home register FAQ memberlist calendar

Go Back   Turbobricks Forums > Mechanical > performance & modifications

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-15-2018, 02:14 PM   #51
blkaplan
50 shades of beige
 
blkaplan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Rockville, MD
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolzen View Post

These new bushings look like to be able to withstand tons of load, but the pivotal movement range might be quite a bit shorter. Here is the OEM part for reference.



So now the main question i guess is how it will affect the ride.
--
Apologizing for further hijacking the thread, i would move it to the proper department if i knew how.
If you want to educate yourself. pivot the stock control arms by hand and see how much force it takes. Install your poly bushing and then see how much force it takes,,, you might find answers for all those questions you have.
__________________
www.BEIGEPOWER.com
Kaplhenke Racing Facebook
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkKratoz View Post
The only safe bet is Ben.©
blkaplan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2018, 02:24 PM   #52
blkaplan
50 shades of beige
 
blkaplan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Rockville, MD
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolzen View Post
You can't be serious now.

[edit] removed redundancy
Yes, see... im not the only one who understands how poly works.
blkaplan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2018, 02:58 PM   #53
Bolzen
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blkaplan View Post
Yes, see... im not the only one who understands how poly works.
Yeah, i know that you like this movement to be controlled by the c/o strut not interfered with other suspension parts. Poly of course doesn't help much in this regard, since it has more shape memory and thus acts like a spring on its own And because it's a pivotal movement, that inner metal tube can not be of much use in this type of bushing. Is my assumption correct?

With my stock ride height this bushing might not cover the entire suspension travel, thus would be prone to excessive forces it is not designed for. Do i still follow the idea?

But if the car is lowered that amplitude might turn out to be just enough, mightn't. Because the lower height dramatically influences on stock bushing life this new one might just serve longer.
Bolzen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2018, 03:28 PM   #54
Lankku
Board Member
 
Lankku's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Finland
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blkaplan View Post
devil is in the details, your post lacks all of them.
So you know how long poly lasts in V70II? Bushings are in the same position and the control arm behaves similarly in both cars.

Stock rubber bushing is sloppy straight out of the box, I'd rather try poly. It's cheaper than the alternative, which is machining V70II rear bushing or similar to fit. Lasts 250-300k km or more depending on use.
__________________
444 -55, 145 Express -71,
242 DL -80 (was 4.6l)sold, 245 -88 "B6284T" sold, 245 -90 "B6284T", 965 -93 B6304, V90 -98

Last edited by Lankku; 11-15-2018 at 03:44 PM..
Lankku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2018, 04:29 PM   #55
Bolzen
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Default

Mind you, this is really a special bushing with the rotation axis at 90 ° to the insider tube! So Poly does not serve its usual purpose here. Me guess this is the sticking point.

Last edited by Bolzen; 11-15-2018 at 04:37 PM..
Bolzen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2018, 06:01 PM   #56
Lankku
Board Member
 
Lankku's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Finland
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolzen View Post
Mind you, this is really a special bushing with the rotation axis at 90 ° to the insider tube! So Poly does not serve its usual purpose here. Me guess this is the sticking point.
And that's why I'm referring to the V70II rear bushing. If only 960/V90 stock rear bushing would be solid rubber, there wouldn't be that much of a need for stiffer option. Not too uncommon in many small cars.

Didn't manage to find any experiences on the V70 Powerflex solid poly(might have had wrong search terms). Instead found SuperPro poly for V70 and it takes the rotation in to consideration. Center hole is smaller in the middle, giving more room for the rotation.
Lankku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2018, 06:58 PM   #57
Bolzen
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Default

Could be, however I can see many new stock parts are modified, but this particular bushing still come unchanged both from OEM and third-party suppliers, though think it would be easier just to make it one piece solid rubber.
Bolzen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 02:13 PM   #58
dm245
Board Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Louisville,Ky
Default

I could possibly have an interest in trying a set depending on price. I'm no expert on poly, but I do see a problem with the flexing. I agree that the rubber are junk out of the box.
__________________
DAVE previous- 83-242 DL, 84-242t, 83-245t, 92-965, 94-965, 94-855, 95-945, 91-780, 98-V70XC, 95-964
present- 91-745, 96-964, 87-635CSi
dm245 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 08:08 PM   #59
hikerguy
Board Member
 
hikerguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: nepa
Default

I'm on board if someone wants to start some sort of group buy setup. They've got to be better than any bushings on my car. With the limit parts availablity on these cars I'm kinda surprised more people aren't jumping at the opportunity to "once and done" that irs
__________________
+1/2 million miles of white block sitting in the drive way
hikerguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 10:41 PM   #60
Bolzen
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Default

The manufacturer made point that this type of bushing is usually ordered by drivers with AirRide or other suspension modifications who demanded harder material, and they were pretty happy with the product. It's been on the market for over a year now. Personally i don't have too many questions about other items in the line 'cause they look to be very well made indeed.

In my situation with the stock ride height this puck bushing might not work in full travel range, just as Ben mentioned. If it had exact same design as the OEM one but only implemented in PU, i would have no hesitation 'cause Poly is just better material, besides it has all the required flexibility for the application, so no worries about premature failure here. At least not for my part )

Another point i agree on is that PU would not be the best choice for the spherical bushing introduced earlier, for it might well be too soft. PTFE would likely be a better bet, but then it's hard to say how the car would feel with it, thou i see this type is not uncommon with other brands:



This setup is popular with offroad drivers too.
Bolzen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2018, 11:15 PM   #61
kendogg
V8 Guy
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Atlanta, GA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolzen View Post
The manufacturer made point that this type of bushing is usually ordered by drivers with AirRide or other suspension modifications who demanded harder material, and they were pretty happy with the product. It's been on the market for over a year now. Personally i don't have too many questions about other items in the line 'cause they look to be very well made indeed.

In my situation with the stock ride height this puck bushing might not work in full travel range, just as Ben mentioned. If it had exact same design as the OEM one but only implemented in PU, i would have no hesitation 'cause Poly is just better material, besides it has all the required flexibility for the application, so no worries about premature failure here. At least not for my part )

Another point i agree on is that PU would not be the best choice for the spherical bushing introduced earlier, for it might well be too soft. PTFE would likely be a better bet, but then it's hard to say how the car would feel with it, thou i see this type is not uncommon with other brands:



This setup is popular with offroad drivers too.


If poly is just 'better material' then why does 0 OEM or professional race team use it, anywhere? Poly is cheaper to mold, and is harder. Thats it. Higher durometer rubber takes actual R&D money, and is cost prohibitive for most of the aftermarket. Thats why Groupe N rubber pieces are typically very expensive - economies of scale for low volume production parts that were run in actual racecars. There is nothing 'better' about polyurethane in a large majority of automotive applications. Science & physics disagree with you.
kendogg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 01:59 AM   #62
Bolzen
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kendogg View Post
If poly is just 'better material' then why does 0 OEM or professional race team use it, anywhere? Poly is cheaper to mold, and is harder. Thats it. Higher durometer rubber takes actual R&D money, and is cost prohibitive for most of the aftermarket. Thats why Groupe N rubber pieces are typically very expensive - economies of scale for low volume production parts that were run in actual racecars. There is nothing 'better' about polyurethane in a large majority of automotive applications. Science & physics disagree with you.
And what on Earth is that supposed to mean -- the aftermarket is a downgrade to OEM? What aftermarket are you talking about -- URO, ScanTech, Optimal?

You also must have a 'Science' tattoo. And 'Physics' somewhere on the other side. Just kidding, but i like to speak for myself only )

PU:
- has superior wear resistance
- chemically more inert and so less susceptible to road grime and other contaminants that often include oil
- has better abrasion, impact and tear resistance
- elastomeric memory is better, means car stays aligned longer
- have very close flexibility to rubber, which in moving range of this application is fairly enough
- why, many performance parts are made of Poly, dunno where 0 number comes from..
Bolzen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 04:03 PM   #63
blkaplan
50 shades of beige
 
blkaplan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Rockville, MD
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolzen View Post
In my situation with the stock ride height this puck bushing might not work in full travel range, just as Ben mentioned. If it had exact same design as the OEM one but only implemented in PU, i would have no hesitation 'cause Poly is just better material, besides it has all the required flexibility for the application, so no worries about premature failure here. At least not for my part )

This is so wrong on so many levels. Copying the factory design in poly is just ignorance at its finest. Its not a better material. Its a different material. Its popular in the aftermarket because its cheap to pour and make molds with but its not a super material.
blkaplan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 04:35 PM   #64
Bolzen
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Default

Well, rubber bushing failing every 10k called a super material?
Bolzen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 04:50 PM   #65
Sander
Good news everyone!
 
Sander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: NL/DE
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolzen View Post
Well, rubber bushing failing every 10k called a super material?
That has more to do with the design of the bushing, instead of the material. What I imagine would work fine is just that bushing but solid rubber (normal hardness, nothing too crazy). Shouldn't be too hard to make. Would there be a market for something like that?
Sander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 05:41 PM   #66
Bolzen
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Default

Design is awful, and that's the reason i wish it were implemented in PU. Take a look at the Material Properties Chart. It's independent, it is unbiased, it is in fact a Science Rep, not only claimed. And tell why you would want rubber in that Bush.
Bolzen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 06:40 PM   #67
Bolzen
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Default

Here is the summary table of properties in more human language



The only time one rubber comes close is at very low temps, like -20 C and lower. So if it's a harsh winter vehicle only, then i would say nothing wrong to stay with rubber. In all other cases -- gimme that Poly!
Bolzen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 10:31 PM   #68
the poi
Meh
 
the poi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Pasadena, CA
Default

imma just swoop in here real quick--it's not that it's polyurethane, it's that it's stiffer. If it were a rubber bushing that was stiffer, it would also be bad.

that bushing is bad. I mean people will buy them, install them, and say they are a great upgrade. In all likelihood, the cars are so old they'll be off the road or crashed before the cyclic fatigue cracks a control arm or body mount. but, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
the poi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2018, 10:33 PM   #69
kendogg
V8 Guy
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Atlanta, GA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolzen View Post
And what on Earth is that supposed to mean -- the aftermarket is a downgrade to OEM? What aftermarket are you talking about -- URO, ScanTech, Optimal?

You also must have a 'Science' tattoo. And 'Physics' somewhere on the other side. Just kidding, but i like to speak for myself only )

PU:
- has superior wear resistance
- chemically more inert and so less susceptible to road grime and other contaminants that often include oil
- has better abrasion, impact and tear resistance
- elastomeric memory is better, means car stays aligned longer
- have very close flexibility to rubber, which in moving range of this application is fairly enough
- why, many performance parts are made of Poly, dunno where 0 number comes from..

You ignored nearly everything I said and started making things up - some of it the complete opposite of truth. Not saying you're lying. Just saying maybe you've taken your first materials properties class in school and are pleased with the amazing things you've learned, and need to take more to understand how things actually work? Have fun with your bushing. In an otherwise stock suspension, that poly bushing will most likely fail in a similar timeframe to the rubber bushing, but with a different failure mode. Can you tell me what that mode will be? (HINT: you probably can't).
kendogg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2018, 02:04 AM   #70
Bolzen
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by the poi View Post
imma just swoop in here real quick--it's not that it's polyurethane, it's that it's stiffer. If it were a rubber bushing that was stiffer, it would also be bad.
Hardness of UT starts only at 3 ShA higher than natural rubber, and the bushing is not made of softest grade, i.e. one can still make PU version as soft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kendogg View Post
Can you tell me what that mode will be? (HINT: you probably can't).
Can you?
--
Chill out, guys -- one positive outcome is that true connoisseurs and honored members are back, just as in g'old times. Isn't that nice?
Bolzen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2018, 07:41 AM   #71
hikerguy
Board Member
 
hikerguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: nepa
Default

Well carrying on like this is the kind of thing that creates a caustic and corrosive atmosphere leading to people being less likely to participate in the forum. But sure let's get into a pissing match about how others are spending their money
hikerguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2018, 05:34 PM   #72
blkaplan
50 shades of beige
 
blkaplan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Rockville, MD
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hikerguy View Post
Well carrying on like this is the kind of thing that creates a caustic and corrosive atmosphere leading to people being less likely to participate in the forum. But sure let's get into a pissing match about how others are spending their money
Caustic maybe, but its better than having misinformation posted with no one saying anything about it so someone who doesn't know better reads it as being true.

If everyone was nice and just let people roll with things that were wrong all the time we would be stuck in the stone ages.
blkaplan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2018, 11:18 PM   #73
Bolzen
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Default

That's right, with only one addition that everyone will remain of own opinion, until of course convinced otherwise which has not been the case yet.
Bolzen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2018, 02:19 PM   #74
classicswede
Volvo upgrades
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: North Wales
Default

There are voids in these poly bushes to help allow the arm to rotate as it is supposed to.
A steel bearing is going to provided better location and rotation at a cost to NVH, the poly is offering a reasonable compromise. Not perfect but certainly worth considering.
__________________
http://www.classicswede.co.uk/

classicswede is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:01 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.