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Converting to E85 (ethanol fuel)

I live in Ukraine, "before last" winter one time was -32 C, but usually about -10 ... -20 C.

i plan to start small business, produsing and installing equipment for using E100 and E85 on usual cars.
it will be "impulse wideners" and/or reprogramming of ECU - becouse its universal for many types of cars and installing and deinstalling without traces - our car dealers can stop warranty for car if any electric units are installed NOT in their services.

and i have to develop a preheater for cold starting - so i cant deside what to heat - fuel or air.

fuel heater may be like biodieselers do - heating by glowwire fuel ramp or injectors, not to very high temp.

air heater may be like ring with ceramic or wire heater between intake collector and MAF sensor - it easy installing and deinstalling
or plase diesel glow "spark plug" in each tube of intake collector near the intake valve and limit its temp by resistor or other way. it cant be uninstall easilly and traceless, but i think its better solution.

driver tunrs on ignition and do noot turn on the starter - glow plugs heats air in intake collector by 30 - 45 sec - and switching off becouse they takin much electricity and it is no good for starter. driver starts engine - intake collector contains 1-2 liter of warmed air, it is enough to start engine.

before intake filter will be the thermostat like this - it will mix cold outside air and hot air, taked near output collector and automatically keepeng temp 25 C - its cheap and do not using electricity, there is bimetall plate inside. but it can warm air only after engine starts and output collector warms up.

http://acat.autodealer.ru/index.php?tree=8_717

code of thermostat is 2108-1143010

So question is: what to heat? what better: ingection of cold fuel in cold air of intake collector or injecting cold fuel with warm air?
 
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I live in Ukraine, "before last" winter one time was -32 C, but usually about -10 ... -20 C.

i plan to start small business, produsing and installing equipment for using E100 and E85 on usual cars.
it will be "impulse wideners" and/or reprogramming of ECU - becouse its universal for many types of cars and installing and deinstalling without traces - our car dealers can stop warranty for car if any electric units are installed NOT in their services.

and i have to develop a preheater for cold starting - so i cant deside what to heat - fuel or air.

fuel heater may be like biodieselers do - heating by glowwire fuel ramp or injectors, not to very high temp.

air heater may be like ring with ceramic or wire heater between intake collector and MAF sensor - it easy installing and deinstalling
or plase diesel glow "spark plug" in each tube of intake collector near the intake valve and limit its temp by resistor or other way. it cant be uninstall easilly and traceless, but i think its better solution.

driver tunrs on ignition and do noot turn on the starter - glow plugs heats air in intake collector by 30 - 45 sec - and switching off becouse they takin much electricity and it is no good for starter. driver starts engine - intake collector contains 1-2 liter of warmed air, it is enough to start engine.

before intake filter will be the thermostat like this - it will mix cold outside air and hot air, taked near output collector and automatically keepeng temp 25 C - its cheap and do not using electricity, there is bimetall plate inside. but it can warm air only after engine starts and output collector warms up.

http://acat.autodealer.ru/index.php?tree=8_717

code of thermostat is 2108-1143010

So question is: what to heat? what better: ingection of cold fuel in cold air of intake collector or injecting cold fuel with warm air?
I can answer that question very easy.

Heat the fuel. It has to do with weight/density of the substance that is heated. Heating 100 grams of fuel before starting is the same as heating 1000 grams of air. 100 grams of fuel does not take up much space, but 1000 grams of air takes up a lot of space. Even before the car has finished the 5-10th revolution, all the air that you heated will be gone.

And if you are going to convert cars to run on E85 or E100 in the way you want to do it, then NEVER put a piggyback pluse-widener on a chip tuned car or any other car that is close to maxing out the injectors.
 
about heating:

1. fuel in ramp is circulating (going back to a fuel tank) and i have to warm up much more fuel then burns in engine right now.
2. we have 2 carb cars, running on E100 - their owners told, that carbs are WERY cold when engine is running - ethanol takes much more energy to vaporisation, and it takes it from air. if air will be cold?


about converting - it will be "piggyback" OR chip tuning - becouse some cars can be tuned easily, quickly and it will not cost much, but some cars are "on warranty" or they are new or unpopular and i cant tune their chips. i prefer "piggyback" - i design my own and it will cost much less then Brazilian units.

changing injectors is not good - i know that gas stations with E85 or E100 will be at 1-2 cities in our country this and next year and if you want to go for a long way you have to switch to a gas.
 
1. fuel in ramp is circulating (going back to a fuel tank) and i have to warm up much more fuel then burns in engine right now.
But if the engine is not running the fuel will not be circulating.

You only need a couple of cc's of fuel that is heated to start the car. Then the car will stay running with the E85 even though it is cold.
 
how do you think, can i use E100 without any gasoline addition with fuel preheater for cold starting?

E100 will be cheaper than E85...

I already testing my "piggyback" device, installed on Nissan Note 1,6 AT with 96% ethanol. works fine, but now is summer, heater is not installed... where can i see drawings or photos of original fuel ramp heaters from stock flex-fuel cars?

P.S. I found this text on one of sites about biofuel:

"An interesting feature of the fuel injection system is that it doesn't require any gasoline during the cold weather starting process to fire the engine up. Since the fuel is injected at a pressure of about 250 PSI, the alcohol fuel is sufficiently vaporized to ignite easily within the combustion chamber."

what can you say about it?

P.P.S. have a problem: when engine running about 3000-4000 rpm and quickly remove foot from gas sometimes engine stops, other times rotation speed lower to about 500 and quickly returns to usual 750.
 
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is it possible to do a poll about fuel economy (MPG) with e-85

I have noticed that I could do roughly 15-17 mpg in city driving on my 95 944T with injector swap to FORD 5L CFI "400" injectors.

thanks guys
 
"piggyback" device is tested, all problems solved. start to pruducing :-)

did you advance timing for E85 or ethanol?

there is a device for it:
http://www.aeb.it/products/timing-advance-processors
Yes, you can advance timing quite a lot.

Depending on static and dynamic compression, 12 degrees or so is possible under light to medium load. And 3-6 degrees (sometimes more) during heavy load.

At high rpm and high load simultaneously, the timing should in many cases stay close to stock unless the engine has been altered in such a way to actually benefit from it.

Pinging is not really an issue with moderate timing advance. It will run "hard" though, and feel really strange if the timing is too advanced. When I say that it runs and feels "hard", then what actually happens in real life is that the power that should push the piston down actually occurs a little too early and counteracts the movement of the piston.

Peak cylinder pressure should occur at around 15 degrees after TDC in most of our engines for best power (if the fuel allows you to do so). Also keep an eye on the exhaust gas temperature if you are running a full standalone like MS or equivalent.
 
i think it will be easy to add timing advance to my "piggyback" device - just add 2 wires - input and output from crancshaft position sensor.

did most engines using 60+2 scheme of control pins?
 
Hello!

some people told, that platinum spark plugs can not be used with ethanol fuels.

have you any info about it?
 
i think it will be easy to add timing advance to my "piggyback" device - just add 2 wires - input and output from crancshaft position sensor.

did most engines using 60+2 scheme of control pins?
I don't really understand your question.

All LH2.4 cars use 60-2, yes.
 
Hello!

some people told, that platinum spark plugs can not be used with ethanol fuels.

have you any info about it?
That is not a problem at all.

But i doubt that you will gain anything by using platinum plugs in an 8v engine. They will probably wear out just as quick as the "regular" ones.

i will use platinum plugs on my 16v though, but that is for a whole other reason.
 
for my 16V there is only platinum spark plugs.
their lifetime is 60 000 km - by service manual.
how do you think, will ethanol reduce it's lifetime?
 
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for my 16V there is only platinum spark plugs.
their lifetime is 60 000 km - by service manual.
how do you think, will ethanol reduce it's lifetime?
No. It will not reduce its lifetime. It will actually prolong it since it will not foul the plug at all. The plug will get a light gray or light brown color at the most.
 
I was thinking a little bit about k-jet...

Since the turbo fuel distributors have two extra connections (same distributor as the 6-cyl engines, right?), you could use those.

If you somehow could add two extra injectors to the manifold somewhere it would run really good and have a lot of power.

Seems like a nice way of doing it.

If the k-jet system is from the very early 80's or late 70's I would swap the seals and gaskets first though, because they might not be ethanol resistant.
 
Here is what I have. A 1987 MAZDA RX-7, Turbo car. I have a N332 ECU modified by Digital Tuning and it's called a RTEK2.1. With this ECU, I can change the fuel percentage by +40% or -40%. I also have a Zeitronix wide band 02 sensor/controller to view the AFR and I also can view the narrow band 02 output.

So. I put a half tank E-85 in the car with a half tank gasoline. I adjusted the RTEK to add 20% more fuel across the full range of the engine. With the narrow band 02 Disconnected, I can drive the car with no hesitations and at cruise I see around 15afr. Step on the pedal and the afr drops down to the 13afr range. Fine and dandy.

While this is happening, the 02 is mostly reading zero and sometimes at idle it reads a steady .7vdc. Take note that this model car only goes into closed loop when cruising above approx 1700rpm. NO closed loop at idle.

So. I drive along at say 25mph or above at a steady speed. When the ECU goes into closed loop, the car hesitates badly, and the wide band goes from say a 15afr to 17-18afr. Not what I'd expect. I thought it should go richer, not leaner.

I obviously cannot understand what I should be reading on the wideband. One earlier post said I would be reading the same afr I would for straight gasoline. That seems to be happening. But the narrow band for reasons I don't understand, either reads zero or .7 vdc and causes the car to go lean when it goes into closed loop.

So, can the above be explained? Normal? Can't be normal. Thanks for any input. Maybe I need a TurboBrick instead of a RX?
 
Hi Fred,
I'm about to order new injectors for my B204FT, but since http://www.racetronix.com/3172FM.html are no longer available, what should I buy ? Replacement part is brand-X... :-(
Stock B204FT, new fuel pumps, new fuel filter, stage 0 complete.
When the car will be running 100% E85, I'll order a set of your chips, but I'll stay at stock boost (0,4 / 0,8 bar).
Thanks !

EDIT : the 63 lb/hr isn't discontinued yet : http://www.racetronix.com/L107FM.html
 
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Here is what I have. A 1987 MAZDA RX-7, Turbo car. I have a N332 ECU modified by Digital Tuning and it's called a RTEK2.1. With this ECU, I can change the fuel percentage by +40% or -40%. I also have a Zeitronix wide band 02 sensor/controller to view the AFR and I also can view the narrow band 02 output.

So. I put a half tank E-85 in the car with a half tank gasoline. I adjusted the RTEK to add 20% more fuel across the full range of the engine. With the narrow band 02 Disconnected, I can drive the car with no hesitations and at cruise I see around 15afr. Step on the pedal and the afr drops down to the 13afr range. Fine and dandy.

While this is happening, the 02 is mostly reading zero and sometimes at idle it reads a steady .7vdc. Take note that this model car only goes into closed loop when cruising above approx 1700rpm. NO closed loop at idle.

So. I drive along at say 25mph or above at a steady speed. When the ECU goes into closed loop, the car hesitates badly, and the wide band goes from say a 15afr to 17-18afr. Not what I'd expect. I thought it should go richer, not leaner.

I obviously cannot understand what I should be reading on the wideband. One earlier post said I would be reading the same afr I would for straight gasoline. That seems to be happening. But the narrow band for reasons I don't understand, either reads zero or .7 vdc and causes the car to go lean when it goes into closed loop.

So, can the above be explained? Normal? Can't be normal. Thanks for any input. Maybe I need a TurboBrick instead of a RX?

EDITED Oct 7: Never mind. Drained the tank and add two gallons of gasoline. Narrow band read normal again. Added one gallon of ethonal to the two gal of gasoline. Narrow band reads normal now. Somewhere along the line I must have put too much ethonal in the tank and that resulted in my confusion.
 
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