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Old 07-26-2019, 01:26 AM   #101
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I can see now. Very nice.
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Old 07-26-2019, 02:06 AM   #102
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I know it seems like I may never finish these oil tubes... But I've been distracted by my day job and a week long family vacation(excuses, excuses, excuses, blah, blah..)

However, I have made some progress.
I have all the fitting brazed onto the finished tubes and just need to add the brace, black oxide and then I can ship! *Pictures coming soon*

On my vacation, I managed to start the redesign of these oil tubes for a more production friendly configuration. I figured the cost of producing the fabricated assemblies in batches of 10pcs would wind up costing over $200 per part to make. With all the cutting, machining, bending, welding and finishing, it just takes a lot of time to make quality parts!

I'll likely investment cast the new design as one part in stainless steel, drastically cutting down on the time and labor needed. Since I wont be constrained by things like bend die diameter and standard tube sizes, I took the opportunity to tweak things a bit.

Here is the basic part without the brace:


And a cutaway:


I've modified the tube geometry to provide a bit better main stud clearance and increased the size of the o-rings so they provide a little more compliance. The inner diameter of the tube is slightly smaller but still larger than the stock tube.
This version may take a couple months or more to prototype, test and produce but I'll post updates of it's progress.
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Old 07-26-2019, 03:21 PM   #103
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Really nice. I just built my engine not long ago, but I've been thinking about getting another block to build as a long term project. If/when I do that, I'll buy this from you.
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Old 08-07-2019, 05:46 PM   #104
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Here are the Oil Tubes all welded and ready for cleanup and Black Oxide



Shouldn't be long now.
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Old 08-07-2019, 05:55 PM   #105
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I MUST have one
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Old 08-07-2019, 08:22 PM   #106
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I MUST have one
Chilm, I should have the first of the next batch in a about 2 weeks.
I have your email so I'll let you know.
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Old 08-08-2019, 12:07 PM   #107
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Looks great! Did you find a supplier to help with the bending?
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Old 08-08-2019, 05:29 PM   #108
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Chilm, I should have the first of the next batch in a about 2 weeks.
I have your email so I'll let you know.
Great, thanks man...
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Old 08-08-2019, 08:12 PM   #109
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Looks great! Did you find a supplier to help with the bending?
No, I sent a quote out months ago but it was no-quoted..
I'm sure 10-20pc order is the issue.
I have a plan though!
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Old 08-09-2019, 12:28 AM   #110
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Are these still prototypes for testing or are they the final product?
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Old 08-09-2019, 04:10 AM   #111
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Are these still prototypes for testing or are they the final product?
These are essentially hand-made prototypes.
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Old 08-09-2019, 01:45 PM   #112
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Do you need to coat them just so they won't rust before installation?
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Old 08-09-2019, 01:57 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by CaseyHooligan View Post
Chilm, I should have the first of the next batch in a about 2 weeks.
I have your email so I'll let you know.
I really need to stop spending money, and it probably wouldn't even go into the car until winter overhaul season, but don't want to miss out. Still interested if you want to shoot me an email when the time comes (last name's kornely)
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Old 08-09-2019, 09:44 PM   #114
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Casey sent me the original tube he made for testing. I finally installed it and took some data.

The installation was easy enough, no appreciable difference from stock. However, it does take a bit of patience and precision to align the oil pump drive and the transfer tube outlet, and maybe a little more force than stock to remove due to tolerance stackup between the part and my specific engine casting. Take your time during installation to ensure a good sealing fit. It also should be noted that the flanges on either end of my tube do not butt up to the block or the oil pump. There is a small gap on either end, but it doesn't seem to affect sealing. Below are two pictures of the installation. One shows clearance between the ARP main stud and the transfer tube. The other shows the gap between flange and either end surface.





All data was taken at approximately the same ambient and oil temperatures. Data shows endine oil pressure produced by a year or two old Melling m181 pump with the IPD high pressure spring pumping Rotella T6 5w-40 oil in a B230FT with oil squirters in ~95 F ambient temp. I took data during a cold start, a hot start, and a full pull from ~1000 to 7200 rpm. Plots showing oil pressure obtained at various engine RPM during these events follow:







In general, there seems to be a small (~1-4 psi) pressure drop when switching to the Zelig transfer tube from stock. This is most noticeable during hot start and the pull. I don't think this will cause any problem for my engine setup, but if you have a 16v with oil squirters, it might be something to think about.

In both starting events, oil pressure takes longer to build with the Zelig transfer tube. This is seen with the lower oil pressure values at higher RPMs, signifying a longer ramp during starting to build pressure. I'm not quite sure how to explain this. I guess it could be oil initially escaping because the flanges don't butt up to their respective surfaces, but I don't know if I actually believe that. More likely, the tube and engine angles are slightly different, but I also don't know if that could be the cause. It may also be some function of my oil pressure sensor not accurately recording during cranking, but that's kind of hard to believe as well. In any case, it seems that full oil pressure is delayed a few hundred RPM during starting events with the Zelig transfer tube. I'm not sure this is a problem, but it happened with my engine.

I will leave the Zelig transfer tube in my engine. At high RPMs where the oil pressure really matters, there is no significant difference between the stock and the Zelig tube pressures. The main benefit of this tube is to allow for a full set of ARP main studs instead of having to use one bolt. I'll keep my eye on oil pressure for the next little while and see if anything changes. I don't think it will, but if it does, I'll update.
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Old 08-11-2019, 02:47 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by t8fanning View Post
Casey sent me the original tube he made for testing. I finally installed it and took some data.

The installation was easy enough, no appreciable difference from stock. However, it does take a bit of patience and precision to align the oil pump drive and the transfer tube outlet, and maybe a little more force than stock to remove due to tolerance stackup between the part and my specific engine casting. Take your time during installation to ensure a good sealing fit. It also should be noted that the flanges on either end of my tube do not butt up to the block or the oil pump. There is a small gap on either end, but it doesn't seem to affect sealing. Below are two pictures of the installation. One shows clearance between the ARP main stud and the transfer tube. The other shows the gap between flange and either end surface.

All data was taken at approximately the same ambient and oil temperatures. Data shows endine oil pressure produced by a year or two old Melling m181 pump with the IPD high pressure spring pumping Rotella T6 5w-40 oil in a B230FT with oil squirters in ~95 F ambient temp. I took data during a cold start, a hot start, and a full pull from ~1000 to 7200 rpm. Plots showing oil pressure obtained at various engine RPM during these events follow:







In general, there seems to be a small (~1-4 psi) pressure drop when switching to the Zelig transfer tube from stock. This is most noticeable during hot start and the pull. I don't think this will cause any problem for my engine setup, but if you have a 16v with oil squirters, it might be something to think about.

In both starting events, oil pressure takes longer to build with the Zelig transfer tube. This is seen with the lower oil pressure values at higher RPMs, signifying a longer ramp during starting to build pressure. I'm not quite sure how to explain this. I guess it could be oil initially escaping because the flanges don't butt up to their respective surfaces, but I don't know if I actually believe that. More likely, the tube and engine angles are slightly different, but I also don't know if that could be the cause. It may also be some function of my oil pressure sensor not accurately recording during cranking, but that's kind of hard to believe as well. In any case, it seems that full oil pressure is delayed a few hundred RPM during starting events with the Zelig transfer tube. I'm not sure this is a problem, but it happened with my engine.

I will leave the Zelig transfer tube in my engine. At high RPMs where the oil pressure really matters, there is no significant difference between the stock and the Zelig tube pressures. The main benefit of this tube is to allow for a full set of ARP main studs instead of having to use one bolt. I'll keep my eye on oil pressure for the next little while and see if anything changes. I don't think it will, but if it does, I'll update.
Thanks for taking the time to gather and share this data Tate.
I am left a bit perplexed as to why the trend tends to show a drop in pressure hot but cold start is higher?
Perhaps there is a slight pressure loss past the o-rings? But if that were true, why not a pressure loss during the cold start when pressures are clearly higher? maybe as temperature increases and viscosity drops, there is some pressure loss past the o-rings?
I kinda wish oil temperature was accurately measured as it can be a big factor in viscosity and resultant pressure.
If there is a leak/pressure loss past the o-rings, there are a few reasons why that could happen. Factors like the bore size and surface quality would be among them.
The smaller,harder o-rings used in this design do make it more sensitive to bore size and finish, However most of the time in my experience, o-ring seal failure mode is dramatic. They either seal well or not at all. This is not a dramatic failure and thus is tough to nail down.
If there isn't a leak past the o-rings, then what other factors would cause this?

Also, the oil pressure at higher RPM really starts to get inconsistent, I bet that's a result of the bypass returning a lot of oil to the intake side of the pump and disrupting flow leading to cavitation. One of the oil pump mods I'm wanting to try is redirecting the bypass flow to dump straight to the pan.

Also, the flange on the tube isn't meant to provide a seal or necessarily contact the block or oil pump outlet, it's only purpose is to add material to facilitate welding of the fitting to the tube. What's more important is that the fitting is fully inserted into the oil pump and block sockets. As long as the o-rings have a round, relatively smooth bore to contact, then all should be good.

The fitting insertion depth on your block is certainly not as deep as seen on my engine(94' B230FT) I wonder if there is some core shift or some kind of casting variation that would account for that difference? And on that note, Are you also seeing an angular displacement of the oil tube? Are the oil ports at a slightly different angle/distance apart than on my block?

I have so many questions!

But, it does seem to be "working". Aside from the ~%10 reduction in pressure at operating temp, This first prototype bolted in and clears the ARP bolt.
Yay!?

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Old 08-12-2019, 01:16 AM   #116
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I'm just about ready to ship these out, Just need to bag and box them.
I'll be sending out emails to those on my list here in a day or two.
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Old 08-12-2019, 04:32 PM   #117
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I actually did log oil temp in the sump. Looks like during cold start, the oil was somewhat colder with your tube, which would explain the increased pressure over the stock tube.

It looks like the oil wasn't quite up to the cooler thermostat temp, so the oil was still colder but heating up during the hot start test with your tube. That probably suggests some leakage during starting at higher temps.

During the pull, the oil was hotter with your tube, so that could explain the slight drop in pressure relative to the stock tube.

It seems that there is some leakage during startup. Once the oil is moving, there doesn't seem to be any more leakage.

I think the oil port in my block is at a slightly different angle than your block. Probably a function of core shift. For reference, my block is also a later model B230FT.





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Old 08-12-2019, 05:11 PM   #118
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maybe this would be a cause to switch to a more compliant and softer o-ring so you get better sealing over a range of installations.
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Old 08-12-2019, 05:24 PM   #119
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I actually did log oil temp in the sump. Looks like during cold start, the oil was somewhat colder with your tube, which would explain the increased pressure over the stock tube.

It looks like the oil wasn't quite up to the cooler thermostat temp, so the oil was still colder but heating up during the hot start test with your tube. That probably suggests some leakage during starting at higher temps.

During the pull, the oil was hotter with your tube, so that could explain the slight drop in pressure relative to the stock tube.

It seems that there is some leakage during startup. Once the oil is moving, there doesn't seem to be any more leakage.

I think the oil port in my block is at a slightly different angle than your block. Probably a function of core shift. For reference, my block is also a later model B230FT.
Are you pretty confident that the fittings are inserted into their respective sockets(Block/Oil Pump)? When I install the Oil tubes into my block, I have to do a bit of fiddling to make sure they are seated all the way.

The stock oil tube's smaller diameter and larger o-rings probably go a long way for compensating for any manufacturing variances and rough surface finishes. My design is a lot more sensitive to those issues.

I've designed the geometry and welding fixtures around my particular block and I don't have much data on manufacturing variances. I'm assuming the factory must have a reasonable allowable tolerance for the oil pump mounting and fitting locations....

Any way, I'll be sending out about 10 more assemblies this week so hopefully I can get more useful feedback from other people.
I definitely will be updating and improving the design over time though.
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Old 08-12-2019, 05:39 PM   #120
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maybe this would be a cause to switch to a more compliant and softer o-ring so you get better sealing over a range of installations.
True, assuming that is a problem.
I'm using 1.5mm x 14mm Brown Viton o-rings(75A durometer) so they are a bit harder than stock. And quite a bit thinner.

I designed the fittings to be a close fit to the bores so if they are inserted into the block and oil pump fully, there should only be ~2deg max misalignment in the bores which is well within the 2 o-rings ability to seal. And the surface finish would have to really bad to affect the sealing. And there are 2 o-rings per fitting... So that's why I'm having a hard time with the idea of leakage.

However, if the oil socket bores on other blocks are larger in diameter and have a rough finish, then maybe there could be issues.

I am really tempted to take a hosed, bare squirter block and mount a pump in it, block all passages after the pump inlet to the block, spin the oil pump and visually inspect for leakage.

In future designs I've already accommodated a 2mm thick o-ring, double stacked with a bit more wall clearance in the bores, just in case.
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Old 08-12-2019, 06:57 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by CaseyHooligan View Post
Are you pretty confident that the fittings are inserted into their respective sockets(Block/Oil Pump)? When I install the Oil tubes into my block, I have to do a bit of fiddling to make sure they are seated all the way.

The stock oil tube's smaller diameter and larger o-rings probably go a long way for compensating for any manufacturing variances and rough surface finishes. My design is a lot more sensitive to those issues.

I've designed the geometry and welding fixtures around my particular block and I don't have much data on manufacturing variances. I'm assuming the factory must have a reasonable allowable tolerance for the oil pump mounting and fitting locations....

Any way, I'll be sending out about 10 more assemblies this week so hopefully I can get more useful feedback from other people.
I definitely will be updating and improving the design over time though.
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True, assuming that is a problem.
I'm using 1.5mm x 14mm Brown Viton o-rings(75A durometer) so they are a bit harder than stock. And quite a bit thinner.

I designed the fittings to be a close fit to the bores so if they are inserted into the block and oil pump fully, there should only be ~2deg max misalignment in the bores which is well within the 2 o-rings ability to seal. And the surface finish would have to really bad to affect the sealing. And there are 2 o-rings per fitting... So that's why I'm having a hard time with the idea of leakage.

However, if the oil socket bores on other blocks are larger in diameter and have a rough finish, then maybe there could be issues.

I am really tempted to take a hosed, bare squirter block and mount a pump in it, block all passages after the pump inlet to the block, spin the oil pump and visually inspect for leakage.

In future designs I've already accommodated a 2mm thick o-ring, double stacked with a bit more wall clearance in the bores, just in case.
I would be more concerned with misalignment and geometric tolerances then surface finish.

Think about how the oil pumps are assembled and how they bolt to the block. Theres some variance there... probably need to make sure that you can compensate for that with the o-rings. Also put into play the fact that you are fixing the oil tube in one position with that brace. Everything has to be spot on perfect for it work. You want something you dont have to fiddle with that an average rookie can slap in and get oil pressure.

Volvo used a big o-ring like that for a reason and it works. the brace and the redesigned tube are great... you might be shooting yourself in the foot by over tolerancing the fit of the oil tube.
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Old 08-12-2019, 07:22 PM   #122
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I would be more concerned with misalignment and geometric tolerances then surface finish.

Think about how the oil pumps are assembled and how they bolt to the block. Theres some variance there... probably need to make sure that you can compensate for that with the o-rings. Also put into play the fact that you are fixing the oil tube in one position with that brace. Everything has to be spot on perfect for it work. You want something you dont have to fiddle with that an average rookie can slap in and get oil pressure.

Volvo used a big o-ring like that for a reason and it works. the brace and the redesigned tube are great... you might be shooting yourself in the foot by over tolerancing the fit of the oil tube.
You might not have noticed, I've slotted the brace mounting holes and left generous clearance around the bolts to allow some movement during mounting.

I'll be sending out a recommended installation procedure with these prototypes to help understand the intended fitting. The oil pump bolts attaching the brace are to be tightened after installation of the oil tube/oil pump are in the block.

I understand there is a tendency to formulate an opinion around Tate's post, but at least reserve judgement until you try it for yourself.

And God help a rookie who is building his own engine and "slapping" parts on!
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Old 08-12-2019, 07:57 PM   #123
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I haven't fired up my fresh rebuilt B20 since I built it last year, I remember denting my tube to get around these bolts and that the fitment/sealing of my tube was questionable.

Wish these were around when I built mine, if I don't make good oil pressure I'll be seeking out one of these when I end up rebuilding the engine
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Old 08-12-2019, 08:31 PM   #124
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B20 oil pump tubes aren't the same as B21/B23/B230.

There are 2 different tubes for B21 as well. Early B21's used an early oil pump with a different tube that is the correct tube if you want to vert mount a B21/B23 using a B20 pump. The pump and tube were updated to the late style that was used on all later redblocks. The B20 pump won't fit a B230 because a counterweight on the crank hits the pump. You need to shorten a late style pump if you want to vert mount a B230 using a B20 pan.
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Old 08-12-2019, 10:33 PM   #125
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[QUOTE=blkaplan;5985249
Volvo used a big o-ring like that for a reason and it works. the brace and the redesigned tube are great... you might be shooting yourself in the foot by over tolerancing the fit of the oil tube.[/QUOTE]

Isn't the failure mode of the Volvo tube that it blows out that big, forgiving o-ring? I know the shoulder that supports the o-ring on the Volvo tube is too small and too round, so maybe a good compromise would be to use the OEM (or similar) o-ring, but give it a better shoulder?
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