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Does anyone think these IC's actually work well? A holiday Bondo rant.

:lol: @ 1 - Its not a money thing, its a mindset thing
:lol: @ 2 - my 740 cost me $500, next question?

its cyclical because you can't get your collective heads out of your collective asses long enough to figure anything out. You think thepriest has tons of money tied up in his car? You think sam had a ton of money tied up in his 11 second 244? you probably spent more on that stupid vw of yours than he had tied up in the whole car.

how much do you really think it would cost to replicate my car? or Ken Lanham's? How much does that intercooler cost when you have to replace it later because its a restriction? and then maybe re-do your intercooler piping as well?
It's not money. I rocked a stock bottom end with a $400 set of rods for two years on a car that got nothing but run hard and put up wet. I'm still using the same block I was using six years ago. Hell I bought 90% of the stuff that's on my car now when I still qualified for #1.

So, what's your excuse? Aside from cranial-rectal-impaction?

I'd like an exact dollar breakdown/build sheet for your car, preferably in XLS format. Thanks! :)

My VW was $1200 all said and done (car with mods), not counting $125 for 2 sets of slicks (8 used/mismatced) and $150 for a set of track wheels (15x6.5, 5.8kg/ea, lots of rash on them). Just in case you thought I had more into it. ;)
 
I couldn't come up with any useful pictures of my International truck IC. I like the end tanks and I thought about having a new core welded to the tanks. The existing core is in bad shape...lots of fins were bent/broken/missing on the front. About 1" deep around the middle where the fins are missing.

http://www.pbase.com/towerymt/image/99841052.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/towerymt/image/99841048.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/towerymt/image/111755772.jpg

For now I bought this new for $75, and I bought some aluminum elbows to have welded on. Almost seems like a waste of time/money now, but I don't want to use 90? silicone, and I already have 3" reducers, so I'll give this a shot. I want to open up the possibility of a wider radiator, and I just can't fit the 940 n/a rad between the end tanks of the Intl. IC.

http://www.pbase.com/towerymt/image/107689548.jpg

How much is one of the 'good' cores, say 24x12x3?
 
I'd like an exact dollar breakdown/build sheet for your car, preferably in XLS format. Thanks! :)

Burn those bridges baby!

Burn baby burn :twisted:

I've been to the junkyard with Kenny and Sam.

I've also ridden in Kenny's 16v monster.

I think you know little of which you speak. Stand at attention when the Captain is on deck :zeeall:
 
In no particular oder over the course of 6 years:
$250 for the tial 38mm
$250 for the tail 55mm bov
$250 for whatever intercooler is on it now. Prior to that, it was an NPR
$200 for the head (traded for a 531, which cost me 200 at the time)
$250 for the exhaust manifold parts
$350 for the intake manifold parts
$250 for the injectors
$150 for the current megasquirt (offset by the sale of the previous megasquirt, so say, add $200 for that)
$500 for the car
$80 for the 3inch exhaust that has remained the same for going on 5 years now
$400 for a genuwine garrett T67/T3
$350 for the cams
$100 for the lifters
$60 for lash caps
$60 for the current aw71
$300 in machine work on this last rebuild
$100 for the 2.5 crankshaft
$1100 for the overkill on the fuel system (pumps, tank, lines, fittings regulator brackets, everything)
$120 for the SD turbo timing belt kit. Think that covers the current setup.
$200 nitrous kit

The previous 500hp setup was done with:
$400 for rods
$250 for the tial 38mm
$250 for whatever intercooler is on it now. Prior to that, it was an NPR
$200 for the head (traded for a 531, which cost me 200 at the time)
$250 for the exhaust manifold parts
$350 for the intake manifold parts
$250 for the injectors
$150 for the current megasquirt (offset by the sale of the previous megasquirt, so say, add $200 for that)
$500 for the car
$80 for the 3inch exhaust that has remained the same for going on 5 years now
$400 for a genuwine garrett T67/T3
Whatever a walbro 255 cost back in 04
$200 nitrous kit

350-380 whp setup:
stock bottom end
$250 for the tial 38mm
free intercooler piping that included a dsm bov (thanks mark!)
$200 NPR
$200 for the head (traded for a 531, which cost me 200 at the time). Stock head stock cams stock intake manifold.
$250 for the exhaust manifold parts
$500 for the car
$80 for the 3inch exhaust that has remained the same for going on 5 years now
$500 for a brand new from garrett t3/t4 50 trim.
$200 for the megasquirt setup.
~ $1k for the t5 swap that I later sold.

I've had over half of this stuff since '03. two years ago the big purchase was intake manifold parts and a set of internals.
Last year there was almost nothing spent on the car. Oh wait no, I bought the cams last december.
Had the crank sitting around for around four years now.

Add another $1500 to the top for the th350 swap, and then you can add at least another 100-150 whp at the same time. Is that a lot of money to **** at once? sure. Which is why I've been rolling in this direction for years now. I can afford to spend way more on the car, but its not (for me) just an exercise in spending money. I have an evo for that.
 
L8 Apeks, you're a douche. Go QQ in OT about not having the money to try to get the best performance out of every part in your motor. And Merry Christmas.


Bondo:

IMO, endtank design only starts to be a real concern when you approach the limit of how much heat the most used part of the intercooler (ie where the air is most likely to flow inside the intercooler) can efficiently transfer away from the charge air. That said, spreading the heat out over the greatest area would provide the most benefit, but with diminishing returns. A sufficiently large enough sized intercooler might not notice any gains from improvement of the endtanks if the fraction of the core already in use already meets the needs of the motor.

This goes back to the science of determining what size intercooler is necessary for you application. I suppose you could opt for a larger surface area if your endtank design was less than optimal or a smaller surface area if you could effectively use it with proper endtanks.

So now... how big is big enough? How much bigger does it have to be if you have poor endtanks?
 
If you want to further be insulted by your collective lack of production, I offer the build list for sam's 244--

$300 b230ft
$150 megasquirt
$200 t3/t4 50 trim
$100 3 inch exhaust (if that.. it was scrap pieces pieced together)
NPR-he traded something for it
$150 nitrous kit
$50 eaton G80 (pullapart)
scrap aluminum for the intercooler piping
turbo fuel pump (junk yard)
hm.. not sure what the blow off valve was. we'll say $200 for that
car cost $300
free aw71L (I had a spare)

we used and abused it for two years, car saw countless low 13 to low 12 second passes. Nothing fancy. car is still running around with the same engine.

and in case anyone was wondering, I called the civic's owner. the change, swapping to a precision core over the ebay 3inch (from 5 years ago) was a 70whp change and the boost was lower.
 
and in case anyone was wondering, I called the civic's owner. the change, swapping to a precision core over the ebay 3inch (from 5 years ago) was a 70whp change and the boost was lower.

niice, the ebay coolers are certainly worth the little money they cost but i think i am due for an upgrade. i'd like to see 400whp in 2010.
 
In no particular oder over the course of 6 years:
$250 for the tial 38mm
$250 for the tail 55mm bov
$250 for whatever intercooler is on it now. Prior to that, it was an NPR
$200 for the head (traded for a 531, which cost me 200 at the time)
$250 for the exhaust manifold parts
$350 for the intake manifold parts
$250 for the injectors
$150 for the current megasquirt (offset by the sale of the previous megasquirt, so say, add $200 for that)
$500 for the car
$80 for the 3inch exhaust that has remained the same for going on 5 years now
$400 for a genuwine garrett T67/T3
$350 for the cams
$100 for the lifters
$60 for lash caps
$60 for the current aw71
$300 in machine work on this last rebuild
$100 for the 2.5 crankshaft
$1100 for the overkill on the fuel system (pumps, tank, lines, fittings regulator brackets, everything)
$120 for the SD turbo timing belt kit. Think that covers the current setup.
$200 nitrous kit
$5020 over 72 months = $70 a month.
The previous 500hp setup was done with:
$400 for rods
$250 for the tial 38mm
$250 for whatever intercooler is on it now. Prior to that, it was an NPR
$200 for the head (traded for a 531, which cost me 200 at the time)
$250 for the exhaust manifold parts
$350 for the intake manifold parts
$250 for the injectors
$150 for the current megasquirt (offset by the sale of the previous megasquirt, so say, add $200 for that)
$500 for the car
$80 for the 3inch exhaust that has remained the same for going on 5 years now
$400 for a genuwine garrett T67/T3
Whatever a walbro 255 cost back in 04
$200 nitrous kit
$3805 over 60 months= $63 a month
350-380 whp setup:
stock bottom end
$250 for the tial 38mm
free intercooler piping that included a dsm bov (thanks mark!)
$200 NPR
$200 for the head (traded for a 531, which cost me 200 at the time). Stock head stock cams stock intake manifold.
$250 for the exhaust manifold parts
$500 for the car
$80 for the 3inch exhaust that has remained the same for going on 5 years now
$500 for a brand new from garrett t3/t4 50 trim.
$200 for the megasquirt setup.
~ $1k for the t5 swap that I later sold.
$1980 over 32 months=$62 a month
I've had over half of this stuff since '03. two years ago the big purchase was intake manifold parts and a set of internals.
Last year there was almost nothing spent on the car. Oh wait no, I bought the cams last december.
Had the crank sitting around for around four years now.

Add another $1500 to the top for the th350 swap, and then you can add at least another 100-150 whp at the same time. Is that a lot of money to **** at once? sure. Which is why I've been rolling in this direction for years now. I can afford to spend way more on the car, but its not (for me) just an exercise in spending money. I have an evo for that.
If you want to further be insulted by your collective lack of production, I offer the build list for sam's 244--

$300 b230ft
$150 megasquirt
$200 t3/t4 50 trim
$100 3 inch exhaust (if that.. it was scrap pieces pieced together)
NPR-he traded something for it
$150 nitrous kit
$50 eaton G80 (pullapart)
scrap aluminum for the intercooler piping
turbo fuel pump (junk yard)
hm.. not sure what the blow off valve was. we'll say $200 for that
car cost $300
free aw71L (I had a spare)
$1250 over 12 months= $105 a month.

Cost over time for context.

Kenny+Kenny> Sean (L8APEX)
 
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I just gotta say here, I make 15K a year because I work part-time and go to school. Even I know that a fast brick can be had for cheap (and who the hell am I). You just have to be willing to learn how to do everything yourself that doesn't require a machine shop... and have a driveway, which is something I don't have. :-P
 
Well precisions end tanks look pretty damn similar to chinabay.

quartet-b.jpg
 
This is like a trip down memory lane....


12312556.jpg


12664008.jpg


12664012.jpg



Good to see Kenny back after quitting the forum a couple weeks ago. :lol:

Merry Christmas everyone. :wave:

KTP
 
So whats the problem with the ebay intercooler. Is it the core or the tanks? I was under the impression that the core design was pretty standard tube and fin design that everyone is using.

I'm trying to figure out where the money is most wisely spent for a future cooler. I considered starting with ebay cooler, and making different end tanks. But not if the core is junk.

Here is some data I have measured. I know my NPR intercooler is probably not helping my performance. I have put a boost gauge on the intake and outlet ends of my intercooler and the pressure drop is as high as 3 psi at 20psi boost. The intake air temps are always stable. The NPR is grand in that respect. It is pretty hard to gain even 20 degrees above ambient with several laps around a road course. But it is sacrificing some flow for cooling ability. That 3 psi translates into the turbo working harder than it should, and taking more energy to spin the turbine, which comes from more backpressure in the exhaust. Id like a "better flowing" intercooler for my next unit.
 
Well precisions end tanks look pretty damn similar to chinabay.

quartet-b.jpg

The one in the back is starting to look like the Chinese one, but the inlet/outlet is still more centered. Also, the Precision endtanks seem to have a smoother transition between the inlet/outlet and the actual endtank. I don't think more than a few centimeters are necessary to really change the way the air flows.
 
This is like a trip down memory lane....
Good to see Kenny back after quitting the forum a couple weeks ago. :lol:

I threatened to leave. I never actually left. Your forum is at the bottom of the list, you should go back there where you have something to offer :-P

So whats the problem with the ebay intercooler. Is it the core or the tanks? I was under the impression that the core design was pretty standard tube and fin design that everyone is using.

its all junk actually. they are bar and plate, which from a thermal mass is better than the extremely light tube and fin that's oem for volvo. But they play games with the density of the internal 'fins' and the types of metal, etc, and they've gotten a lot better at it. a couple years ago the cores were a lot better than they are now. I'm ditching the core on mine in favor of a garrett core, but mine had better end tanks from the get go. (you know, since some people listen to other people who've been there and done that, and it was suggested to me some five years ago, that if I got an intercooler with better end tanks it would flow and cool better.. and it has. Kinda funny..). For your car ken, I would recommend the same sort of intercooler that I'm going to be running.. hit me up on IM and I'll pass the $#'s along.. I think you'll be pretty shocked. Cores are cheap.

Well precisions end tanks look pretty damn similar to chinabay.

quartet-b.jpg

I wouldn't run those end tanks on my stuff. there are better cast end tanks (HKS) and a LOT better sheet metal end tanks even for the 'straight through' design of intercooler.
 
i have a cx racing intercooler and have had great boost and never has failed mine is a 31 12 3 and it fits right in and i have posted on this before it flows better then the npr and is cheaper lile l8 apex says . but it fits right in no cutting and everybody likes the way it fits right in and takes up the hole space in the air dam
 
So whats the problem with the ebay intercooler. Is it the core or the tanks? I was under the impression that the core design was pretty standard tube and fin design that everyone is using.

I'm trying to figure out where the money is most wisely spent for a future cooler. I considered starting with ebay cooler, and making different end tanks. But not if the core is junk.

Here is some data I have measured. I know my NPR intercooler is probably not helping my performance. I have put a boost gauge on the intake and outlet ends of my intercooler and the pressure drop is as high as 3 psi at 20psi boost. The intake air temps are always stable. The NPR is grand in that respect. It is pretty hard to gain even 20 degrees above ambient with several laps around a road course. But it is sacrificing some flow for cooling ability. That 3 psi translates into the turbo working harder than it should, and taking more energy to spin the turbine, which comes from more backpressure in the exhaust. Id like a "better flowing" intercooler for my next unit.

Mine was bar and plate.

Nothing is "wrong" with them. They simply aren't as "nice" as a $900 Spearco unit with better shaped end tanks.

They were $150 when I bought mine (31x18x3). They are $75 now. :omg: You really can't beat the value. You can poke around several car boards and find people using them in high boost applications making more HP than any of us on TB will ever make.

I did pick up considerable trap speed when I installed mine, FWIW.
 
What is the prefered location for the endtanks? I see the fleebay one had both endtanks across from each other upto (or downlow?). Furthermore, that picture of Kenny up there has the endtanks in the middle, across from each other. Finally there have been a couple pictures with one endtank up top and one downlow.

Personally it makes sense in my head to have one uptop and one downlow that way the air would take longer to go through the system and thus cooling more? Is this correct or am I missing something?

What's the generally prefered method or are there more factors to take into account?
 
Mine was bar and plate.

Nothing is "wrong" with them. They simply aren't as "nice" as a $900 Spearco unit with better shaped end tanks.

They were $150 when I bought mine (31x18x3). They are $75 now. :omg: You really can't beat the value. You can poke around several car boards and find people using them in high boost applications making more HP than any of us on TB will ever make.

I did pick up considerable trap speed when I installed mine, FWIW.

so then a 12% increase in horsepower, with no other changes, isn't worth the extra couple hundred bucks?.. well maybe down at your level that's not a big deal.
 
What's funny JB is I still think the powerstroke IC is one of the nicest IC designs out there. :rofl:


The side in/out is also common since it's convenient for front mounting in imports, and what is funny is it's fine for cores that are only 5-6" tall (which is where I'm sure the precision tanks were borne out of). But that gets to be less and less appropriate the taller the core gets. Doesn't mean it doesn't work, it just means you aren't distributing airflow evenly over the entire surface of the core. Like DBH correctly points out though- the downside of such a design deficiency might not be noticeable in many cases, because the intercooler has enough capacity even with sub-optimal end tanks to get the charge air pretty close to ambient.

All I am saying is that you will make the best use out of any core, and will be able to do the most heat exchanging vs. weight and surface area, if the end tanks are design with a mind for even distribution.

Yes it's not the kind of thing thew average guy thinks about or cares about, but some of us do.

Another nice one - Spearco 335i intercooler:

330ci1.jpg


A Garrett with an improved side inlet/outlet (better setup imo):
ATP-INT-010_450-2.jpg


Tha point I was going to make regarding money was the same as Bama Kenny's -

If you can afford to lease a new Hyundai Accent, you can afford the loan needed to build my car. You by no means need to be a baller to be able to lease a Hyundai econobox.
Rent a workshop in the sticks or in a ****ty part of town and get to it.

Otherwise if you're really that poor, then again, no need to post saying "but I'm too poor to do that!" - it's irritating and adds nothing to the subject at hand.

You guys talk like we're cuising around in our Vipers with all of our big Mr. T gold chains on or swimming in our vaults of money like Scrooge McDuck when we aren't modding our Volvo's. :doh:

Towery thanks for the International pics- i think yours is the same as mine. The fins in the core are definitely very flimsy, yet it weighs like a million pounds. They are wierd but I like 'em.

I agree the tanks would work nice transplanted onto a 12" tall bar and plate core - even a chinese one, probably.
 
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