home register FAQ memberlist calendar

Go Back   Turbobricks Forums > Mechanical > maintenance & nonperformance

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-02-2017, 05:37 PM   #1
J_Jones
Board Member
 
J_Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Default I want A/C, help me devise a game plan

1987 240 with original a/c system. Has (1) recently added port on the back of the compressor which I am assuming is an r-134 port. I poked the needle valve with my finger and there is pressure in there + some neon green stuff. I replaced some crappy wiring and the thermostat switch with capillary tube and the a/c now cuts on when I turn it from 0 > results in no cold air but no crazy noises either.

I have no idea what I am doing and seeking guidance. I am considering ordering either an r12 alternative redtek or duracool kit to try and charge it. I know Impvolvo has some red/blue a/c lines that he said I could use to charge it as well if I got the stuff.

On the flip side, a shop said that they could charge it with r134 for ~$180.

Since there is pressure in there, I am assuming it is not leaking.

That's where I am at. I completely new to messing with A/C systems but this is the fiance's vehicle and it needs to work.

Suggestions and guidance are greatly appreciated.
J_Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2017, 06:20 PM   #2
M.H. Yount
Board Member
 
M.H. Yount's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Charlotte, NC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Jones View Post

Since there is pressure in there, I am assuming it is not leaking.
All pressure indicates is that some portion of whatever was in there is still in there. Doesn't mean that it doesn't have a leak somewhere. The neon green stuff is usually leak detector.
__________________
'82 242 6.2L; '17 Mazda3; '16 CrossTrek
M.H. Yount is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2017, 06:48 PM   #3
J_Jones
Board Member
 
J_Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by M.H. Yount View Post
All pressure indicates is that some portion of whatever was in there is still in there. Doesn't mean that it doesn't have a leak somewhere. The neon green stuff is usually leak detector.
Good to know. I've seen that you have posted in quite a few a/c threads and know a lot about them. Would you suggest going to a shop and getting the system drained and set on vacuum to assess for leaks? Should I replace all seals first?
J_Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2017, 07:06 PM   #4
KeizerBrickGuy
Board Member
 
KeizerBrickGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Keizer, OR
Default

Seeing as how it doesn't have a complete charge; it would be safer to take it to a shop and have it evacuated and put under a vacuum to show any leaks if they're there. If it checks out, then you can go into recharging.
__________________
-Stephen
Quote:
Originally Posted by 87_240TURBO View Post
#mclovethesenuts

-My car: White 1991 244, 308k miles. B230F LH2.4, AW70, R134a retro. Thrush glasspack, anthracite refinished Coronas
-Wife's car: White 1990 244DL, T cam, 190k miles.B230F LH2.4, AW70 w/aux cooler, Duracool AC, purple refinished Virgos, tow hitch, ipd wagon overload springs.
-PSM 2002 Subaru WRX wagon: 120k miles, Perrin TBE, Perrin turbo inlet, intake, and Y-pipe, GrimmSpeed cross pipe.
Rebuilding EJ207 shortblock to swap in this summer.
KeizerBrickGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2017, 07:30 PM   #5
PeaceEngineered
Sarcastic Optimist
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Evanston, IL
Default

We would often add the dye because pulling a vacuum may not show the leak as well as working pressures with dye. If it were me, I would add a bit until the proper pressures are met on the gauge versus the ambient conditions. This is if you feel comfortable doing it. This would be the least expensive route to see if it will kick on, let it run, and black light the system.
Now that said, a lot of DIY refrigerant has dye in it too. Either way, something was added to the system for a reason. Finding the leak before paying a shop to put r134a in it would be prudent.
__________________
1989 245 'Angry Moose' 5.0 GT-40 with T5 transmission.
2009 S80 Interim Road Trip Car

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack View Post


I don’t know how to respond.
PeaceEngineered is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2017, 08:20 PM   #6
nel621
Board Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Default

Isn't the PAG oil green?
nel621 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2017, 09:21 PM   #7
thebornotaku
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
 
thebornotaku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Rohnert Park, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nel621 View Post
Isn't the PAG oil green?
PAG by itself is basically just mineral oil to the extent of my knowledge and is typically clear or slightly yellow.

Green tinted PAG oil is usually the stuff with UV dye included in it. A lot of over-the-parts-counter A/C products come with some manner of UV dye in them to make leak detection easier for home mechanics. Some of the most common R-134a cans I see sold at my work are the ones that are "all-in-one" refrigerant, oil and dye together.
__________________
1974 Volkswagen Super Beetle "Diego"
1986 Volvo 244DL M47 "Turd Ferguson"
2009 Volkswagen Rabbit 2.5 "Snowbunny"
thebornotaku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2017, 09:41 PM   #8
Cwazywazy
Board Member
 
Cwazywazy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Granby CT
Default

Yeah, I'd charge it up to proper pressure and see what happens. Use a black light at night to check for leaks.
Cwazywazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2017, 10:25 PM   #9
J_Jones
Board Member
 
J_Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Default

Thanks to everyone for their input.

Seems like the majority consensus is to charge it, see if it works, and look for leaks. I think that this is a good plan. If you think about it, I could go get it drained and then filled for ~$200 only to have it leak and be out that amount. On the other hand, if I charge it myself and it leaks I am only out about ~$30. I would then have to fix the leaks and then go get it drained and refilled, hopefully problem solved.

Now as far as charging it, should I grab one of the r134 cans from the auto stores or something that is r12a/r134 like redtex or duracool? I have no idea what is currently in the system. One would assume that since the r134 conversion fitting is on the back of the compressor that the system was fully drained and then filled with r134, but perhaps not. Might be a mix of both in there.
J_Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2017, 10:33 PM   #10
smeha
Tranny Whisperer
 
smeha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: California
Default

1) Fill with 134 if it holds pressure (use black light if it had leak dye in it) OR give it to shop to test pressure properly
2) Drain all freon and vacuum whole system and fill with r12+easter oil at the proper AC shop
3) Enjoy
Recently restored 10+ years old non working R12 system in my brick
__________________
1988 Volvo 245DL (Engine: B230F) (Transmission: AW70) (Fuel Injection: LH 2.2) (Brakes: Non-ABS) (Paint code: 189-2) (Dank memes)
Quote:
I've been molested by a guy who happened to own 7 and 9 series
Quote:
Originally Posted by darksider415 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack View Post
No homo
It's okay, I'll homo for you.
smeha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2017, 11:32 PM   #11
Cwazywazy
Board Member
 
Cwazywazy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Granby CT
Default

R12 gives best performance but it's also the most expensive. If you fill with R134 make sure there's ester in the system, which it should if it was converted. I used Envirosafe (One of many r12/r134 replacements) which is supposedly better than using R134 in an R12 system. Paid ~$30 for a set of 3 cans with an oil charge and stop leak. (Probably not a good idea to use the stop leak.) So far so good. The system in my '88 takes 2.5 of the 6oz cans.
Cwazywazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2017, 11:59 PM   #12
aendrody
Just gonna send it
 
aendrody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Houston
Default

I have always vacuumed and added PAG 46 UV oil. I've got it a little easier having a refrigerant machine. You may need to add a little LESS 134 than the R-12 capacity to get the pressures right. I have also cranked the expansion valve down a few turns.

Last edited by aendrody; 05-03-2017 at 11:33 AM.. Reason: Flubbed it
aendrody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2017, 10:06 AM   #13
PeaceEngineered
Sarcastic Optimist
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Evanston, IL
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by smeha View Post
1) Fill with 134 if it holds pressure (use black light if it had leak dye in it) OR give it to shop to test pressure properly
2) Drain all freon and vacuum whole system and fill with r12+easter oil at the proper AC shop
3) Enjoy
Recently restored 10+ years old non working R12 system in my brick
In the shops I ran, if there was a gross leak the cause could typically be found. However, if it was down only a small amount dye was added, charged,and the customer was sent on their way to return in a few days to black light. The dye shows ALL the leaks. It gets very expensive paying flat rate to have a tech run the sniffer over every bit, and even then false readings occur or not detected at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aendrody View Post
I have always vacuumed and added PAG 46 UV oil. I've got it a little easier having a refrigerant machine. You may need to add a little more 134 than the R-12 capacity to get the pressures right. I have also cranked the expansion valve down a few turns.
Nice to have a machine at your disposal! Please do tell of this expansion valve modification. Any different pressure readings or do you shoot for a certain change in temperature?
PeaceEngineered is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2017, 10:15 AM   #14
FezMonki
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Italy
Default

The hell? 200$ for an R134 charge is normal over the pond?
Here it's 50 flat rate on any vehicle in standard shops, except R12 that you need to know a guy that knows a guy that still has that lying around to overcharge you.
__________________
Looking for S90 fat armrest.
FezMonki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2017, 11:06 AM   #15
aendrody
Just gonna send it
 
aendrody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Houston
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeaceEngineered View Post
Nice to have a machine at your disposal! Please do tell of this expansion valve modification. Any different pressure readings or do you shoot for a certain change in temperature?
On the expansion valve, there is an Allen fitting inside the bottom of the valve. I usually turn it in 1.5 to 2 turns. That raises the pressure slightly. It will take a little LESS R134 if you do this (I said more before but I was wrongo). I would also suggest changing out oils for PAG 46 oil. This puts low side pressure around 35-40psi and high side around 150-200psi.
aendrody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2017, 09:56 PM   #16
To old for this
Board Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Texas Panhandle
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aendrody View Post
On the expansion valve, there is an Allen fitting inside the bottom of the valve. I usually turn it in 1.5 to 2 turns. That raises the pressure slightly. It will take a little LESS R134 if you do this (I said more before but I was wrongo). I would also suggest changing out oils for PAG 46 oil. This puts low side pressure around 35-40psi and high side around 150-200psi.
I don't remember where I learned this trick and yes it does help. I turn it all the way in then back out 2 turns. Probably ends up at the same setting. One of my Volvo owners also bought a new 911 and complained about poor a/c. Dealer said it was as good as it gets. Being we helped his 242 he said do the 911. Tremendous help. He went back too the dealer and showed him the improvement. Not many days later I get a call from a engineer at Porsch wanting to know what I had done. He was firm in saying the expansion valve was not adjustable. I ask him if he had ever looked at one? He hung up on me. Soon the word got around to the local Porsche club and we did lots of up grades.
To old for this is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2017, 10:35 PM   #17
Wren
Porkchop Sandwiches
 
Wren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Athens, GA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nel621 View Post
Isn't the PAG oil green?
No, but DO NOT put PAG oil in a system that was previously used with R-12/mineral oil. Esther oil is the proper replacement for a conversion to R-134a.
Wren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 06:56 PM   #18
J_Jones
Board Member
 
J_Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Default

Update: I charged it with r134, had working a/c for 3 glorious minutes...and then the high side hose blew. That was scary, huge cloud of stuff and green goo everywhere. It was the stock high side hose with muffler on it that goes in front of the condenser. Now determined, I have just received a new four seasons high side hose (no muffler on this one), drier, and expansion valve; waiting on the complete seal kit to get here. Once I have everything in hand, going to go thru and replace those parts as well as every seal.

Few questions:
1. Any lube for the o-rings or install dry?
2. Can't find any shops that will/can do r12 so will be going with r134. I plan to find a happy medium between 1.5-2 turns in and all the way in with 2 turns out. Any other input on this?
3. Since I released the refrigerant and green goo, looks like I need to take it to the shop for vacuuming and then adding of the proper lubricant and refrigerant amounts. Correct thinking?

Thanks for all of the help, almost there!
J_Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2017, 07:15 PM   #19
Owsley
Board Member
 
Owsley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: San Francisco
Default

After chasing the a/c on my '87 240 for quite a while, my solution was to buy a newer car g
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack8745 View Post
I know it's hard to believe that someone wants (on turbobricks) to make things work the right way. My extensive search shows this hasn't happened since 2005 when there was a ziptie shortage and Tbrickers were forced to buy and use the correct parts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Athlon View Post
This is the only forum in existence where people get mad that their cars are worth more than 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnnysalt View Post
I don't know how to do anything, help! Whats the quickest easiest dumbass proof way to fix this besides taking it to someone who knows how?
Owsley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2017, 03:17 AM   #20
PeaceEngineered
Sarcastic Optimist
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Evanston, IL
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Jones View Post
Update: I charged it with r134, had working a/c for 3 glorious minutes...and then the high side hose blew. That was scary, huge cloud of stuff and green goo everywhere. It was the stock high side hose with muffler on it that goes in front of the condenser. Now determined, I have just received a new four seasons high side hose (no muffler on this one), drier, and expansion valve; waiting on the complete seal kit to get here. Once I have everything in hand, going to go thru and replace those parts as well as every seal.
Man. That stinks. Sorry to hear that, but at least the compressor is working!
Few questions:
1. Any lube for the o-rings or install dry?
Use a little oil of the same type that will be put in the recharge. R134a will be ester or PAG-no mineral oil!
2. Can't find any shops that will/can do r12 so will be going with r134. I plan to find a happy medium between 1.5-2 turns in and all the way in with 2 turns out. Any other input on this?
See above. This is new info to me too. Will give it a try myself though.
3. Since I released the refrigerant and green goo, looks like I need to take it to the shop for vacuuming and then adding of the proper lubricant and refrigerant amounts. Correct thinking?
Absolutely a vacuum. If you really want to do it correctly, you will flush all of the components- compressor, condenser, and evap core. Will take some effort, but ensures whatever was in there before does not contaminate your new stuff.

Thanks for all of the help, almost there!
Doing AC correctly is rarely quick or cheap. Sounds like you are willing to put in the effort though.
PeaceEngineered is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2017, 09:02 AM   #21
DET17
Reformed SAABaholic
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: NW Georgia
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeaceEngineered View Post
Doing AC correctly is rarely quick or cheap.
Exactly. I went thru an 8 month process trying to optimize AC function of my 93 Aerostar 4.0L. Already 134a converted....and condenser replaced when my daughter took a shovel thru the grille. New OEM NOS high/low side hoses, a thorough flush using a $50 flushing tool (your local auto parts sells this tool, add compressed air). Even with proper charge, what finally put my system into proper ops was a new thermostatic clutch fan. If you cannot get the heat OUT of the condenser, your head pressures will run TOO HIGH and you'll blow things apart. It never hurts to clean the condenser which is slathered with bugs and dirt.... that heat must be removed for proper ops. Now I've got 44*F coming out of my center vents.... Oh the JOY

You could look for the 91-93 front "pusher fan" and retrofit to your system. Check the schematics but I think the power for same comes off the bus right above your battery, the harness snakes thru the grille area and connects to the pressure switch on the high side line LEAVING the condenser but before your freon expansion. Might be there, might not on an 87? Considering my experience, I'd recommend this additional fan, as the OEM fan might not have enough capacity. The TROPICAL clutch fan might be just fine however. Talk to K-jets, the expert on that fan setup.
__________________
Project "cheap thrills" build thread: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showth...67#post4211467

Feedback thread: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=198746
DET17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2017, 02:58 AM   #22
James10952001
Board Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Woodinville, WA
Default

Don't just charge it up with something without knowing what's in there already, you really have to pump it down to a vacuum and then charge so you know how much it has.

I ran propane in the stock AC system on my 240 for a while until the expansion valve eventually failed so that's another option. I'm not going to advise you do this because it's not legal, but I will say that in my own experience it worked quite well. Yes, I know, it's flammable, but so is the gasoline that is running through pressurized lines, I'm just not concerned about 8oz of propane. My system had lost its charge years before and was empty, I pumped it out and charged it with some propane on a whim just to see if it would work and I was pleasantly surprised.
James10952001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2017, 03:35 AM   #23
Cwazywazy
Board Member
 
Cwazywazy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Granby CT
Default

Hell, you can even use a can of PC duster to charge an AC system.
Cwazywazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2017, 10:04 AM   #24
PeaceEngineered
Sarcastic Optimist
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Evanston, IL
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by James10952001 View Post
Don't just charge it up with something without knowing what's in there already, you really have to pump it down to a vacuum and then charge so you know how much it has.

I ran propane in the stock AC system on my 240 for a while until the expansion valve eventually failed so that's another option. I'm not going to advise you do this because it's not legal, but I will say that in my own experience it worked quite well. Yes, I know, it's flammable, but so is the gasoline that is running through pressurized lines, I'm just not concerned about 8oz of propane. My system had lost its charge years before and was empty, I pumped it out and charged it with some propane on a whim just to see if it would work and I was pleasantly surprised.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cwazywazy View Post
Hell, you can even use a can of PC duster to charge an AC system.
I am sure there are lots of gasses that could be used, but neither of you mention viable alternatives. Be kind to the next person that may work on the vehicle. No one is going to know what is in the system unless a chemical test is performed. If you read, OP does not have to worry with what is in there anymore.
PeaceEngineered is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2017, 09:40 AM   #25
Matt86
Board Member
 
Matt86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Atlanta, GA
Default

My 89 had a dead AC system when I bought the car, and according to the previous owner, the AC hadn't worked since the early 2000's. I thought about repairing the old 89 R12 system, but it seemed like every component was bad, including the evaporator. I did it the hard but smart way and bought a complete 93 240 parts car with a factory R134A System and swapped every component in to my 89, including the blower HVAC unit behind the dash. It now blows ice cold, colder then my 98 V70R.

The front mounted fan really helps when sitting in traffic, so on a 1990-older system I would think adding a front fan would really optimize the performance of the AC System.
__________________
1998 V70R
1989 245 DL
Matt86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:02 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.