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Old 08-04-2015, 11:23 AM   #1
BIGsBY
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Default Microsquirt v3/extra/ no start issue.Log files provided.B280 goodness

Alrighty i've been messing with my settings for a little bit and figured out the logger settings so i have logged everything i can find and hopefully someone here will point me in the right direction as i want this thing running lol.It does pop and misfire out of the intake and exhaust on occasions when i crank it over.So it does have fuel and spark but the real question is if its going on at the right times.I also looked at the vr sensor log/crank signal log and it seems like it spikes all over the place and isn't a steady patern and being that everything starts at the VR sensor i think this might be the main problem.

Now i have heard of people adding a resistor to fix the signal on the VR sensor which i am going to do and see if that fixes the issue.I think since the signal is all over the place its not gonna run at all anyway.But heck least i have spark and fuel and it does misfire.So i am on the right front.I still have no real idea on the injection settings as i left them alone to the unlimited settting but i think i have a handle on the spark settings as the 203 bosch module isn't getting extremely hot its getting warm though.

Oh i'd like to add that this motor came with a 60-6 flexplate/wheel set up so my settings for the trigger are 60-4.

Log files/tune

http://www.megafileupload.com/96gN/log_files.zip

Packed everything into a Zip file so its all there.
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Old 08-04-2015, 05:55 PM   #2
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I'm not quite sure you understand how a missing tooth flywheel works. Do you have a picture of this flex plate? What is it from?
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Old 08-04-2015, 06:06 PM   #3
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I found the specs for the b280 flex plate off here.Its different from the normal b230 plate.And i recall it being a 60-6 flex plate/flywheel.So minus 2 teeth it should be 60-4 in the trigger settings if im correct.
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Old 08-04-2015, 08:01 PM   #4
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Why are you minus 2 teeth?

If it's a 60-6 it needs to be set up as such, I'm pretty dang sure.
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Old 08-04-2015, 08:11 PM   #5
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I thought for the longest it was always minus 2 teeth on the trigger.But perhaps what info i have is wrong lol.Like i said i've never been down this road before but i got spark and fuel and i just need to figure out if the VR sensor is reading correctly.The logs show the signal is all over the place during cranking but its a steady signal just erratic.

I know the motor uses a 60-6 flex plate so perhaps i need to go back to that and see if that helps matters.But i think damn near everyone has had to add a resistor on the +vr and -vr signal pins on the back of the board to get the signal to read clean.
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Old 08-04-2015, 10:24 PM   #6
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See page 26 of: http://www.ohio.edu/people/ridgely/V...20Ignition.pdf

Quote:
The EZ-115K ignition system for B280 engines is designed for a flywheel with a type 60/3 toothed profile. The profile is provided with 60 drilled holes and 3 'long' teeth, each of which is twice the length of a 'short ' tooth. In other words, the profile is provided with 54 (60-3x2) short leeth and 3 long teeth as the crankshaft position reference points. The angular pitch between two adjacent short teeth (ZO) is 6.00 (360°/60). The three long teeth are located 120" apart (angle c). The control unit identifies TOC as the point 000 after the passage of a reference tooth. The control unit applies a factor of 16 to improve the resolution of the pick-up signal . In other words, the unit can adjust the timing in steps of 0.375°.
This shows a flywheel with: 18teeth-2gap-18teeth-2gap-18teeth-2gap, or 60-2-2-2 ?

Does MS support this pattern or is a EZ-115K module needed?

Edit: I just thought about this a little more, and doesn't this style of flywheel mean that you must use a distributor for spark distribution? Without a unique once-per-rev pattern, you can't do wasted spark, right?

Last edited by bobxyz; 08-04-2015 at 10:39 PM..
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Old 08-04-2015, 10:53 PM   #7
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Hmm i could never find any solid info on the flex plate itself just what was posted here on TB ages ago about ms'ing a b280 and it was posted as a 60-6.If it doesn't seem like its feasible with the ignition set up i have which is a ford edis v6 coil pack running wasted spark then perhaps i might have to go another route to get this system to work properly?

I guess this opens a whole new can of worms.Interesting find none the less.I know Johnlane is running a trigger set up on the crankshaft with a traditional set up.I might just have to go that route then.

I would think MS would support any number of digits long as its a 60 to whatever but no way would it support a 60-2-2-2- im pretty sure i just have my settings wrong on that tab since i been trying to get it running on the 60-4 and all it does is backfire and so on.Perhaps ill try the 60-6 settings and see what happens.
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Old 08-04-2015, 10:58 PM   #8
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You really need to look at your own flywheel/flexplate and figure out exactly what you have. Reading third hand information and blindly stumbling through the trigger settings page is a ticket to nowhere.
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Old 08-04-2015, 11:02 PM   #9
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I do have a spare parts motor that i pulled out of a 760 that should tell me exactly what i need.But i hate to sound like an idiot as i have no idea how to count the teeth/gaps or what these 'teeth' are.

This is all new to me.
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Old 08-04-2015, 11:28 PM   #10
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Hmm it seems like Volvo was using the standard 60-2 on the b230 since the late 80's so perhaps i have the same deal on the b280.All a bunch of different variables but i think the 60-2 would be the most likely as why would Volvo want to go through the hassle of making a specific flywheel to work with the v6?

But who knows,looks the most promising i think.
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Old 08-04-2015, 11:53 PM   #11
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Based on your posted composite tooth log, it sure looks like your flywheel is: 18teeth-2gap-18teeth-2gap-18teeth-2gap, or 60-2-2-2. (It also looks like there are occasional extra teeth, meaning that the VR triggering isn't clean.)

I'm pretty sure that this won't work as-is without a distributor, and even then, it would need some custom megasquirt software since 6-cyl 60-2-2-2 is not a supported configuration. (With a distributor and standard code, there's a very small chance that you could trick MS into working if your configure for a 2-cylinder engine, with a 20-2 wheel. This is a long shot.)
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Old 08-05-2015, 10:16 AM   #12
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Hmm i wonder if even the 60-2-2-2 is even a realistic number for a count of the teeth?I am willing to bet that the flex plate is a standard 60-2 since the car is lh2.2 to start off with and Volvo was switching out to the 60-2 in the late 80's.I'll count the teeth on the 760 b280 i got just to be sure.Seems like you start counting teeth at the 2 empty spots on the back of the flex plate then up to 12 o-clock.

If what you are saying is correct though then im pretty well screwed which i hope isn't the case.
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Old 08-05-2015, 11:25 AM   #13
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FWIW,

I do recall the b280 using a very unique ezk ignition system which seems very different from all the rest.So perhaps the flex plate is just as unique?Either way it shouldn't be that special id think based on old 80s tech it can't be all that crazy to figure out.When i get home ill check the tooth count on the parts motor.My guess its gonna come out as a 60-6 or the traditional 60-2.

Then it should be just a matter of running a 1k-10k resistor on the vr pins and to get a clean signal.i forget the range of the k's on the resistor but i know its in that range area.Either way i need to clean the signal up and that should give us a better idea of what we are working with.

I am also curious as to what the 3.0L PRV motors used since they used a modern coil pack set up on the later versions of this engine i just wonder what all was involved.

Might be a long shot but i wonder if a DSM CAS unit could be adapted to work in conjunction with the wasted spark set up?Since the original distributor was located in the head i do have a slot that could be used for the CAS unit but it would have to be adapted to the shaft off the distributor which could be done.

Looks like perhaps a 3000gt cas might just work.Looks very feasible if need be.Hmm perhaps it might be a route to check out.Guess i need to research them further but i know they are used on wasted spark set ups.
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Old 08-05-2015, 08:24 PM   #14
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Hmm i gave the 60-2 settings a try then turned the noise filter on.And gave it a crank and logged the trigger and this is the result.Looks much better then the b.s 60-4 settings.Hell ms won't even allow the standard 60-6 that was supposedly on this motor.But i think with all the b.s aside it in fact uses a 60-2 flexplate like any other Volvo.Expect it uses a unique ezk and ignition set up but the basics for triggering it still remains the same for LH2.2

Included is the log file on the trigger and a pic of the signal.

http://www.filedropper.com/triggerlog60-2noisefilteron

Granted the signal still needs to be cleaned up but it looks much better then what i started off with.I think this motor uses just the standard 60-2 flexplate and nothing special besides the ezk.



Now this has my curiosity growing on the resistor front.What is the most common to use to clean the signal up even more?I've heard of as little as 1k to as high as 10k,i would like to think 5k would be a good starting point.
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Old 08-05-2015, 08:38 PM   #15
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You need to count all the teeth on the flywheel, plus the missing teeth from the flat spots. 60-2 means a total of 58 teeth, plus 2 missing teeth from a long flat spot. 60-2-2-2 means 54 teeth + three 2 missing tooth flat spots.

Your above pic shows some rpm variation from cranking (which is normal), an extra narrow pulse a couple samples to the right of the cursor (VR noise), and a couple of what looks like 2 missing tooth long flat spots. Sorry, this isn't encouraging.

Edit: ignore my now-removed comment on using MS + EZ115K together. I did a quick search and couldn't find anything that I'd trust.

You can try a 5K resistor across VR+ / VR- wires and then see if the extra (very short) spikes in the Composite log go away.

I looked through the TP31397 manual a little more and the B280 motors had a weird factory setup. They had a 60-2-2-2 wheel, with 2 missing teeth every 120degrees. In addition, to determine cylinder #1 TDC, they had a special sensor wrapped around the #1 sparkplug wire (inductive spark pickup), plus 2 knock sensors. Sorry, I didn't realize how unique these motors were when I saw your early MS posts.

Last edited by bobxyz; 08-05-2015 at 11:35 PM..
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Old 08-06-2015, 04:44 AM   #16
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It is in fact missing two holes every 120 degrees. I just machined a flywheel to suit the stock motor. Being two 3 cylinders together does that... But so is a Buick 3.8 v6
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Old 08-06-2015, 10:02 AM   #17
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You have to know what you have before you can move forward.
Have someone rotate the motor slowly so you can count teeth and plot the wheel pattern.

If it is a 60 (-2x120°) you can create the missing 4 teeth to form a stadard 60-2 pattern.
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Old 08-06-2015, 10:40 AM   #18
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I think the end result is gonna be stepping away from dealing with the vr sensor set up and go in favor of a dsm 3000gt cas.It seems like its a better investment then to try and coax life out of the stock trigger set up.But even going the cas route ill have to get pretty damn creative in making it work but im pretty sure i can come up with something that shouldn't be too damn crazy.

I appreciate everyone trying to help i really do.It just seems like its not worth trying to dick around with and will always be a pain to get working and keep it working.Rather take the 'easy' way out and just go with the cas unit.The other idea is that the old distributor is so massive you might be able to hide a trigger wheel inside it perhaps.

I know Johnlane is triggering his ecu off a cam sensor set up of some sort.So ill see what he has to say about all this.
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Old 08-06-2015, 11:59 AM   #19
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There is no "easy way out" when you have no idea what you're doing.

My suggestion is put down the pipe, pick up the manual, and learn how your controller works. Once you understand what's going on you'll be able to make it work without having to blindly throw parts at it thinking something else may work.
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Old 08-06-2015, 12:09 PM   #20
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it is odd fire you would be best off using the old b28 distributor or stock ignition system. The megasquirt odd fire setting is for buick im not sure it will work the same with the PRV.

that Regina pattern flywheel wont work with megasquirt with out getting one of the developers to rewright the code to have that pattern available as an option.
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Old 08-06-2015, 03:27 PM   #21
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Well im pretty confident the dsm cas will work alot easier then having to take the flexplate off and drill some additional holes into it then having to get the vr sensor to read cleanly.And hell if i was going to have to go through all this hell just to have to pull the flexplate out id just pull the whole motor out and swap a b230 in the thing and be done with it.Least the b230 has been written about left and right and tons of 'how to' articles out the wood work.

I see no reason why the cas wouldn't work its pretty well proven.And i rather gamble $60-70 on that then to gamble and waste my time pulling the flex plate then driving it 100 miles to the nearest machine shop then slapping it all back together.
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Old 08-06-2015, 06:41 PM   #22
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You haven't begun to have problems if you are considering a CAS. There are more guys having trouble with a CAS than a VR and you want to add odd fire!

Out of the frying pan and into the fire....

Next is an MS part out and car crushing!

Scrap prices are down, I'll give you $5 for it if it has at least a half a tank of gas, and I'll have it running in less than two days!
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Old 08-06-2015, 07:15 PM   #23
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Well hell its not a odd fire b27-28 the b280 is a even fire motor.Just putting that out there

I just really don't know what the hell to even do at this point.All the hard work is done mostly now its just a matter of getting the damn thing running.Not like anyone else has been down this road its all a bunch of theory's at this point still.

If i have to pull the motor to swap out flexplates ill just ditch the b280.Its not worth that much aggravation to me to get the vr sensor working just to have to go through all that.However moving over in favor of the CAS would be worth the trouble imo.And much easier to deal with then going through the whole hassle of swapping the plates out or having the holes drilled in it.

Whats the 'simple' solution to this 60-2-2-2 situation if i may ask?
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Old 08-06-2015, 08:45 PM   #24
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Dirty Rick,if you don't even know the B280 is even fire how are you going to get it to run in 2 days?
He's doing something that's never been done before and this is his first MS install to boot,give a guy some slack.
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Old 08-06-2015, 09:50 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGsBY View Post
Not like anyone else has been down this road its all a bunch of theory's at this point still.
It really isn't. Thousands of people have running cars with all different types of engines on MS. The ECU doesn't give a **** what engine it's controlling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGsBY View Post
Whats the 'simple' solution to this 60-2-2-2 situation if i may ask?
Read the ****ing manual and you will find out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbolton1990 View Post
Dirty Rick,if you don't even know the B280 is even fire how are you going to get it to run in 2 days?
Never mind that guy. Touts himself as some NASA rocket expert, has nothing useful to contribute to the forums.
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