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injector upgrade

Out of everyone on this forum, you've professed yourself to be an MS expert. If you don't understand or haven't read on the concept of X-tau accel enrichment, There's really nothing I can do to simplify it for you.

WTF?
you are confusing me with someone else.
Sure after a search I remember a stupid physics terminology argument about mass and volume, but that didn't have anything to do with MS.
Surprised you remember, and moreso that you are holding a grudge.
Sorry for insulting you, please accept my apologies.

If there was anything wrong with the question I asked you here, if it wasn't gratious or polite, please let me know how to ask it properly. Hell I even asked "as a neophyte!"
can we make peace?

Thanks for listing X-tau accel enrichment, I'll read up on it.
 
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Sure, I'll dig up what info I have. I've done far more extensive reareach on LS3 injectors which have the same spray pattern, just different dynamic flow rate. The biggest thing we need to break you of is thinking "pintle" style injectors are the only type of injector that has an ideal spray pattern for 8V style heads. LS2 injectors have the same 4 hole diffuser as "modern" injectors, yet produce the same 8 degree spray pattern as 8V injectors. Doesn't mattter how modern the injector is. Fact of the matter is, each port has an ideal spray pattern and the GM LS series engine is as close as you're going to get for an OEM injector that matches the Volvo 8V head.

OK. I did a general search for narrow spray injectors, most seemed to be in the 15 degree range.

What I'll likely do is just get a set of reman Bosch Yellows (0280150762) to start with, just to see if it makes a difference to my cold start/warmup and overall fuel economy. That would easily identify whether the spray pattern is in fact issue in my 8V Fiat setup.
 
If everything else on the engine remains the same, the only reason to change injectors is to find a better spray pattern for a slightly more efficient burn. That will not give any noticeable power improvement, but it may give a slight improvement in fuel mileage and emissions. It would be difficult to determine if it was, in fact, due to new injectors or that the old injectors were in need of cleaning. Just because injector "B" flows more than injector "A", that increase flow will only be needed if work was done on the engine to allow it to breath better. The ECU will only allow the amount of fuel that is needed to maintain an efficient burn. If the engine is not getting more "air", then it doesn't need more fuel. Spend your time & money making sure that everything is CLEAN inside, that is the first place where you will see effects on performance and efficiency on a stock engine.
 
If everything else on the engine remains the same, the only reason to change injectors is to find a better spray pattern for a slightly more efficient burn. That will not give any noticeable power improvement, but it may give a slight improvement in fuel mileage and emissions. It would be difficult to determine if it was, in fact, due to new injectors or that the old injectors were in need of cleaning. Just because injector "B" flows more than injector "A", that increase flow will only be needed if work was done on the engine to allow it to breath better. The ECU will only allow the amount of fuel that is needed to maintain an efficient burn. If the engine is not getting more "air", then it doesn't need more fuel. Spend your time & money making sure that everything is CLEAN inside, that is the first place where you will see effects on performance and efficiency on a stock engine.

Did you really just ignore everything above this statement?
 
you really believe Cast iron and cast aluminum are porous?
if that was the case, the manifolds would be a HUGE vacuum leak.


Yes, when MS2 first offered sequential 4 cylinder fueling roughy 7 years ago I did extensive testing with a set of (relatively) good stock 19lb 8V injectors. Not only characterizing their dynamic flow rates and offsets, but the spray pattern as well. The goal was to "modernize" a mostly stock 8V NA engine to determine if there's any effiency to be gained with modern engine management. This research was brought on after reading several SAE papers on the subject, finding that an intake port with a single intake valve is less likely to consume the entire metered fuel charge with an atomizing injector, opposed to a narrow stream. The issue here not being deposit buildup, but port soaking during the injection event.

This is the mistake most people make when selecting a "better" injector for their car, assuming an injector that atomizes is superior to an injector with a narrow, focused stream. Two things happen with an atomizing injector: a percentage of the fuel injected gets absorbed into the port wall. During the intake stroke, not all of the fuel metered by the ECU will be consumed. The ECU obviously compensates for this in closed loop, however, you end up with a phenomena where the AFR will cycle during steady state cruise due to the port wall saturating and shedding fuel, and absorbing fuel again. What this results in is lost fuel economy and throttle response due to the inability to get all of the metered fuel into the chamber.

On an 8V engine and similar single valve ports, we ideally want the spray pattern as such that the injection event sprays fuel on the intake valve and that's it. Letting unatomized fuel soak on the intake valve benefits us in two ways: the heat of the valve boils the fuel and vaporizes it, and what hasn't vaporized is atomized by valve shear when the intake valve first opens. Hardly any fuel is lost to port soak because the intake valve isn't porous like cast aluminum or iron.

This is why you will find on any modern port injected engine the injection events are timed at low RPM and loads as such that the induction event is complete before the intake valve opens.

Back to my old NA 8V. During my testing I found that GM LS2 injectors have the identical spray pattern as stock 8V injectors. A little large for NA, but this is advantageous as injector events are shorter and can be more precisely timed. I characterized the offset and dynamic flow rate of each injector and was able to implement that data into MS2 as it allowed for individual injector characterizing. Spending countless hours on the dyno I was able to map out a solid VE table and injector timing table. The end result was a bone stock 245 (with exception of B cam) that averaged 25mpg city and 36mpg highway. Throttle response was crisp, and AFR during cruising would hold 16.0:1 without fluctuating even a single tenth.

Sure, you can throw any old set of whatever injectors you want in an 8V and it will start/run/drive. But, if you truly want "gains" you have to look beyond the static flow rate and how "new" the injector design is to accomplish any sort of gains.
 
you really believe Cast iron and cast aluminum are porous?
if that was the case, the manifolds would be a HUGE vacuum leak.

Also, the fuel has to be atomized to burn. Anything that isnt vaporized is wasted and goes out the tailpipe as unburned HC. Thats why we have emissions controls.
 
you really believe Cast iron and cast aluminum are porous?
if that was the case, the manifolds would be a HUGE vacuum leak.

Surface porosity from casting hardly ever translates to permeability. But, if that's your argument then you're missing the point entirely.
 
It's difficult to forget certain people on this forum whose summation of posts is horrible advice, devoid of any knowledge or logic. You are one of them.

you got an apology, a request to make peace, and thanks for the information you told me in this thread, and you still reply as above?

Sorry for insulting you, please accept my apologies.

can we make peace?

Thanks for listing X-tau accel enrichment, I'll read up on it.

Weird that you have such a grude, but mistakenly think I've ever said anything about megasquirt.

so again,
Sorry for insulting you, please accept my apologies.
Can we make peace?
 
For those interested in "port soak"
here's a video I found by searching for X-tau, cool info, magnitude of the issue became easier to grasp at 14:00 or so, prof says the puddle is about 6x an injector pulse.
Neato.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/0ItkpVofKLw?rel=0&showinfo=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
I found some 850 injectors (....746 ) cheap at a boneyard, and put in my 240. Start up is mildy improved and idle a bit smoother, not much different beyond that.

* It's possible that the later injectors were just cleaner ?
 
Bump...
Back to my old NA 8V. During my testing I found that GM LS2 injectors have the identical spray pattern as stock 8V injectors. A little large for NA, but this is advantageous as injector events are shorter and can be more precisely timed. I characterized the offset and dynamic flow rate of each injector and was able to implement that data into MS2 as it allowed for individual injector characterizing. Spending countless hours on the dyno I was able to map out a solid VE table and injector timing table. The end result was a bone stock 245 (with exception of B cam) that averaged 25mpg city and 36mpg highway. Throttle response was crisp, and AFR during cruising would hold 16.0:1 without fluctuating even a single tenth.
Do you have a part number for those injectors, by any chance? Or model for me to look them up from? I'm suffering from tailpipe emissions that bounce from excessive HC to excessive CO and anywhere in between. I did just reset my computers and toss in 25% E85, but I am also running some Pink body injectors that are from a newer P2 car with likely a wider spray pattern than wanted. I have passed emissions with them two years ago, but only just. I'm not sure why things are so erratic at the moment but having the wrong injector isn't going to help and from the sounds of things, this could be a symptom of the wrong injectors causing port soak. I'd be interested in getting something larger in there with the proper spray to better match my setups(also have another 8V non-turbo with what should be 175+hp).

EDIT: Nevermind, see below.
 
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I'd be really interested to know if there's something around the 60lb mark with a narrow cone. I was going to use Siemens Deka 60lb injectors but they have a 30 degree cone.
 
So, seriously, is there a high Z injector that flows more than the stock LH2.4 B230F non-turbo injector out there with the proper flow pattern for our signal intake valve engines???
 
850T5 injectors? 315cc I believe, they where my first choice when doing a +t. Not sure about spray pattern but they worked well
 
They work fine and have the proper spray pattern still for an 8V, but they're still the EV1, pintle style injector.
 
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