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Help, Crank won't turn by hand after rebuild

well I ordered some std bearings and they should be here in a week and a half. Engine has 300 000 km on it. Took it apart because cylinder 1 had piston slap. Turns out the guy I bought it from lent it to a guy who ran low octane for a month. Got detonation on cylinder 1 causing piston slap (extreme piston wear). Decided to swap in a piston head from a junk yard car and replace the rods while I'm at it. Have a T3/T4 turbo to put in so it should be good. Not looking for a long lasting car. Just a quick extreme budget project. More for Learning about cars instead of the car itself, I'm only 16 haha.
 
When you got the piston there are sizes to match those up as well. There is a letter on the block that corresponds to the size of the piston used in the block. You are supposed to make sure the replacement is the same size. Or you can have the block matched to a new piston but that is the proper procedure.

Hey you wanted to learn about engines.
 
maxitoman007 said:
well I ordered some std bearings and they should be here in a week and a half. Engine has 300 000 km on it. Took it apart because cylinder 1 had piston slap. Turns out the guy I bought it from lent it to a guy who ran low octane for a month. Got detonation on cylinder 1 causing piston slap (extreme piston wear). Decided to swap in a piston head from a junk yard car and replace the rods while I'm at it. Have a T3/T4 turbo to put in so it should be good. Not looking for a long lasting car. Just a quick extreme budget project. More for Learning about cars instead of the car itself, I'm only 16 haha.
Click to expand...

Wait...
You swapped in a SINGLE piston? You do realize there are multiple types of B230 available in north america, each with slight differences in compression. Are you 100% sure you used the EXACT same piston as you took out?
 
This thread illustrates why engine rebuilds are not cheap. It's a lot like a paint job, the devil is in the details and you get what you pay for. Having proper clearances is critical, and using new fasteners where needed, measuring everything precisely and knowing exactly what parts to order. A completely stock engine would be more dependable than one that has had a half assed rebuild. Best to either do it right or find a good used engine to drop in.
 
maxitoman007 said:
well this is my first rebuild and I dont have plastigage... oops. these are the bearings I bought
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Conn...ash=item1ea28ecb11:g:FpsAAOSwopRYmARN&vxp=mtr

The item numbers on the box I received match as well...

----->Is there anyway to use like calipers to check if your bearings are oversized?<------

I also discovered another possible cause of my issue. Ive been oiling the bearings before I put them in the rods/caps. I've read on other forums that you should never do that... Also is there any way i could just hold 2 bearing over the crank to see if the can turn freely or if I'm binding on the crank? Thanks again for the help.
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Haven't read the whole thread but the set you linked to was for 010" aka 0,25mm oversizd bearing...

Got the box they came in? Piccies or you got 010..

Specifically to the question highlighted well yeah that is how you are supposed to check things..This Plastigauge is /can be just OK but huge chance of operator errors..
Whatchoo should do is:
Mike bearing with ball nose mike. Mark with Sharpie the "max wall thickness"

Look here:
CR4133AM C4133 4 Pairs 48.984/49.004
51.999/52.014
23.95
1.488<--------------------------------------------------------rod brg thickness
MB5240AM M5240U
M5240L 5 Pairs 1,2,3,4,5 54.986/55.001
58.999/59.019
21.00
1.991<---------------------------------------------------main bearing thickness

You want a ball nose mike and you measure them...

Right now the smartest thing would be pull pistons to eliminate them from equation.
Grab front pulley and spin..Report.
 
dl242gt said:
When you got the piston there are sizes to match those up as well. There is a letter on the block that corresponds to the size of the piston used in the block. You are supposed to make sure the replacement is the same size. Or you can have the block matched to a new piston but that is the proper procedure.

Hey you wanted to learn about engines.
Click to expand...

Stop repeating this crap..It's true but utterly and completely irrelevant to anybody except the guy on the line assembling the engine who has bins full or pistons to match and those class-to-class size differences are smaller than I bet anybody here can repeatably measure..
mere fractions of a thousandth ..
Stop. That is intra-webz "truthiness" at its worst.

Look up the acceptable piston to cylinder clearance..Its GOBS and GOBS bigger than the 1-or 2 10,000ths.
This guy has way bigger problems than piston class worries.
 
Agreed John, although he does need to ensure that the engine he's got the piston from is the same CR as the one he took out.

Alternatively, he could pretend that the lumpy idle comes from a really wild cam.... :-P

EDIT: the difference between each grade of piston is 0.0004", whereas the wear limit is 0.004". Taper and ovality limits are 0.002", but let's be honest and reasonable here: after 180,000 miles or 300,000km it's really not relevant, as everything will have pretty big clearances by now.
 
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Yeah sure John you are right. However, a 16 year old kid with no money and just wants to put the engine together should by a whole lot of tools or pay for a lot of machine shop work?

The kid asked for affordable help and I was trying to help in the context of the thread. It may not be the best way to build but if we can help the kid get it back together that is the kind of help I was trying to give.
 
dl242gt said:
Yeah sure John you are right. However, a 16 year old kid with no money and just wants to put the engine together should by a whole lot of tools or pay for a lot of machine shop work?

The kid asked for affordable help and I was trying to help in the context of the thread. It may not be the best way to build but if we can help the kid get it back together that is the kind of help I was trying to give.
Click to expand...

You're reding to fast, not trying to understand enough and looking for something to criticize.

Contained in above was the instructions repeated several times to (with crank alone installed) "Spin the crank by the pulley"

Had he read more or more of TBs corps of professional engine builders had been on their toes, he would have read somewhere "once the pan is off, pull one main like 1 or2 main and look at bottom shell"

And "spin the crank without the pistons on." Does it turn 1 1/2 or 2 turns? If yes , everything is fine".

And he would have read "upon assembly, spin the crank by hand after each main cap is snugged up good..Then kinda torue 'em all and then spin".

I've written, said and posted that scores of times..

A) I didn't catch where he said he was a 16 y.o. with no money...I try to avoid wasting time with any dreamers period and especially those under 40.
I apologize.

If you are whining about me saying "shurrup with-a diz useless fappery about piston grade" then no, I'm not sorry..
I really mean that part: shurrup already. It is HELP, just "truthisms".

It still remains to hear back from the boy with a photo of the box the manins came in..THERE lies the answer.
 
No I feel like you missed the point of helping a kid that said it was very low budget and was trying to point that out to you.

No criticism of anyone intended.
 
dl242gt said:
No I feel like you missed the point of helping a kid that said it was very low budget and was trying to point that out to you.

No criticism of anyone intended.
Click to expand...

I said i din't notice it was a 16 y.o. I would not have said a single word had i noticed that..
ALL talk with ALL 16y.o., broke or not, is wasteful.

I did say spin it..that costs no money.

I would have said to an adult in same boat to do those steps and EXAMINE the bearings after serious and careful washing with hot water and dishsoap.. " Do the look all nice and even medium grey with just some darker ppo by the part line? Then they are FINE...save your money"

That is cheaper than buying bearings, fukking that up, installing them and then discovering you bought wrong size..

Why are you admonishing or commenting to me and not ALL the others who just blabbered general blabbey stuff?

How many times must I write out all the same stuff about filling in between the lines of the manual? I've done it scores of times, said it hundreds of times.. When is enough?
 
To the PO: If you're really 16yo, you write very well and have an impressive understanding of engines already.

While waiting for new bearings, you can compare your old rods/bearings to your non-fitting ones to help confirm what happened (assuming you didn't throw them out already -- good lesson here, don't throw anything away until new parts are fully working).

If the old rod bearings are not chewed up, go ahead and try installing and plastigaging them. You'll learn the art of torquing rods with no crank rotation (if the crank rotates, the plastigage smears and falsely reads as tighter clearance). Then, when the new bearings arrive, you can compare old vs. new clearance to better understand how your engine, and especially #1, wore. A strip of Green plastigage is ~$3 at any auto parts store, and is more than enough to check one engine.
 
Wow guys didn't mean to stir up so much conflict Jeeze. I turned the crank pulley without the pistons on and it turns fine I'm sure the problem was the wrong sized bearings. And for anyone who needs clarification, this is not supposed to be a super reliable, high spending project, this was simply something I did for myself because I wanted to learn more about engines and possibly have a fun car at the end of it. If I wanted something reliable I wouldn't have paid $500 CAD for a slapping turbo wagon. And just because I'm 16 shouldn't really affect anything, like I know all of you are much more experienced than me but I'm just trying to learn. I've already gotten enough people telling me I wasted my money on an ugly car that will never run so all I'm asking for is some help and support. Anyways, I'm still waiting on the new bearings and I'm very excited to get them. I don't care if this thing dies in 20 km or 100 000 km I just want to be able to say I got it running haha. And for the guy talkin about pistons, the piston I swapped in came from a 90+ b230ft (engine I got the rods from). Thanks to those who are trying to help, it is greatly appreciated.
 
Looks like they're both 8.7:1.

Good luck with the project! It seems like you're being cautious enough, and if you blow it up in the first 5k you know how to rebuild another one better. You certainly have more experience than me by now. :nod:
 
While waiting for your new bearings, ask around and see if any of your friends or friends' parents is a car guy with real engine rebuild experience AND a set of precision measurement tools AND the skill to use them. You'd like to find someone with a set of micrometers and a dial bore gauge, or quality telescoping bore gauges. Offer them pizza and a refreshing beverage if they'll come over once you get your new bearings and show you how to do a tolerance stackup of the crank journal dimension + bearing thickness + big end rod dimension. This is the professional way of checking the tolerances versus the easier, but not so precise, plastigage method.

Most amateur car guys will be glad to help out and share their knowledge. Putting the engine back together is the fun part; cleaning all the parts and doing engine R&R are not. Seriously, if you find the right person, they'll pay you for the fun! OK, maybe not, but most folks would really enjoy this part of the rebuild.
 
Noted, honestly I don't really have any close friends who's parents are into cars. I've mostly been on my own this whole journey I'm like 90% self taught haha. But if I do happen to find someone I will for sure see if they'll help me out. Otherwise it looks like pastigauge is the only other option.
 
There are also two different types of crank bearings (in addition to the numerous size options) and the crossover is right at the 87 year model.

The earlier type has thrust control for the crank in the center crank journal. There are actually notches cut into the sides of the third (?) crank bearing journal for thrust washers.

The late model block has a saddle bearing on number five.

If you installed the late model bearings in a early model block and *DID NOT* actually turn the crank over... inspect the crank at journal number five for damage.

Then, if NO scoring exists:

- use light emory cloth on the crank
- install the correct bearings (with plastigage)
- check clearances/ make corrections
- assemble
- profit

(If you did actually install the wrong bearings AND turned the crank at all... I suggest a trip to the machine shop)
 
Would have been a lot easier to get that whole '90 short block intact and swap it in than to pull the rods out of it and swap rods. Seriously, a stock non-screwed-with engine with the 9mm rods is better than one that has been torn apart and had rods replaced by someone who is not experienced at engine rebuilding. I mean I get it that you've gotta start somewhere, but been there, done that when I was a kid and it never ended well.
 
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