home register FAQ memberlist calendar

Go Back   Turbobricks Forums > Mechanical > performance & modifications

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-23-2016, 11:19 PM   #1
tom1283
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: 29732
Default B230 16V NA Build

Don't know if this is the best place for this. Please move if it isn't.

I have an auto 92 245. Long term plan is to do a 16V B230 build and swap it in with a T5 manual at the same time. I'll be doing this in my free time with no real deadlines. Updates probably won't be that frequent.

I've got decent experience working on cars but have never had a reason to do an engine build or rebuild. This is my excuse to learn some things. I wanted to do a build thread to take all the advise I can get and hopefully leave behind some useful information.

Goals:
Reliable NA 200hp would be great. But main thing is to have usable powerband. I would rather keep decent low/mid torque if it meant losing it to get an extra 10hp at top end.

Initial Plan:
-B234f head.
-93 squirter B230 block
-I want to be able to run 87 octane so CR will probably have to be below 9.3:1
-MS3X using DSM CAS
-b234f intake modified with tapered log like most people here do to clear the brake booster
-I'll probably weld up my own 4-2-1 header setup. Try to do some math to get primary lengths and merge placement close. I'm tempted to run per cylinder O2 sensors on the primaries to give individual cylinder trim. The custom intake will make even cylinder distribution unlikely, so just work around it with tuning
-no real direction yet on crank, rods, pistons. I would love to do a Penta crank and go 2.5l but I don't think I can afford it

I've got a junkyard B234f already. I'll have a 93 B230 squirter block soon.




Tonight's minor triumph was not breaking any exhaust studs getting the manifold off. 7 out 9 were fused with rust and pulled the stud with the nut



Any input/advise welcome.
tom1283 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2016, 03:10 AM   #2
ZVOLV
<Master Tech>
 
ZVOLV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: California
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom1283 View Post
Updates probably won't be that frequent...

...Any input/advise welcome.
I advise you to keep it off jackstands for years and find a way to put a stock B234F in a 240, make it a runner, and then build from there. Otherwise, it's just keyboard poking.
__________________
No Start Thread
ZVOLV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2016, 09:09 PM   #3
tom1283
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: 29732
Default

From what I've read so far it'll be some custom engine mounts to fit the B234f in a 240. I'm also seeing that the oil pan will most likely need to be modified to clear the steering rack/cross member. I would still have to modify the intake to make it fit into a 240.

Either way continuing to tear down this engine. Hopefully no surprises.

Is it fairly normal for the cam cover to leak oil into the spark plug wells on the B234f heads? I don't have a lot in there but definitely some pooled up.

It's a bit rusty, must have sat at the junkyard for a while.



tom1283 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2016, 09:27 PM   #4
740atl
educator monkey
 
740atl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: south jersey
Default

I had a hell of a lot of fun with an na 16v 240 and a 5 speed getrag. It pulled 140 rwhp on the dyno.

Why decrease compression ratio? If you want NA power, you need to be moving the other direction. Is it really going to hurt you to run 93 octane and a bit more compression? At least get back to the stock 10:1.

With headers, perhaps a bit of luck you might get into the 165+ range with a stock setup but I would be really surprised if you got much beyond that without spending big money....... NA power comes from high RPM... cams... breathing. Consider resetting your sights?
740atl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2016, 10:46 PM   #5
tom1283
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: 29732
Default

I realize the 200hp was some wishful thinking. I'll be happy to get to 165hp. From there it'll depend on how much money I'm willing to throw at it to get more.

I'm cheap so paying more for 93 octane always bothers me. But you're right limiting myself to 87 octane compression ratios will be a hindrance on a NA motor.

Still early stages and I haven't really gotten my head around what I'm actually trying to achieve and how to do it. Lots to consider and the input is helpful.
tom1283 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2016, 11:38 AM   #6
Toine van der Laan
Newbie
 
Toine van der Laan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Amersfoort The Netherlands
Default

Just did the same thing in my 240 but used a 230f block and rebuild it around the b234 16v head.
Took me 3 days to build and 3 days to sort out parts , there is a FAQ thread with al information and I just added my 3 days of parts search.
He the same goal to reach 200 bhp N/A but will be adding a low pressure turbo later on.
My advise , buy a decent 230f with or without squirters an rebuild the bottom end with your 234 parts , don't try sticking in the 234 in a 240 it's just to messy.

1 tip , if you want to plug of the rear dissy , find a seal in the correct outside diameter and put an alu plate of around 4 mm in the correct diameter in the inside of the seal , Japanese motorcycles use this technique with a glass plate to show oil levels
Toine van der Laan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2016, 09:27 AM   #7
nordmaschine
forced instruction
 
nordmaschine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: The Balkans, BiH
Default

Why would you modify the pan? B230 and B234 have exactly the same pan.

200hp out of a 16v NA is pretty wishful thinking, especially for a first time engine builder. Consider yourself lucky if you get to 160hp thanks to standalone and manifolds. And that is if you stay with 10:1 CR...

It would cost less to build a 300hp 16v turbo. Or be happy with 150-ish n/a horses, which is fun and reliable in a 240. Or, prepare some serious cash. Can't have it all.
__________________
Jetronic is romantic.
- '94 965 - D̶2̶4̶T̶I̶C̶, then M̶5̶0̶B̶2̶5̶ now OM606.962.
- '90 744 turbo 16 valve LPG - B204GT/M90 - trophy w̶i̶f̶e̶ car.
- '89 764 B280F - Daily barge.
- Various 740's, 940's, 960's and a couple of 760's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjets On a Plane View Post
Whiteblocks
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralSenn View Post
I think I might be too stupid to own a car.
nordmaschine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2016, 10:11 PM   #8
Hoggster
Board Member
 
Hoggster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: NC
Default

Do the head swap and trans swap at different times. You don't want to get overwhelmed.

Putting a B234 head on a B230 is probably easier than putting a b234 in a 240.

I have to find the dyno sheet for my b234 lemons build. We kept getting a $0 residual value and put money into the engine. We had a MS, ported the head and fancy valve job, penta cams with adjustable gears, deleted the balance shafts, lightened the flywheel and some other stuff and had it dyno tuned. Our HP numbers were not very impressive though.
Hoggster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2016, 12:17 AM   #9
ZVOLV
<Master Tech>
 
ZVOLV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: California
Default

Looks like a pile of rusty parts to me.
ZVOLV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2016, 12:14 PM   #10
dragbrick780
Board Member
 
dragbrick780's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: las vegas
Default

200 na will require fuel management e85 and 11ish to 1 compression . it could be done with mostly stock stuff but compression will have to go up . b230f short block and if you can get away with no piston cuts thats a good start .
__________________
dragbrick780
dragbrick780 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2016, 12:28 PM   #11
mark244turbo
Board Member
 
mark244turbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Netherlands
Default

With a B230F shortblock, a B234F head, a less restictive air intake, a custom 4-2-1 header and a programmable ECU you should be able to make more than 200 hp.

A few other thing you can do are:
- Install a lightweight B21 flat flywheel + 240 turbo clutch, to reduce rotating mass
- Install ford 4.6 valve springs, so you can rev higher.
- Increase the rev-limit to 7000 rpm (to make more hp)
- Remove the casting marks inside the intake and exhaust ports.
- Port the inner radius at the intake side a ligthly to straighten the intake path.
- Do not enlarge the ports at the intake side, it will create more turbulence and reduce power.
- Install larger intake valves (up to 36 mm)
- use your MS3x to compensate for bad fuel (closed loop, table switching, knock circuit, etc.)
- use lightweight underdrive pulleys
- remove aircopump, powerstearing, and other powerrobbers.
- install a BILLET round tooth crank gear, to avoid bent valves.
- install larger injectors and run E85
- Install a 3" throttlebody from a 960
- 4-2-1 header + 2.5" volvo 240 exhaust system + less restrictive racecat
- sent your B234F head to Jens, Erland, Tommy or Andre and raise you power goal to 300 hp N/A.
__________________
1994 960 B204FT, full options, leather interior.
1991 745 B204GT (Swede Sixteen VT) M90 conversion.
1986 745 B230FT, 302mm V70 brakes, camber mod. (sold)
1983 244 turbo B21FT/AW71 - leather /airconditioning
1987 244 GLT - Polaris, Strutbar, viking motorsport lower chassis brace, k-cam, gaz strut/shocks, pu-bushings
mark244turbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2016, 01:46 PM   #12
John V, outside agitator
Board Member
 
John V, outside agitator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sleezattle, WA, USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark244turbo View Post
With a B230F shortblock, a B234F head, a less restictive air intake, a custom 4-2-1 header and a programmable ECU you should be able to make more than 200 hp.

A few other thing you can do are:
- Install a lightweight B21 flat flywheel + 240 turbo clutch, to reduce rotating mass
- Install ford 4.6 valve springs, so you can rev higher.
- Increase the rev-limit to 7000 rpm (to make more hp)
- Remove the casting marks inside the intake and exhaust ports.
- Port the inner radius at the intake side a ligthly to straighten the intake path.
- Do not enlarge the ports at the intake side, it will create more turbulence and reduce power.
- Install larger intake valves (up to 36 mm)
- use your MS3x to compensate for bad fuel (closed loop, table switching, knock circuit, etc.)
- use lightweight underdrive pulleys
- remove aircopump, powerstearing, and other powerrobbers.
- install a BILLET round tooth crank gear, to avoid bent valves.
- install larger injectors and run E85
- Install a 3" throttlebody from a 960
- 4-2-1 header + 2.5" volvo 240 exhaust system + less restrictive racecat
- sent your B234F head to Jens, Erland, Tommy or Andre and raise you power goal to 300 hp N/A.

Good start..
I am doing my famous "jewish Mama forhead slap" at all these guys saying "200 can't be done" With a few key items the question should be, how do you do less than 200?"

Oh Pea, aside from the above its probably better to discount heavily all the others responses..

Compression even on pump fuel can easily be in the low to mid 11s if you are going to use some cams which will give you any power, because the stock cams are lift, wheezy girly-man cams good for only sticking a car in top gear and revving for days.

So before wasting any more time---you tell us what the near, mid and long term plans are. What budget? What gearbox and axle?
__________________
John Vanlandingham/JVAB Imports
Sleezattle WA, USA

--> CALL (206) 431-9696<----

www.rallyrace.net/jvab

www.rallyanarchy.com

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

"When a man tells you that he got rich through hard work, ask him: 'Whose?'"
— Don Marquis
John V, outside agitator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2016, 06:13 PM   #13
SammyG
Board Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Default

idk about b230. and finding parts/ price .........but with the b18.... what ive been through price and time and effort etc....
if you want 'the good ****' I'd build a 350 v8 or some other "american always available off the shelf parts ready engine" and save like..... enough to buy a turbo and all the joints and beer you can consume.

as for independant O2 sensors for ease of tuning- sounds awesome. but at 250 bucks per wideband I'd be afraid of just melting them that close.... then again you're NA instead of turbocharged so egt might be slightly lower.
dont aim to solve mechanical problems electrically; total bandaid on a broken leg. There are plenty of forum posts online citing design of intake manifolds that distribute flow evenly among cylinders, be it from Multiple 'Y' splits, baffles in the bottom of the manifold..etc. ( I promise I would share if I hadn't accidentally wiped my bookmarks) I've got a few sketches in my '1800 journal' as I call it.... they give a good idea of the principles at play and how to work around/ use them. If you're stuck like **** just holler and Ill post a nice pixelized pic of some chicken scratch.

and 200 hp on a 2.3 liter.... I can see that on a ported block with 10:1 compression at 6500 rpm... hardest part is getting the engine to breath so the cam can do it's job all the way through the rpm range without falling off at by rev limit-- thats where the power is.. it's personally why I like turbos but its a freaking 16v; 200 hp should be a drive in the sun.
__________________
It can only be done by a qualified Volvo mechanic who has taken monastic vows, has not eaten red meat for at least 10 years, and has never dreamed of using anything other than official volvo parts. The job should take 6-10 hours and will cost you $2000 and you must sacrifice two bulls. As a substitute for bulls, you may donate $10,000 to greenpeace.

Last edited by SammyG; 07-30-2016 at 06:18 PM..
SammyG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2016, 07:08 PM   #14
740atl
educator monkey
 
740atl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: south jersey
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
Good start..
I am doing my famous "jewish Mama forhead slap" at all these guys saying "200 can't be done" With a few key items the question should be, how do you do less than 200?"

Oh Pea, aside from the above its probably better to discount heavily all the others responses..
John, why is he discounting my response?
740atl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2016, 07:38 PM   #15
mark244turbo
Board Member
 
mark244turbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Netherlands
Default

Well, maybe you gave some very bad advice.....
mark244turbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2016, 07:38 PM   #16
mark244turbo
Board Member
 
mark244turbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Netherlands
Default

Or john didn't read your post
mark244turbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2016, 08:26 PM   #17
740atl
educator monkey
 
740atl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: south jersey
Default

Maybe you didn't read it.
740atl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2016, 11:00 PM   #18
tom1283
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: 29732
Default

Not a lot done this weekend. Spent most of it tearing down gutters and replacing rotten fascia boards on the house. Started getting the head off. So far looks like its in decent shape. I'm going to need to buy a set of 1/2 drive sockets. 3/8 drive adapted up to 1/2 breaker bar didn't feel like it was going to cut it on the head bolts. Felt like I was going to shear the adapter before the bolts gave way.







Quote:
Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
Good start..
I am doing my famous "jewish Mama forhead slap" at all these guys saying "200 can't be done" With a few key items the question should be, how do you do less than 200?"

Oh Pea, aside from the above its probably better to discount heavily all the others responses..

Compression even on pump fuel can easily be in the low to mid 11s if you are going to use some cams which will give you any power, because the stock cams are lift, wheezy girly-man cams good for only sticking a car in top gear and revving for days.

So before wasting any more time---you tell us what the near, mid and long term plans are. What budget? What gearbox and axle?
Near term plan is to tear down b234f head and see what I've got. Tear down 93 B230 squirter block and see if it's usable. Figure out how I want to build this up.

Mid term is to get parts ordered. Take block and head to machine shop. Fully dress the motor, make a wiring harness for MS3, get a T5 bolted to it. Once I'm most of the way there swap it all into the car.

Long term this will be a sporty daily driver. Not building it for autocross or racing. Just something with decent reliable power that I don't have to worry about putting tons of miles on.

I'm hoping to stay under $2000 for the built short block. Could spend more if needed but I'll have to have good reasons for it. It'll be mated up to a T5 WC. I'm looking at the 3.35,1.99,1.33,1.00,0.68 box at the moment. I have a 4.1 ring and pinion waiting for most likely a truetrac diff. I have not decided on final tire size yet.

I've got an engineering background so I'm going to try to put that to use. Runner and exhaust lengths will be done with some helmholtz equations. With some luck that might get me 75% of the way without having to do it the right way on an engine dyno and tons of testing (money). I'll try to model whatever else I can, after all this is an excuse for me to learn something I don't have much experience with. With that said, care to educate me on cams. What are the stock profiles lacking and what should I be aiming for. And more importantly will custom cams blow through my budget?

So far mark244turbo's list is looking like a good start.
tom1283 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2016, 02:59 AM   #19
Arn02
Board Member
 
Arn02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Amsterdam, NL
Default

So apart from hp, what are the engine characteristics you'd like your car to have? I'm sure 250-300 can be done with some increased c/r and cams, but I'm not sure you'd like the powerdelivery on a street car.
__________________
Ambitious but rubbish.

The 245 GT

The Euromurican
Arn02 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2016, 10:28 PM   #20
tom1283
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: 29732
Default

A little more progress this week. Head off and looks like no damage.



I managed to score a -242 T5 transmission for real cheap. It's the 94-95 cobra transmission which has some of the T5z upgrades. It has the 7.85" input shaft which would normally be a problem. I got it so cheap because the input shaft pocket tapered roller bearing was destroyed. The pocket in the input has marring and damage. Luckily main shaft looks good. So either way I have to get a new input shaft. Swapping it out for a 7.18" shaft out of a -218 T5. So far gears look to be in good shape. Even synchros look good. Someone must have rebuilt it not realizing the tapered roller bearings require almost no shaft play when shimming. Must have shimmed it loose and tore up the bearing.

To further the discussion about cams:
As John said I could still run higher compression ratios with pump gas if I have a lot of overlap on the cams. That would limit cylinder pressures/bring dynamic compression ratio down. Only down side is it typically makes the motor sluggish at lower rpms. As I want a decent daily driver I don't know if that's a good compromise. As an alternative is there anything that can be done with the combustion chamber shape and quench area to reduce knock? With the 16v I don't think the quench options are as good as with the 8v. Less room to play with. Anyone have any experience to share?
tom1283 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2017, 12:39 AM   #21
Kenunot
Board Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Default

necro bump

Did you ever build this thing? Learn anything worth sharing? This is exactly what I want to do.
__________________
Sale Thread Feedback Thread
Kenunot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2018, 10:56 PM   #22
white855T
Board Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Dallas,TX
Default

Still working on this project?
__________________
Buyer/Seller Feedback

http://turbobricks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=301654
white855T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2018, 11:36 PM   #23
LeedomtoFreedom
Board Member
 
LeedomtoFreedom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Chicago
Default

I would definitely be interested in some update too. I'm about to do something similar
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Towerymt
Start engine and hold at fast idle to heat it to operating temperature.

Remove oil filler cap.

Pour in 2 pints of fine sand.

Wait until engine shuts itself off automatically.

Now you've got a ported engine. Time to go racing!
81 264 - Driveway ornament
90 240 - Dailydriving 94 b230ft, hx35, green giants, massive IC, 3" exhaust all the way, T5 trans, many other goodies
LeedomtoFreedom is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:51 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.