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Old 08-16-2014, 07:52 PM   #1
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Default b23f 10.3:1 snapped timing belt

Replaced timing belt. Kjet bull**** is working, but won't fire up. Belt is 100% timed. So no lame questions asking if I am incompetant and didn't do the timing belt replacement right.

Question, B cam KJet 398 head , flat top piston B23F mated to all this mess.. If the ****iing belt breaks will valves touch? It sounds like the mother ****er has compression but I have no bloody arsed compression tester to verify. Worse yet, this beast is at my GF's moms house and she is a major biiiaaaattch and wants the car off the motherfecking shetfacking property asap.

So will this phucking thing bend valves if the stoopid motherfooking timing belt snaps?
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Old 08-16-2014, 07:59 PM   #2
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Hard to say, I have no idea if the head has been surfaced in the past. Most pistons on most of the '83 -early '84 engines I've measured come up 5-8 thou under deck. Stock height head and gasket, generally "no."

It's very improbable more than one valve touched even if it did crash, and usually it shatters a shim when that happens, and it will run on 3.something cylinders badly (with low compression on one), but it will run.

Knock the coil wire off? Had one where I knocked the coil+ wire off the ballast resistor...had spark while cranking, but as soon as the starter was released (and the current followed the usual path thru the ballast resistor for the "run" position), it would stall...that was an interesting one to diagnose, since there was obviously spark, fuel, compression, timing and no vacuum leaks while cranking. Maddening.

I gather from what you write that tools, workspace conditions and morale are somewhat lacking? Sounds like it has compression, sounds promising. Cold start valve have voltage/light a make shift test light? Spark? What do you available to check compression, timing, spark, and various FI components? Basic fuel flow test, cold start valve operation, basic spark test?

Also had one that had a weak spark from a bent star wheel in the dist once and one where the impulse coil was "partially shorted" meaning that it did have spark and would sputter, but wouldn't actually start. Weird.
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Old 08-16-2014, 08:11 PM   #3
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I couldn't test the cold start valve, no DMM available. Also it has a LH2.2 dizzy from a M47 1988 car - so ballast is deleted, and hte LH2.2 circuit has a dedicated +12V to it now. I checked the coil wire , the tach needle pulses on the dashboard while cranking over. This frankenstein is a 1977 245, with Lamba added to it from a 1980 KJet car.. It has ran fantastic up until the belt snapped while the GF was using the car. Fuel dizzy rebuilt , injectors, cold start injector is too.. I get an odor of fuel while cranking over but that's about it.

The B23F doesn't sound like it is skipping a cylinder while cranking over.. I had to give up when the battery got flat. I'll just get it towed here, likely is just something stupid maybe the plugs are wet perhaps. Just frustrated , having to work on this car while the GF's mom is gone and I have to split before she gets home. And.. the GF is 35!! LOL.. Anyways, it sucks. I'll get it towed here that's all I can do. I just hope the valves didn't touch ..
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Old 08-16-2014, 08:19 PM   #4
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Easy enough to check that the cam spins all the way around and it doesn't have a shattered shim...

So it has Mopar ignition or EZK or something? No bosch breakerless?

'77 with whole '78-'82 style k-lambda B21F fuel dist with frequency valve or '77 fuel dist with frequency valve added?

It is going to be easy/minor...once you find it I'd guess. Why it would act up with the t-belt snapping I have no idea.

If the frequency valve isn't getting power while cranking due to a fuse or lambda relay issue it will flood out and won't start most times on lambda cars, or will start and run very badly and flood all the way out.
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Old 08-16-2014, 08:25 PM   #5
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Fuel, fire and compression. Need all 3 to make it run.
Check for spark and fuel delivery, you can do that without a compression gauge.
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Old 08-16-2014, 08:31 PM   #6
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It is a 1980 Kjet freq valve circuit with ECU driving it , o2 sensor in place . Freq valve buzzes while cranking over. Standard green Kjet fuel relay , pump spins while cranking over.

Ignition is the mopar variant, I selected it for the timing curve , it is being driven by a 740T ignition coil presently.

I bet it is somthing stupid too, I just got frustrated and in a hurry and you know how that goes. GF was cranking it over endlessly when the TB broke , belt lost teeth at the crankshaft, so no dizzy turning over, and no fuel into the B23F with the old timing belt. I hand turned the B23F and saw no dizzy movement or cam but saw the belt looked fine.. until I removed it and saw what happend.

So who knows if there are damaged the valves or not, the GF cranked the car over alot when it broke. It sure cranks over like it always has, I had the belt one tooth off or two on initial cranking so maybe it is just as simple as that, I fouled the plugs up while the TB was off..

Overthinking a simple thing tends to lend to problems, doesn't it? Frusration compounds it too.. It is like the lights are on but no one is home on this 245.
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Old 08-16-2014, 08:34 PM   #7
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Cam roll pin shear? Usually that only happens when it is cold out with thick oil or something weird.

Just had a Honda CVCC '80 civic (with 80K original looking like brand new) snap a tbelt. Checked all the valve clearances to do a quick check for bent valves, slapped a tbelt on it, ran with a miss and found low compression on one hole. Had the head off it in like 1/2 hour, lapped another intake valve in it to replace the very slightly bent one, stuffed the head back on once checked for straight and it was back to starting and running perfect. I guess what I'm saying is I seriously doubt it smashed valves in all holes to make it not run at all.

It can be pretty ugly on the volvo 8V when a valve hits hard enough (which is rare since factory they are basically all non-interference with an uncut head). Shatters a shim, breaks a cam if it has a craptermarket cam, can smash a rod bearing/pinch the top piston ring/crack the ring land. The valves are so big and straight on the pistons with nothing to "bend" that if it really severely crashes, it is pretty terrible. Though thrown tbelt on a white engine often means find another engine...common.

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Old 08-16-2014, 08:39 PM   #8
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Maybe so. Weird how the belt just lost the teeth at the crankshaft - OEM Volvo timing belt, less than 10k on it. Delo 40 oil I run. I guess I'll have a fun time with it once I get it back home.. Pull a plug or two and look at them, and go from there. I didn't even have a spark plug socket to do that basic of a test today.
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Old 08-16-2014, 08:50 PM   #9
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i aint never had a mother****ing b23f bend on bad timing belt ****, i bet you would have to be revving that badass mother****er pretty damn hard to break ****, and even then, i bet that **** dont fly, i wouldnt fret dat ****


and pics of gf mom or ban.
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Old 08-16-2014, 08:53 PM   #10
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Maybe so. Weird how the belt just lost the teeth at the crankshaft - OEM Volvo timing belt, less than 10k on it. Delo 40 oil I run. I guess I'll have a fun time with it once I get it back home.. Pull a plug or two and look at them, and go from there. I didn't even have a spark plug socket to do that basic of a test today.
That's worthy of investigation...tensioner idler locked up or head warped in the past or something strange to cause the cam to bind? Aux shaft binding? Very strange.
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Old 08-16-2014, 08:53 PM   #11
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If running a block mounted distributor, make sure the distributor is timed correctly.
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Old 08-16-2014, 09:11 PM   #12
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GF was cranking it over endlessly when the TB broke , belt lost teeth at the crankshaft, so no dizzy turning over, and no fuel into the B23F with the old timing belt. ... GF cranked the car over alot when it broke....maybe it is just as simple as that, I fouled the plugs up while the TB was off..
Hope the csv just washed the cylinder walls free of oil and all you need is a couple squirts in each hole after airing them out. Don't know why you think scraping off the teeth at the crank is unusual -- have you actually snapped timing belts? Not speaking of brand new ones like this example though.
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Old 08-16-2014, 09:21 PM   #13
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New tensioner 10k ago too, spins freely . I'll pull the plugs, test cold start injector there isn't much more I can do. The bloody thing should just run, this is no fun. No pun intended. Dun.

Engine cranks over at the usual "speed", doesn't skip or sound fast.. Has to be making compression .
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Old 08-16-2014, 09:29 PM   #14
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I assume you are smart enough to install and re-tension a t-belt correctly, so unless it is getting oily or something is binding, usually they make it the 50K/6 years interval minimum even if you flog the snot out of them and don't believe in maintenance or even dealing with continuous massive oil leaks.
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Old 08-16-2014, 09:50 PM   #15
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Yeah, has me scrooching my grouchy arsed head. Should have jus ran as it always been. redblock tensioners are so brainless . I rebuilt this B23F personally 10k miles ago myself too. Dummy oil light goes off whilst cranking this beastly with the replaced TB. I guess the answer is mostly made - it should be okay, just wasn't sure if a measly b cam and KJet head could bend valves is the ghist of my spazzing out this afternoooooooooon or evening, whatever. Where is the next drink .
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Old 08-16-2014, 09:53 PM   #16
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:(
I've shredded a tbelt on a b23f auto 84'
Ran fine with a new one.
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Old 08-18-2014, 10:18 PM   #17
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Got it towed home today, pulled plugs. Flooded out. Re-verified timing at the crank pulley and intermediate and camshaft. All is well. Decide to poke into cyl #1 to verify TDC, and it was not!

Found that TDC was 90 degrees off at the crankshaft. The crank pulley marks were off by 90 degrees. Looks like someone put the crank "balancer" on 90 degrees off. I removed the crank balancer, and put it back to where it should be, and of course the car fired right up and is back to it's old self.
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Old 08-18-2014, 10:59 PM   #18
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Pics of the mom?
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Old 08-18-2014, 11:26 PM   #19
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My old '81 242DL had a B23E in it. My torque wrench had failed, so, when I torqued the crankshaft bolt to what I thought was 122 ft. lbs, it was more like 22 ft. lbs. Cracked the crank gear, which caused the same failure as yours with the t-belt twice. My car did run after the belt was replaced both times, but it was frustrating to have it occur. First time was while doing about 2000 rpm on a flat surface after going up a hill. Second time happened when I was waiting at a light. It just stopped running. First time, I fixed it myself. Second time, towed the car to a repair shop. They discovered the damaged gear.

Anyway, good to see that it's running again. I would keep an eye on the gear though. Don't need it failing again.

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Old 08-20-2014, 05:39 AM   #20
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My old '81 242DL had a B23E in it. My torque wrench had failed, so, when I torqued the crankshaft bolt to what I thought was 122 ft. lbs, it was more like 22 ft. lbs.
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really.

Considering you probably used the starter or jumped on a breaker bar to take it off i don't see how you made the mistake of thinking 22 was tight
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Old 08-20-2014, 06:28 AM   #21
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really.

Considering you probably used the starter or jumped on a breaker bar to take it off i don't see how you made the mistake of thinking 22 was tight
Reading comprehension much?

Torque wrench failed. Was set to 122, it clicked when it did. Didn't discover the issue later until I inspected the wrench while redoing the t-belt. Relegated said Craftsman torque wrench to breaker bar usage after it was replaced with a working copy.

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Old 08-21-2014, 03:18 AM   #22
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Found that TDC was 90 degrees off at the crankshaft. The crank pulley marks were off by 90 degrees. Looks like someone put the crank "balancer" on 90 degrees off. I removed the crank balancer, and put it back to where it should be, and of course the car fired right up and is back to it's old self.
Sorry, but it seems like there's something missing here. I always thought the B23f had a crank gear and hub, with a 2-piece pulley bolted to the front of them. With the gear keyed to the crank, it should only go on one way. So if the crank gear, cam, and intermediate gear are timed properly ("Belt is 100% timed. So no lame questions asking if I am incompetant and didn't do the timing belt replacement right"), just taking off the pulley and putting it "back to where it should be" won't change anything. UNLESS you meant to add "... and then I reset the cam &/or ignition timing using the newly positioned pulley marks", which would be even stranger, since the pulley should have 6 bolts, making a 90 degree turn impossible.
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Old 08-21-2014, 12:05 PM   #23
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Reading comprehension much?
I read the same way. Who could not feel the difference between 22 and 122 regardless of what some click told him?
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Old 08-21-2014, 05:43 PM   #24
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Who the **** cares.

The car is running, the pulley notch is 90 degrees (or so off). But who cares, everyone has something to prove, especially on the internet. The 245 is running great once again.

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Sorry, but it seems like there's something missing here. I always thought the B23f had a crank gear and hub, with a 2-piece pulley bolted to the front of them. With the gear keyed to the crank, it should only go on one way. So if the crank gear, cam, and intermediate gear are timed properly ("Belt is 100% timed. So no lame questions asking if I am incompetant and didn't do the timing belt replacement right"), just taking off the pulley and putting it "back to where it should be" won't change anything. UNLESS you meant to add "... and then I reset the cam &/or ignition timing using the newly positioned pulley marks", which would be even stranger, since the pulley should have 6 bolts, making a 90 degree turn impossible.
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Old 08-22-2014, 04:25 AM   #25
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Who the **** cares.
Jeez, lighten up.
How about anyone else who may have a no-start condition?
Or anyone who is trying to help someone else diagnose a no-start condition?
I guess we'll just tell them that all you have to do is rotate the pulley a few notches, and if that doesn't work, scrap the car.
Have a nice day.
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