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Old 04-15-2020, 02:05 PM   #1
klr142
Turbo, what?
 
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Exclamation NA performance? Look here.

Interested in NON-TURBO, normally aspirated power increases? Here's a lot of info to digest if you'd like!

Most of this is about engine performance, but to have a fast normally aspirated car, you need to “add lightness” and short gearing to give you as much mechanical advantage as possible. Getting rid of that 3.31 differential in your rear end can help more than you think! Smaller diameter wheels and tires are lighter and give you better gearing as well.


LH TUNING:
I also included a zipped folder attachment with bin and xdf files and the checksum tool for TunerPro if you're running LH2.4 or LH3.1 and want to do some tuning of your own! You'll need need to download TunerPro or the BOSCH LH 2.4 EDITOR in order to tune your own stuff. If you don't have an Ostrich, you can get a chip burner online and do it that way instead if wanted(Ostrich recommended!). I also included a tweaked 951 bin file and notes that I'm running on my car as of right now with a slightly shaved 530 head, .036" headgasket, 16V White-Top fuel injectors, H cam, opened airbox and exhaust mods if you want to try it out.

Here's a reference to past and current NA performance discussions with at least some decent info in each. Some of the info is older, but mostly it's good and worth reading. The earlier threads in each section are more recent(or will be when I get around to organizing).

I can also put together a bunch of dyno plots.

Squish/quench/thin headgasket/piston-head clearance discussions:
Building a tight squish motor: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=110700
Shaving the head for bigger bangs: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=348598
What's the thinnest Cometic you've run?: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=274989
Any problems running thinner headgasket for quench?: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=251784

Camshaft discussions:

VX worth the cost?: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=266225
A cam, B cam, IPD T cam, D cam: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=150954
V vs VX: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=277707
H or K: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=275416
A or B: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=341814
A or VX3: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=342490
Effects of changing camshaft timing: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=209648
RSI NA cam in action: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=164071
B21 with RSI NA cam: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=266267
Redblock aftermarket cam experiences: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=333776
We measured redblock cams: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=337956

General NA performance:
NA performance goals: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=354436
Emissions and NA performance: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=353970
How much power can you get NA: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=272196
531 worth it on NA?: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=275133
Coach me on NA build: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=290198
NA power: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=337311
Drifts N Lifts header test(watch all the engine related videos): http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=342098
531 on NA auto: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=342456
World Record B230 Power: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=348117
LH 3.1 NA stuff: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=349476
LH 3.1 NA basic build: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=355121
Streetable 8V vs 16V: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=347900
B21F/K-jet manifold on B230: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=267011
What kind of exhaust?: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=252103
Rebuilding a B21F for modest gains: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=244434
General performance: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=250869
General torque/performance: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=245008
Camshaft selection, head height/shaving, etc.: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=152983
Intake plenum: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=153339
NA upgrade order: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=145344
Cam choices for high compression: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=140759
Stealthfti/Thomas Fritz(RIP ☹️) gallery with lots of longevity/efficiency tricks: https://pbase.com/stealthfti/root
16V/B234 upgrades(with Erland Cox!): http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=249791
More NA power in a nutshell(with JohnV): http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=337311

And there's many more, but a good start. Feel free to share other threads that you've saved.
Attached Files
File Type: zip NA LH2.4 8V + 16V + LH3.1 tuning kit.zip (348.5 KB, 23 views)

Last edited by klr142; 10-09-2020 at 10:04 AM.. Reason: Added zip file + links
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Old 04-17-2020, 07:58 AM   #2
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Old 04-17-2020, 11:23 AM   #3
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I'm stoked to dig into these. Thanks Kyle!
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Old 04-17-2020, 01:53 PM   #4
klr142
Turbo, what?
 
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Reserved for dyno plots...
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Old 04-17-2020, 07:12 PM   #5
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No turbo, just real power

There should be an NA highest HP/quarter mile competition
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Old 04-17-2020, 07:38 PM   #6
740atl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hessam69 View Post
No turbo, just real power

There should be an NA highest HP/quarter mile competition
There should be a "look how much money I just spent to go this slow competition".
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Old 04-30-2020, 05:51 PM   #7
klr142
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I added a zip file with a bunch of LH tuning bins and xdfs for those looking to tweak their LH2.4 8V, LH2.4 16V and LH3.1 8V NA cars to the first post! I also threw in my personal 951 bin from my 244 with a basic package on it(slight shaved head, H cam, thinner headgasket and other basic tweaks with 16V white-top injectors).

Quote:
Originally Posted by hessam69 View Post
No turbo, just real power

There should be an NA highest HP/quarter mile competition
It's more fun to beat the slow turbo cars in the EvW competition, and mostly, there's just not enough people actually getting out to the drag strip and posting about it on TB anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 740atl View Post
There should be a "look how much money I just spent to go this slow competition".
Boooring.
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Old 04-30-2020, 06:06 PM   #8
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Depends on application. Sometimes turbo good, sometimes, turbo not.
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Old 05-04-2020, 09:52 PM   #9
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Some good NA info/advice when I enquired about tuning the B234. hth

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=249791
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Old 07-17-2020, 08:27 PM   #10
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Thanks for the post!
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Old 07-28-2020, 12:51 PM   #11
culberro
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Info on shorter timing belts: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=235689

Square tooth, 122T: Gates T013
DODGE CHALLENGER 1978-1979
DODGE COLT 1977-1979
FORD PINTO 1971-1974
MERCURY CAPRI 1971-1974
PLYMOUTH ARROW 1977-1980
PLYMOUTH CHAMP 1979-1980
PLYMOUTH COLT 1977-1980
PLYMOUTH SAPPORO 1978-1979


Round tooth, 122T: Continental TB089
DODGE COLT VISTA 1985-1986
DODGE COLT VISTA CUSTOM 1986
DODGE RAM 50 1985-1986
MITSUBISHI CORDIA 1985-1986
MITSUBISHI MIGHTY MAX 1985-1986
MITSUBISHI TREDIA 1985-1986
PLYMOUTH COLT VISTA 1985-1986
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Old 10-09-2020, 02:37 AM   #12
klr142
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Oh hi! Thanks Robert for the shorter belt info.

I should just throw some basic recipes in here for people to follow. I'll slap this here for now but will eventually add them to the first post. Here are a couple real quick and rough ones. Well, the first step is pretty much filled out and assumes you already have a good Stage 0 of no vacuum leaks, good plugs, wires, cap/rotor, all sensors functioning properly, throttle is cleaned, etc...

Cheap N/A power step 1 in no particular order(go from 60-90whp/90-110wtrq and 18-20+ second 1/4 mile times to 90-120whp/120-140wtrq and 16-18 second 1/4 mile times):

1. Tighten your valves on your current camshaft(.012-.014")! If using a D, K or H cam, you'll want to keep the clearances closer to .016" or .018" for a better/smoother idle and off idle performance because they have higher duration and overlap than all the other factory equipped cams. The tighter the valve clearances, the "larger" the camshaft becomes, but it will also pollute more and idle worse. On most of the factory cams, they'll still idle just fine, but the D, K and H in particular can be rough with tighter clearances, and it won't be ideal if you have stock compression and engine management.
2. Clean your fuel system/injectors and soak your pistons to get rid of carbon build-up, especially in the rings to restore lost compression(Seafoam, Marvel Mystery oil, "top end cleaner", Techron, etc.). Have your injectors cleaned if you'd like, or just do the Techron or similar fuel system cleaner in your tank.
3. Raise the ignition timing if on LH2.2 or earlier. You won't want to do much if running regular fuel and using the smaller or original camshaft, but you can get away with more if running the larger camshafts that have more duration such as the D, K and H in particular as they reduce the Dynamic Compression Ratio more.
4. If running an M or T cam(T cam is better, by the way!), retard the cam timing 2-4 degrees if you happen to get an adjustable gear cheap(make sure it's legit and the timing marks are accurate). If you can afford a cam swap, just about anything is an upgrade(not the L!).
5. The D, K or H cam will be a little sluggish off idle on a stock long block without custom spark and/or fuel tuning, but they'll all work fine and make reasonable power from 2000rpm on up, with more than any of the others above 3000/3500rpm or so. The K cam is the best all around factory cam. The H idles worse and may make more peak power in some circumstances, but it doesn't have as good of idle quality as the K and doesn't make that much more than the K in peak power, if any at all in some people's experiences. With these cams, if you have an adjustable cam gear, you may want to advance it 2-4 degrees to improve your low end torque in daily use.
6: Remove the hot air intake flap from the airbox and re-route the pre-heat tube to fresh air at the front of the car(in the bottom spoiler, or the other side of the radiator support on the other side of the radiator).
7. Not necessary, but if you want, you can modify the exhaust with different mufflers. Ideally, you'd upgrade to at least 2.25" piping such as the original style turbo exhaust with the single muffler in the back. Not much power to be gained here, but it'll sound better and make a little bit of difference just like everything else.

"Cheap" N/A power step 2(110-135whp/130-145wtrq and 15-16 second 1/4 mile times):
To come one day, but basically, SHAVE THE HEAD and use a minimum of a B, A, V, VX, D, K or H camshaft. Ideally you'd be using something along the lines of an IPD Turbo cam, ENEM V15NA(likely almost as much peak power as the K and H camshafts, but a wider powerband with more torque), V16NA or similar offerings from other vendors. A thinner headgasket is your friend, and .030-.040" maximum piston to head clearance will improve combustion efficiency and help prevent detonation. If your bottom end is in good shape and you don't want to rev over 6,000rpm, many have gone even tighter than that(possibly some as low as .020" clearance, but you're likely pushing your luck!). Here you'll want your 2.5" exhaust starting at the factory 2-1 merge in the downpipe and continue it back. You'll want/need to look into adjusting your ignition timing and likely your fueling to dial things in providing a better powerband and keep detonation at bay. Premium fuel may be required depending on your compression and camshaft choices. Factory ignition timing can be too much advance in some circumstances. This engine can still pull very strongly from basically idle and have more power than stock starting at very low rpm(2000rpm?). It can be very efficient and great for daily use and keeping up with or even beating modern traffic depending on the rest of the setup. Works fine with automatic transmissions.

Not cheap N/A power step 3(135-175whp/!140-170wtrq):
Recommended minimum of the K-jet intake manifold for the larger diameter runners for best results. You can do over 140whp on the stock B230F style manifold, but it's basically at its peak and holding you back. You will want a larger diameter 2-1 downpipe for best results, but stock sized can still do over 140whp. Your K/H cam is near their limits and you ideally will be running something more modern with at least 12mm of lift, such as the Enem K13 or preferably even larger(Enem C2 is a lovely beast). You will want to look into having port work done to improve cylinder head flow, and/or the 531 cylinder head(neither are required for 135whp, but, the better the flow, the better the overall result). You can go to a properly sized 4-2-1 header if wanted, but it's not required(the General Leif has over 165whp still with a factory exhaust manifold). You will need the ability to tune your fuel and spark. Either LH2.4/3.1 with an Ostrich or custom chips, carbs, or stand-alone engine management of some sort. You will likely want at least .040"-.080" off your head. Maybe even more depending on your camshaft, piston-head clearance, cylinder head and what you do for opening up and unshrouding the valves in the combustion chamber. A fresh bottom end with good ring seal is your friend here(anywhere, but costs money), but it's not required. You do NOT NEED larger than stock valves. The General Leif is at/over 165whp with stock valves. Depending on camshaft choice and everything else, you may be able to accelerate fine from an idle, but it might not like full throttle until over 2000-3000rpm without special tuning.

EXPENSIVE N/A power step 4(MORE POWER and similar peak torque):

Last edited by klr142; 10-09-2020 at 03:07 AM..
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