the trunk lid.
We ran it with an electric water pump, and plumbed in 1.5" aluminum tube. We estimate it added 18 pounds of aluminum, and about 15 pounds of coolant in this process, but it cooled way better than factory, held a couple extra gallons of coolant, and helped balance out the weight distribution.

It also allowed us to clean up the front aero, blocking off the openings in the front. Don't know exactly how much that helped, but it could be felt over 100mph.
 
Aluminum tube weighs exactly 0 point nuthing per foot
Click to expand...

True, but the coolant inside the tube does have significant weight. If you're talking about running 20 feet of 2" coolant lines, that's roughly 30lbs just in extra coolant (~3.5 gal., according to my napkin math). That's like driving around with a couple paving slabs in the passenger seat. Probably not hugely significant for hobby racing, but why add it if you don't have to?

Distribution?? zero point nuthing % shifted front or rear means nothing...
Click to expand...

I only brought that up because the OP was wondering about the weight distribution benefits of relocating the radiator to the trunk. My point was that he isn't going to be seeing an advantage in terms of weight distribution. And technically, it's roughly 3% of the weight of the car, assuming he's lightened it somewhat. Just to be pedantic. ;-)

Much more complex?
Click to expand...

Yeah, it is much more complex. The OP would have to buy, bend and route 20 or so feet of coolant tube, rig up some radiator mounts in the trunk, hack a hole in his trunk lid, rig up some ducting (aluminum? fiber glass?) buy and mount some electric fans and wire the whole thing up. That's much more complex than, you know, not doing any of that. I didn't even mention the price, but that's probably at least a few hundred dollars worth of hoses, fans, wires, fasteners and raw materials.

I never said it would be impossibly complicated, but it would be significantly more complex than just rigging up some protection for the radiator in its current location. Sure, it could probably be done in an afternoon, but that's still a lot of work for something that isn't really necessary.
 
Fjergus said:
True, but the coolant inside the tube does have significant weight. If you're talking about running 20 feet of 2" coolant lines, that's roughly 30lbs just in extra coolant (~3.5 gal., according to my napkin math). That's like driving around with a couple paving slabs in the passenger seat. Probably not hugely significant for hobby racing, but why add it if you don't have to?



I only brought that up because the OP was wondering about the weight distribution benefits of relocating the radiator to the trunk. My point was that he isn't going to be seeing an advantage in terms of weight distribution. And technically, it's roughly 3% of the weight of the car, assuming he's lightened it somewhat. Just to be pedantic. ;-)



Yeah, it is much more complex. The OP would have to buy, bend and route 20 or so feet of coolant tube, rig up some radiator mounts in the trunk, hack a hole in his trunk lid, rig up some ducting (aluminum? fiber glass?) buy and mount some electric fans and wire the whole thing up. That's much more complex than, you know, not doing any of that. I didn't even mention the price, but that's probably at least a few hundred dollars worth of hoses, fans, wires, fasteners and raw materials.

I never said it would be impossibly complicated, but it would be significantly more complex than just rigging up some protection for the radiator in its current location. Sure, it could probably be done in an afternoon, but that's still a lot of work for something that isn't really necessary.
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3% of what? You're not being pedantic at all, you just making up stuff.. IT? IT is 3% what is "IT"?

Much more complex! than not doing anything.....dood, that's deep. Deep, I'm convinced.


OP just run a stock car.


ANYTHING you do is going to be "Much more complex" than doing nothing...
If fact those days they have Ice races (you lucky bastid!) just don't set the alarm, that's much more complex than just continuing to snore...
 
On a car that is driven at it's limits and set up properly taking that weight off the nose of the car and moving it to the trunk can be felt by the driver. If it wasn't something substantial then why bother moving the battery?

EVERYTHING is more complex than not doing anything, but mounting the radiator in the trunk isn't rocket science.
 
badvlvo said:
On a car that is driven at it's limits and set up properly taking that weight off the nose of the car and moving it to the trunk can be felt by the driver. If it wasn't something substantial then why bother moving the battery?

EVERYTHING is more complex than not doing anything, but mounting the radiator in the trunk isn't rocket science.
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Eric more people move the battery because everybody says to move the battery than corner weigh the car and finger out "sheeeut damn I can put it HERE! and do something useful."

They do it--and I did too:oops:---on FWD cars where the weight on the drive wheels is a good thing...
I can say derp derp pretty good!:-P

Watch!
DERP!
 
Magnus-Volvo-245-LS-Wagon-22-of-41.jpg


The article for the car is here.

In this case, the guy has a big IC up front and felt he was out of room so he put the rad in the rear.

In motorcycling circles (you know.... that world outside of TB), the idea beind this was to improve the efficiency of the radiator and rethink the architecture of the bike in general. In the Britten V1000,
Britten%20V1000-1.jpg

the radiator was ducted and mounted under the seat. This reduced frontal area and air passing through the radiator exited into a lower pressure area.

In the case of this wagon above, you can tell he's taking care to make sure air can exit rather easily, but it's kind of tough to tell if the entry side is shrouded. As long as cooling air has no place to go but through the radiator and you do something like the above to make sure it's very easy for the air to get out, it'll work fine all day long.
 
John V said:
3% of what? You're not being pedantic at all, you just making up stuff.. IT? IT is 3% what is "IT"?

Much more complex! than not doing anything.....dood, that's deep. Deep, I'm convinced.


OP just run a stock car.


ANYTHING you do is going to be "Much more complex" than doing nothing...
If fact those days they have Ice races (you lucky bastid!) just don't set the alarm, that's much more complex than just continuing to snore...
Click to expand...

:wtf:

The "3%" comment was in response to you saying that the cooling system was "zero point nuthing %" of the total weight of the car. It's not. Assuming the cooling system weighs about 60lbs (including radiator, hoses, mounting, shrouds, fans, coolant, etc.), and the car weighs 2000lbs, the weight of the cooling system is 3% of the total weight of the car. Hence me being pedantic.

And I'm not saying "run a stock car." I'm saying "spend your time and money doing something that will actually make a difference." If there was a significant advantage to running your radiator in the back of your car, don't you think more race vehicles would be doing it? Yes, some do. Most don't. Tons of rear and mid engined cars don't even run rear mounted radiators.

Yes, you can put the radiator wherever you want it. No, it's not terribly difficult to do. Neither is replacing your hood with plywood or upholstering your seat in pink vinyl, but that doesn't mean those are good ideas either.

In my opinion, moving your radiator outside of the engine bay is a waste of time. It won't make you faster, it won't cool as efficiently, it probably won't protect your cooling system better than a decent crash structure would, it would be heavier, and it would take time and money away from stuff that would actually make your car more competitive. That's my .02$, but do whatever you want to do.

/endrant
 
Asssuming the "cooling system weighs....." Assuming the car weighs 2000lbs..

Its not the total weigh it is the differential weight... and 60lbs? And even more Wot dafuq? is the 2000lb for a Volvo 240... Takes a fair amount of effort to get them to 2550 lbs ...what does "a decent crash structure" weigh?

Its amateur ice racing.. Those guys are certifiable loons.. I lurv them...good cheap mindless fun and people do ram into eachother sometimes and sometimes they stuff it into snowbanks---and clog the whole front of the car and even if they don't puncture the rad, it gets PACKED...Pcaked solid air intakes = overheating...
Been there, dun dat

I am gently suggestion that you're making up numbers, based on wild assumptions and making judgements about the advisability on---this is just a guess--never having built ---and weighed a Volvo 240 car---- to use for cheap fun racing..

2000 lbs? I know its now legal to smoke da spliff here in WA but man put down the whatever and step away from the uh er I dunno, step away from the whatever!
 
Fine, let's say the car weighs 3000lbs, or 5000lbs, or 10000lbs. You're right, I'm just pulling rough numbers out of thin air (that's the meaning of "napkin math"). My point was just that the cooling system weighs something, and the more of it you add the more it will weigh. Go out and weigh a radiator, 20ft of coolant line, a fan and 5 gal of coolant and tell me it weighs less that 60lbs. It's not a "wild assumption."

Honestly though, let's ignore the weight entirely. It doesn't change the fact that he would be better served spending his time and money on something other than moving his radiator. Lots of people race cars (yes, even on ice) with their radiators in the stock location with no problems whatsoever. Yes, it's possible to move it. Yes, it would probably be marginally less likely to get packed with snow. It's just unnecessary.

You are entitled to your opinion, but don't insult me because you don't agree with mine.
 
Thank you everyone for the replies. Still one weekend left in the ice race season, and getting ideas for next year. I haven't weighed the car in a few years, but it was around 3000 lbs with 250lbs of that weight strapped in the back. RWD cars seem to need some weight in the back to remain competitive. Generally about 10% of the cars total weight ends up as ballast over the rear wheels in a front engine rear drive car. Every pound off the front and over the back sounds like an advantage to me.

badvlvo, I read a bit about electric pumps and some people seem to run them on their own, or with the stock water pump. Some seem to just run the stock pump too. What kind of setup did you have? Either way it's good to hear that it worked well for you. I don't think aero will become a factor at the speeds we run at, but every little bit helps.

Yes, I know this is more complex, will require some effort, and totally unnecessary. The car has been running for 9 years now with the stock system trouble free with the exception of occasionally clearing some snow and adding a couple zip ties to hold the rad where it belongs. Other cars and snowbanks can sneak up and hit much harder than expected.

John is right, we are a bit looney, but this is about as cheap as you can get for good competitive door to door racing. Despite the size and weight of the 240 compared to other popular RWD cars (Chevette, MR2, Datsun, Toyota, RX7) it is still able to hang in there.

When the weather warms up I'll bust out the tools, scales, and some parts, and see what I can do.
 
Weigh the capacity of coolant it would take to do a rear swap and post results. Need more weight in the rear anyways for ice or snow right? Grip is a good thing I thought? I may be wrong, but I would move weight to the rear for more grip. 10 gallons of water weighs ~80lbs right? Aluminum weighs next to nothing as JV said. Leave the battery in the front if you're that worried.
 
ghettobrick said:
Thank you everyone for the replies. Still one weekend left in the ice race season, and getting ideas for next year. I haven't weighed the car in a few years, but it was around 3000 lbs with 250lbs of that weight strapped in the back. RWD cars seem to need some weight in the back to remain competitive. Generally about 10% of the cars total weight ends up as ballast over the rear wheels in a front engine rear drive car. Every pound off the front and over the back sounds like an advantage to me.

badvlvo, I read a bit about electric pumps and some people seem to run them on their own, or with the stock water pump. Some seem to just run the stock pump too. What kind of setup did you have? Either way it's good to hear that it worked well for you. I don't think aero will become a factor at the speeds we run at, but every little bit helps.

Yes, I know this is more complex, will require some effort, and totally unnecessary. The car has been running for 9 years now with the stock system trouble free with the exception of occasionally clearing some snow and adding a couple zip ties to hold the rad where it belongs. Other cars and snowbanks can sneak up and hit much harder than expected.

John is right, we are a bit looney, but this is about as cheap as you can get for good competitive door to door racing. Despite the size and weight of the 240 compared to other popular RWD cars (Chevette, MR2, Datsun, Toyota, RX7) it is still able to hang in there.

When the weather warms up I'll bust out the tools, scales, and some parts, and see what I can do.
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You know some guys i know? Chris Martin and Martin Walter (Nissan 240)

What tires you guys run?

I imported a couple hundred of these for some gang of loons down in Maine some years back and they all loved them..
1346_br110__15208.1389252802.1280.1280.jpg


and
1344_br90__38180.1389253049.1280.1280.jpg


They're Finnish rally tires and the glue in the studs and then bake the tires to set them and you keep them on ice and the studs stay put..like 2 seasons and maybe 2-3 stud spit out...
You gotta post some action shots, eh!
 
Fjergus said:
Fine, let's say the car weighs 3000lbs, or 5000lbs, or 10000lbs. You're right, I'm just pulling rough numbers out of thin air (that's the meaning of "napkin math"). My point was just that the cooling system weighs something, and the more of it you add the more it will weigh. Go out and weigh a radiator, 20ft of coolant line, a fan and 5 gal of coolant and tell me it weighs less that 60lbs. It's not a "wild assumption."

Honestly though, let's ignore the weight entirely. It doesn't change the fact that he would be better served spending his time and money on something other than moving his radiator. Lots of people race cars (yes, even on ice) with their radiators in the stock location with no problems whatsoever. Yes, it's possible to move it. Yes, it would probably be marginally less likely to get packed with snow. It's just unnecessary.

You are entitled to your opinion, but don't insult me because you don't agree with mine.
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I am not insulting you..
From one perspective--come on think about another point of view---pulling outlandish made up numbers and posting them and then going on with percentages--which are meaningless because the numbers were made up---about them can be viewed as insulting.. as in the old popular phrase "You insult my meager intelligence."...I mean i hain't the brightest soul but I don't just make up stuff and then argue about what i make up and then get defensive...

You may very well be right, but its hardly much effort and it is at the level of carpentry, hardly serious work like say building an engine--which isn't that hard...who can say if "he would be better served"?

Have you ever boffed the front of a car into a snowbank and filled the grille and rad with packed snow?
I have..overheating happens fast! And guaranteed..
That's why I think if he wants to remove threat very possible scenario, sure, why not...


Personally I'd rather see him make the car into a dual purpose car...ice racer and rally car cause rally needs more hard core loons, less nerdular keyboard jockeys
 
Funny to see someone say the handling is going to go to #$$@ from all that water that goes from one end of the car to the other end....Porsche has been doing this for some time now with the 911...and before Porsche did it people have been installing watercooled motors into older 911s with radiators mounted up front...haven't heard of anyone going off the road from "all" that water and wrecking!


Seems like one could just move the radiator back in the compartment as close to the motor as possible (make sure the motor doesn't move!) and reenforce the front of the car, perhaps a temporary guard like a brush guard like trucks use.
 
Mueller said:
Funny to see someone say the handling is going to go to #$$@ from all that water that goes from one end of the car to the other end....Porsche has been doing this for some time now with the 911...and before Porsche did it people have been installing watercooled motors into older 911s with radiators mounted up front...haven't heard of anyone going off the road from "all" that water and wrecking!


Seems like one could just move the radiator back in the compartment as close to the motor as possible (make sure the motor doesn't move!) and reenforce the front of the car, perhaps a temporary guard like a brush guard like trucks use.
Click to expand...

Very good point about making sure the motor doesn't move----I've tried and tried suggesting variouis things aboput making motors sit still..like making mounts like so many used to do on all sorts of cars but now---with the rise of the Intra-web where everybody with a keyboard is a ex-spurt--we see so seldom...

That bit about stuffing into a snow bank...when i been abord gravel cars and 'the car in which they were riding left the road" its like eye popping how much the engine and box jumps around...

But nobody seems interested in good mounts---cause maybe they'll have to weld...:run::e-shrug::cries:
 
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