home register FAQ memberlist calendar

Go Back   Turbobricks Forums > Mechanical > performance & modifications

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-03-2018, 11:35 PM   #1
Dirty Rick
Board Member
 
Dirty Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Cornholio, OR
Default Garrett 409080-5009

What should I limit the boost to?

It hits 200kpa really quick

B230 in a '84 760 Auto.

Nice intercooler, big exhaust, RC750's on pump gas.

Not sure how much the trans will take.

I'm not a boost junkie and its not my car, I don't want to turn loose a monster.

This thing will easily make 250kpa, I'd like to know where the trans signs off.

Last edited by Dirty Rick; 07-04-2018 at 12:35 PM..
Dirty Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2018, 06:07 PM   #2
tryingbe
Boosting along.
 
tryingbe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mesa, AZ
Default

You have a T4 turbo?

http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/8275...turbo-500-obo/
__________________
85 GLH 367whp
00 Insight mpg > yours.
tryingbe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2018, 08:39 AM   #3
740atl
educator monkey
 
740atl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: south jersey
Default

In what vehicle does that turbo hit 200kpa quick?

Would be near my last choice for a b230 with stock auto.... stall speed of say 2000rpm. Unless you’re hitting it with a shot of nitrous on the line that is gonna be a dog. I don’t see how you’re gonna get 200kpa before 5000rpm.

I’d pass But ymmv
740atl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2018, 11:04 AM   #4
Dirty Rick
Board Member
 
Dirty Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Cornholio, OR
Default

The turbo I am messing with must be a hybrid, the hot side has been changed. Much smaller. Internal waste gate.

Dirty Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2018, 11:38 AM   #5
Dirty Rick
Board Member
 
Dirty Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Cornholio, OR
Default

I'm cleaning up someones mess and I'm short on knowledge of things boosty

I think it is a combination that get hosed shortly over 250kpa due to limited flow of the exhaust side.

Will the compressor side be happy getting spun that fast?

Just looking at it hurts my eyes, I want to do something with the exit flow.
That necked down section looks like a huge bottle neck.
I'm thinking welding on a V band to match the large pipe and port the outlet to match.
But thats on the bucket list.

First I'm having trouble getting boost under control.
What is the best control method to get smooth boost limiting?
It has a 3 port older DIY solenoid
It has a 2 port WG actuator, should I be using both ports?
I'm finding a confusing number of ways to hook it up.
Also It doesn't have a boost port on the compressor housing, where is the best place to get the boost signal?
I can drill & tap the housing or the turbo to cooler pipe for this.
I did not see a bung on the compressor housing to drill.
I am used to seeing a pressure port on the compressor housing or a place to drill one.

Or is this hybrid combo off the deep end and needs to be reworked?
Power level is good I'm mostly concerned with smooth control at this point.

Last edited by Dirty Rick; 07-06-2018 at 11:58 AM..
Dirty Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2018, 12:05 PM   #6
oldschoolvolvo
Board Member
 
oldschoolvolvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Lancaster, PA
Default

I'm assuming your WGA looks like this:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tnt-30326


To start with, I wouldn't worry about connecting the solenoid, and only connect the boost signal line to the outer port on the WGA. I'd add a hose barb to the hot side IC pipe as close to the turbine outlet as possible. This setup should allow you to make sure things are working in a "typical" setup before adding the extra boost control solenoid. I'd also set your WGA preload to 1/2 the diameter of the WG pin if it isn't that way already.
__________________
-Mike
1998 V70 T5
1979 242 DL+T |Project Thread| |Feedback|
oldschoolvolvo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2018, 03:34 PM   #7
tryingbe
Boosting along.
 
tryingbe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mesa, AZ
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Rick View Post
The turbo I am messing with must be a hybrid, the hot side has been changed. Much smaller. Internal waste gate.

This is what you can a T4 (compressor side) / T3 (turbine side) hybrid.

Go measure the compressor wheel diameter and then we can look up the compressor map.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Rick View Post
Just looking at it hurts my eyes, I want to do something with the exit flow.
That necked down section looks like a huge bottle neck.
I'm thinking welding on a V band to match the large pipe and port the outlet to match.
But thats on the bucket list.
This is what you really want.

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=343198

Then you can port out the wastegate hole in the turbine housing to reduce boost creep. You want the boost control hose to be as small and short as possible to get the signal to the wastegate actuator as fast as possible.
tryingbe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2018, 10:24 AM   #8
Dirty Rick
Board Member
 
Dirty Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Cornholio, OR
Default

Thanks, you may have just told that housing.

How can I ID the actuator that is installed?

I found out the trans has been blessed for 350hp by Morton.

Last edited by Dirty Rick; 07-07-2018 at 11:27 AM..
Dirty Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2018, 12:16 PM   #9
tryingbe
Boosting along.
 
tryingbe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mesa, AZ
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Rick View Post
How can I ID the actuator that is installed?
You put air to it and see how much PSI to take to get it open and how much psi it takes to fully open it.


I use a 7psi actuator and a electronic boost controller to control boost up to 27psi.
tryingbe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2018, 11:57 PM   #10
Dirty Rick
Board Member
 
Dirty Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Cornholio, OR
Default

I'll do that.
Dirty Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2018, 02:27 PM   #11
Dirty Rick
Board Member
 
Dirty Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Cornholio, OR
Default

Actuator starts to move @ 8psi and is fully open at 16psi
Dirty Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2018, 02:42 PM   #12
Duder
His Dudeness, El Duderino
 
Duder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Default

A good way to set up most internal wastegates is to measure rod extension with a dial indicator as you slowly pump up pressure into the actuator (using a Mityvac or other regulated pressure source w/ gauge). The pressure required to reach 1.00mm (0.040") extension is the ballpark pressure you'd reach without boost control. Swing valves don't need much opening at all to flow most of their capacity. It's fairly non-linear. Of course you can adjust preload on the actuator to get more out of it, by shortening the rod end, but then you start limiting travel.
Duder is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2018, 06:29 PM   #13
tryingbe
Boosting along.
 
tryingbe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mesa, AZ
Default

Your current system seems to work very good at 200kpa. Why not just leave it be?

Last edited by tryingbe; 07-13-2018 at 11:29 AM..
tryingbe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2018, 11:16 AM   #14
Dirty Rick
Board Member
 
Dirty Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Cornholio, OR
Default

I need to keep it out of over-boost protection.

I'm still learning here,
I think the small outlet is limiting waste gate control?

My sweaty pea brain is thinking there is a huge pressure drop between the housing and the 3", under boost?
I'll be hugging my AC today even though the parts showed up.
Dirty Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2018, 05:30 PM   #15
Dirty Rick
Board Member
 
Dirty Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Cornholio, OR
Default







OK back on track here.

Had to send ATP housing back to get it machined properly so the nuts would spin and sit flat.
I thought it was just a mistake.
Silly me, expecting a finished part, not a rough casting.

Got it back and they did not machine it, they waved a die grinder at it and called it good.
BASTARDS!

Had to rework the one hole they worked on and fix another!

So I cleared that hurdle and wait, more fun!

Found a broken stud when I removed the housing from the turbo. Cussed at it while I pulled the turbo, bleed on it a bit, found other boogers to fix, non hardened nylock nuts used to retain the turbo to the manifold. More cuss words, some heat, some PB Blaster, and MIG welded a nut to the broken stud, got it out on the 6th try after breaking off 5. Stud would rock but would not spin, had to keep rocking it to work it loose enough to spin out. A couple of the other studs were too short and I got them out without any further breakage, ran a tap in the holes and installed new studs.

At this point I'm feeling like a master mechanic I won! What else can go wrong?

Duder axed me to test pressure to move actuator 1mm, that happened at 4psi (disconnected from the WG lever).
I have a 2 port actuator, how much preload? 1mm?
Previous wrench (douche) had put 1/4" or more preload on it. Might have had something to do with the overboosting.
I need to get this right because there is no adjusting it with the turbo installed.

I also need to add a piece to the actuator extension to straighten out some offset so the actuator rod is straight and change from 5/16" stud to 1/4" stud on new WG lever. New WG lever is a little shorter too, but that should not be an issue I hope.

Actuator hit full extension at 18-20psi? on a 15psi gauge.

Last edited by Dirty Rick; 08-02-2018 at 06:32 PM..
Dirty Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2018, 06:57 PM   #16
Dirty Rick
Board Member
 
Dirty Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Cornholio, OR
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolvolvo View Post
I'm assuming your WGA looks like this:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tnt-30326


To start with, I wouldn't worry about connecting the solenoid, and only connect the boost signal line to the outer port on the WGA. I'd add a hose barb to the hot side IC pipe as close to the turbine outlet as possible. This setup should allow you to make sure things are working in a "typical" setup before adding the extra boost control solenoid. I'd also set your WGA preload to 1/2 the diameter of the WG pin if it isn't that way already.
Yes that looks like what I have.

So you are saying 1/8" preload?

I found a spot to grab boost pressure in the boss for the dump valve near the turbo.
That worked well, thanks.
Dirty Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2018, 01:33 PM   #17
Dirty Rick
Board Member
 
Dirty Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Cornholio, OR
Default

Bump for preload recommendation.
Dirty Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2018, 01:43 PM   #18
oldschoolvolvo
Board Member
 
oldschoolvolvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Lancaster, PA
Default

1/2 the diameter of the pin on the wastegate flapper is the standard recommendation for a "baseline". You can increase the boost a few psi by increasing the preload, but a MBC or EBC is preferred for increasing boost much above the WGA setting.

From post #5 you say that you have a boost control solenoid. AFTER you make sure your system is working properly with just the WGA hooked up, then you can get the boost control solenoid plumbed in.
oldschoolvolvo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2018, 12:26 PM   #19
Dirty Rick
Board Member
 
Dirty Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Cornholio, OR
Default

Thanks, I'll be back after getting the turbo back on and making a new down pipe.
Dirty Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2018, 03:04 PM   #20
Dirty Rick
Board Member
 
Dirty Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Cornholio, OR
Default

Down pipe is done, and then redone.

For all you first timers welding on V band flanges clamp a pair of flanges together and use lots of tacks or the flanges will warp.
I turned one into a potato chip, thought i had it tacked enough.




I have been banging my head on boost control and BDV setup.

That turbo is very responsive and I had lots of problems with overboosting.
I tried using closed loop control and could not get that working.
After I switched to open loop it was much easier to dial in.
I worked from full boost turning it down more and more many times to get a handle on it.
It seems it would have been easier to start with no boost and turn it up than it was to find all the spots it over boosts and get it turned down.

Whatever, I have it under control now but have run into issues with the BDV opening under part throttle and Fluttering.

The BDV got moved from the pipe between the TB and the cooler to the charge pipe between the turbo and the cooler.
This violates Greddy's instructions for the FV, I'd like to understand the difference and wonder if this may be the cause of the flutter.
Turning up the spring pressure doesnt stop the flutter, it moves it up pressure wise.
This seems like treating the symptom rather than the cause.
I thought of trying a delay valve or some other bandaid because it seems counter productive to turn up the spring pressure if it holds at WFO.
Is the control system the booger, or pressure waves bouncing back from the intercooler volume?

Any thoughts? Im perfectly happy to move the valve back to the other pipe on the outlet of the cooler as this seems the most logical place for it.
The move was done by another and I don't know why or what led to moving it.
I've had other internet experts tell me it should be located closest to the boost source, but then,
When the BDV opens the flow in the intercooler has to reverse (which I think may be the cause of the flutter).

The Greddy instructions are vague on how to set the valve,

"If irregular idle or engine stall occurs, loosen the M6 lock nut and turn the adjustment screw to
HARD until the problem is eliminated.
After the adjustment, tighten the lock nut to secure the setting.
※ The adjustment is preset to the softest position form factory. Do not turn it further out that
this position.
※ Make sure to loosen the lock nut before making adjustment. turning the adjusting screw
without loosening the lock nut will strip out the top housing.
※ Then the adjustment screw is turned in, the stock of the valve decreases. Screwing it in too
far will affect the proper operation of the valve."

Those instructions might be easier to read in Japanese!

I thought it should be simply set to a couple pounds over full normal boost. Checked by applying a regulated air pressure against it.
But that would be influenced by the pressure signal received from the intake manifold.

Learn me?

Last edited by Dirty Rick; 09-24-2018 at 03:27 PM..
Dirty Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:50 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.