home register FAQ memberlist calendar

Go Back   Turbobricks Forums > Mechanical > performance & modifications

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-13-2019, 03:42 AM   #126
CaseyHooligan
Board Member
 
CaseyHooligan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Seattle
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tfrasca View Post
Isn't the failure mode of the Volvo tube that it blows out that big, forgiving o-ring? I know the shoulder that supports the o-ring on the Volvo tube is too small and too round, so maybe a good compromise would be to use the OEM (or similar) o-ring, but give it a better shoulder?
A bigger shoulder on the tube would do the trick, as long as you use OEM O-rings(418360OE?)
After years of reading about the O-ring issue, I've formulated a theory about the various O-ring materials:
Black O-rings = Junk (EPDM rubber or silicone?) Poor temperature resistance
Orange O-rings = OEM quality (Buna-N rubber?) ~212F constant duty
My O-rings = Viton fluoroelastomer 400F constant, up to 600F intermittent

Maybe an even better stock style O-ring would be:
McMaster-Carr #1170N54

Used with a steel .5mm back-up washer between the tube bump and the o-ring.
Hmm, Maybe I should make a few sets of this required back-up washer and order the o-rings and try it out...

Of course the stock transfer tube would still interfere with ARP main studs...
__________________
Blue 79' 242 GL
Engine Rebuild in process!

Last edited by CaseyHooligan; 08-13-2019 at 03:52 AM..
CaseyHooligan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2019, 01:01 PM   #127
blkaplan
50 shades of beige
 
blkaplan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Rockville, MD
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaseyHooligan View Post
You might not have noticed, I've slotted the brace mounting holes and left generous clearance around the bolts to allow some movement during mounting.

I'll be sending out a recommended installation procedure with these prototypes to help understand the intended fitting. The oil pump bolts attaching the brace are to be tightened after installation of the oil tube/oil pump are in the block.

I understand there is a tendency to formulate an opinion around Tate's post, but at least reserve judgement until you try it for yourself.

And God help a rookie who is building his own engine and "slapping" parts on!
Also please don't take any of this as being too critical. I like what you are doing and am trying to help with some suggestions. Sometimes tone and intent can be difficult to convey over interw3bs posting.

That being said

Most of my comments aren't necessarily centered around tates experience, just thoughts i have had looking at what you are doing and potential for problems.

I did notice the slots but the plane is still locked. its possible it can work out fine but its also possible to have issues. If the plate isn't parallel to the assembly... tightening it down at the end can still shift it out of alignment, if it was in alignment to begin with. having a plate like this isn't necessarily a problem as long you are compensating for enough misalignment...

I think your best bet would be to put together a test block. where you can spin the oil pump with a drill or the int, shaft... and see how well it seals and how far it can be out of alignment before you start getting leakage. People spend alot of money putting together engines... if they upgrade to something like this, i think it would be great piece of mind to know the what should be acceptable and what might generate in an issue.
__________________
www.BEIGEPOWER.com
Kaplhenke Racing Facebook
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkKratoz View Post
The only safe bet is Ben.©
blkaplan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2019, 01:04 PM   #128
blkaplan
50 shades of beige
 
blkaplan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Rockville, MD
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tfrasca View Post
Isn't the failure mode of the Volvo tube that it blows out that big, forgiving o-ring? I know the shoulder that supports the o-ring on the Volvo tube is too small and too round, so maybe a good compromise would be to use the OEM (or similar) o-ring, but give it a better shoulder?
The volvo setup is reliable, To my knowledge it was never a problem when these cars were new and being driven by the masses. You can have problems with inferior parts being replace but the stock setup, for the most part.... works just fine. Could it be more bullet proof? Sure.

Will it clear ARP studs? no

Last edited by blkaplan; 08-13-2019 at 02:39 PM..
blkaplan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2019, 02:05 PM   #129
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Ben Lomond, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaseyHooligan View Post
A bigger shoulder on the tube would do the trick, as long as you use OEM O-rings(418360OE?)
After years of reading about the O-ring issue, I've formulated a theory about the various O-ring materials:
Black O-rings = Junk (EPDM rubber or silicone?) Poor temperature resistance
Orange O-rings = OEM quality (Buna-N rubber?) ~212F constant duty
My O-rings = Viton fluoroelastomer 400F constant, up to 600F intermittent

Maybe an even better stock style O-ring would be:
McMaster-Carr #1170N54

Used with a steel .5mm back-up washer between the tube bump and the o-ring.
Hmm, Maybe I should make a few sets of this required back-up washer and order the o-rings and try it out...

Of course the stock transfer tube would still interfere with ARP main studs...
Yeah, I was envisioning your design, but with the ends changed to accept OEM o-rings. Same bend to clear the ARP stud, and definitely keep the bracket. But instead of the two o-rings, you use the stock one and add a nice flat shoulder for it.
Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2019, 01:46 AM   #130
t8fanning
8v are still cool, right?
 
t8fanning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cedar Hills, UT
Default

I am pretty confident that both ends are in as far as they can go. It took some time and force to get everything aligned to fit.

I couldn't get the fitting any further into the oil pump, and even if I did, it would misalign from the oil port in the block. I couldn't get the fitting further into the block because the height was fixed by the brace.

I really think it's caused by block oil port angle differences. Because the tube location is fixed, I could see the angle differences causing sealing problems between the block and tube. I bet it doesn't leak at the pump because of the brace.

I've driven the car a bit more. While I haven't datalogged it, I do notice during cold startup pressure builds to ~15 psi, drops, and then jumps up to ~45 psi.
__________________
1982 242 Turbo.
t8fanning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2019, 02:14 PM   #131
CaseyHooligan
Board Member
 
CaseyHooligan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Seattle
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by t8fanning View Post
I am pretty confident that both ends are in as far as they can go. It took some time and force to get everything aligned to fit.

I couldn't get the fitting any further into the oil pump, and even if I did, it would misalign from the oil port in the block. I couldn't get the fitting further into the block because the height was fixed by the brace.

I really think it's caused by block oil port angle differences. Because the tube location is fixed, I could see the angle differences causing sealing problems between the block and tube. I bet it doesn't leak at the pump because of the brace.

I've driven the car a bit more. While I haven't datalogged it, I do notice during cold startup pressure builds to ~15 psi, drops, and then jumps up to ~45 psi.
Alright,
Well I just sent out 7 more so hopefully I can get more feedback from other people.
I took a lot of care to fixture and align these fittings to my block and oil pump(94'B230FT/New Volvo pump). If there are issues with block/pump geometry variations, I will hear about it I'm sure.
CaseyHooligan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2019, 06:55 AM   #132
Swedbrick
Board Member
 
Swedbrick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Netherlands
Default Finally installed, a little review

Since I found some time in between lectures and the tube had arrived I decided to install it today. I found the instructions very clear, and the item was packaged really nicely and looked great!

I previously installed my oil pump with the ipd reinforcement ring as well, so the install was a little harder, but with a careful wiggle it seated right in the bores. I chose to keep the ring on the end of the drive gear, since this appeared to be the easiest, and for me it worked well. The tube seated nicely and the bolts on the pump could be tightened after rotating the crank a bit, the tube fitted as shown below:





I did notice a difference between the tightness of the refreshed stock o-rings and the viton seal on the ZG tube. The stock one sat much tighter which would explain the pressure drop at lower flowrates as discussed above. I also prelubed the seals, which I would recommend adding to the manual ;)



It will probably take a while for me to get the engine running, but by that time I'll get to a follow up review
__________________
Volvo 745 - IPD springs, Sways, K-cam, LH2.4, M90 swap, 3.94 diff, track/daily
Swedbrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2019, 02:25 PM   #133
CaseyHooligan
Board Member
 
CaseyHooligan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Seattle
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swedbrick View Post
Since I found some time in between lectures and the tube had arrived I decided to install it today. I found the instructions very clear, and the item was packaged really nicely and looked great!

I previously installed my oil pump with the ipd reinforcement ring as well, so the install was a little harder, but with a careful wiggle it seated right in the bores. I chose to keep the ring on the end of the drive gear, since this appeared to be the easiest, and for me it worked well. The tube seated nicely and the bolts on the pump could be tightened after rotating the crank a bit, the tube fitted as shown below:

I did notice a difference between the tightness of the refreshed stock o-rings and the viton seal on the ZG tube. The stock one sat much tighter which would explain the pressure drop at lower flowrates as discussed above. I also prelubed the seals, which I would recommend adding to the manual ;)

It will probably take a while for me to get the engine running, but by that time I'll get to a follow up review
Thanks for that feedback Swedbrick

Does anyone else have an opinion or feedback on this V1 design?
I'd really like to hear it, positive or negative.
CaseyHooligan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2019, 03:07 PM   #134
CaseyHooligan
Board Member
 
CaseyHooligan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Seattle
Default

Over the past few months I've been working on another version of the Oil Tube.
This version would be either cast or AM, in this case I made one in Binder jet Stainless/Bronze from EXOne.



After printing about 3 versions, I've finally tweaked the CAD and shrink factor to achieve a near perfect fit to my block and pump(Volvo pump, 94' B230FT block).

It did take a bit of thought to figure out an easy way to fixture for machining of the o-ring grooves. I wound up using a fatter o-ring than the previous design, now it's a 2mm x 14 as opposed to a 1.5mm x 14mm.
The o-ring fit is much tighter now as well.

CaseyHooligan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2019, 03:11 PM   #135
CaseyHooligan
Board Member
 
CaseyHooligan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Seattle
Default

Here are a few more pictures.





CaseyHooligan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2019, 03:23 PM   #136
CaseyHooligan
Board Member
 
CaseyHooligan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Seattle
Default

I've been thinking about the oil tube improvements from the other end also.
How could I improve the stock oil tube seal reliability. This might be very similar to what others here have done.



I've machined a very close fitting steel back-up ring that provides better o-ring support and used a better quality square-section o-ring(Viton).

The New Viton o-ring is a very tight fit into the block and pump, and a bit thinner is width which is to compensate for the added width of the steel back-up ring.



It seems the real problem is o-ring longevity, from what I can gather, The OEM o-rings tend to harden and crack over time, obviously leaking. My theory is that a longer lived material like Viton would mitigate this issue.
CaseyHooligan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2019, 03:25 PM   #137
CaseyHooligan
Board Member
 
CaseyHooligan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Seattle
Default

One more update.
I have been working on a stock style replacement oil tube that uses the improved Viton o-ring and steel back-up ring as well as having a bend profile that clears the ARP main studs.

I should have something to show in the next few weeks.
CaseyHooligan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2019, 04:33 PM   #138
Tfrasca
Board Member
 
Tfrasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Ben Lomond, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaseyHooligan View Post
One more update.
I have been working on a stock style replacement oil tube that uses the improved Viton o-ring and steel back-up ring as well as having a bend profile that clears the ARP main studs.

I should have something to show in the next few weeks.
Great updates. I'm interested in a stock style tube that would clear ARP studs. I'll be building a new engine over the winter, so I could actually use it.
Tfrasca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2019, 10:47 PM   #139
jjona5
Board Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Houston
Default

Can I get one?
jjona5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:18 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.