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Old 05-07-2006, 03:12 PM   #101
Les, slight limp
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If you pm your email i'll send a picture that might help, Les.
I used a triangular file for the grooves, so the deeper they are the wider they are, approx 6-7mm wide as it exits into the chamber, the smaller grooves are about 3mm wide.
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Old 05-08-2006, 08:25 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Les, slight limp
....I used a triangular file for the grooves, so the deeper they are the wider they are, approx 6-7mm wide as it exits into the chamber, the smaller grooves are about 3mm wide.
I received your picture and agree with the theory of the proposed groove location.

Let’s talk about the groove itself. Using the triangle file is good, limit the width to 3mm. When you get to 3mm wide and see need to go deeper (deep is a good thing), use a hacksaw blade to cut the depth. This way you can get the desired depth with out cutting the groove too wide. Remember one of the primary goals is to maintain and enhance squish velocity. Cutting the groove more than 3mm wide will dampen this effect.

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Old 05-09-2006, 09:04 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les, slight limp
...i just wish another of the volvo guys would try it, it gets a bit tiring being considered a nutter and bullcrapper by most on the board, we would have 2 nutters then lol.
I'm trying to get there and I know of one other person who is considering it as well. He is the one that reminded me of it. I have two other heads at home so it's just a matter of getting some other things squared away with my car and paying some needed attention to my wifes car.

I have complete faith in the mod and I can't wait to do some testing.
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Old 05-09-2006, 07:32 PM   #104
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.... I have two other heads at home ...
Do you have pictures of the heads? Are they the same as Les's head?
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Old 05-10-2006, 02:19 AM   #105
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Who'd a thunk it?! cutting into your head can have a benefit afterall! Im going to make my "groove" a smilie face :P
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Old 05-10-2006, 03:39 AM   #106
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The head i did as a trial is a 530, the one i'm doing now is a 531, as far as the grooves are concerned the main squish area is slightly smaller on the 531 so ive only had room to put one groove in the path of the flame (theory), i'm still finishing of my car swap but hopefully i can get the head fitted the weekend then we can see what the grooves have performed like on the head, iv'e had a few looks at the plugs (got photo), the plugs are the same ones you can see in the head mod pic, i wanted the test to be as difficult as possible as cleaning up manky plugs is far more impressive than using new ones, the grooves have returned the plugs to "as new".
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Old 05-10-2006, 08:57 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Les, slight limp
the plugs are the same ones you can see in the head mod pic, i wanted the test to be as difficult as possible as cleaning up manky plugs is far more impressive than using new ones, the grooves have returned the plugs to "as new".
OK, so I'm clear - you used the same, uncleaned plugs and the grooves cleaned them?

If so... Freakin SWEET! That's reason enough right there to do the grooves - if no other part of the theory holds!
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Old 05-10-2006, 09:20 AM   #108
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New "to me" 740 gle is now on the road with the engine and gearbox out of my old rusty gl, with an exhaust that works it now pulls down to 800 rpm without a complaint in 5th gear, number 1 combustion chamber on the 531 has been grooved and the others marked so it's looking good for the weekend as long as the weather holds.

Chris PM me your email and i'll send a pic of the plugs so you can compare before and after.
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Old 05-10-2006, 09:20 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by automotivebreath
Do you have pictures of the heads? Are they the same as Les's head?
They are the same. 530's. One has had some port work done by another member and will need to be rebuilt after the grooving. The other I picked up specifically for testing. A bone stock 530 with an M cam from another NA B230. I wanted to groove it first then do some testing to get some good before and after numbers but my time over the next number of months is becoming seriously sparse so I may just groove the ported head, slap it in, and call it a day.
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Old 05-10-2006, 06:22 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les, slight limp
...far as the grooves are concerned the main squish area is slightly smaller on the 531 so ive only had room to put one groove in the path of the flame (theory...

...the grooves have returned the plugs to "as new"....
The way I see it everything inside the combustion chamber should be in the path of the flame, but that's not always the case.

I get the same result with race cars, can you email me the picture of the plugs?
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Old 05-11-2006, 03:27 PM   #111
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Very Interesting thread indeed.

Wheres the pictures of the plugs??
are they posted anywhere?
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Old 05-11-2006, 04:44 PM   #112
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I would have expected the plugs to be a bit sooty, iv'e modded my carb for a turbo so i know it's running way rich in the upper revs, weather forecast reckons it's going to chuck it down the weekend, i'll cross my fingers that the bbc has got it wrong as usual, 2 of the chambers on the 531 are grooved with the 4 grooves per chamber so let's just hope my thinking isn't way off otherwise the fifty quid for the 531 is wasted.
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Old 05-11-2006, 05:11 PM   #113
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Hope Les doesn't mind... If so, just PM me and I'll pull it down (and replace it with the pic of you with the engine hoist )

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Old 05-11-2006, 10:38 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Chris_R
OK, so I'm clear - you used the same, uncleaned plugs and the grooves cleaned them?

If so... Freakin SWEET! That's reason enough right there to do the grooves - if no other part of the theory holds!
It’s no longer a theory; the results are very consistent regardless of engine design. Somender has been doing this for over ten years.

Les’s plugs are typical of what we are seeing with our grooved race engines running rich air/fuel mixtures. I have done about 20 engines so far all with the same results. If you look closely you can see a tint of the signature blue burn of a grooved engine at the base of the ground electrode.

If Les were to mill the head to raise the compression the potential would be unleashed.
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Old 05-11-2006, 10:54 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by automotivebreath
If Les were to mill the head to raise the compression the potential would be unleashed.
And there it is there! This is the same thing I mentioned earlier. The grooves themselves don't make power, but they certainly enable alterations to the physical design and ignition that can.
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Old 05-11-2006, 11:02 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by BDKR
And there it is there! This is the same thing I mentioned earlier. The grooves themselves don't make power, but they certainly enable alterations to the physical design and ignition that can.
I have seen some race engines that respond very well to the grooves alone. These engines already had high compression and other modifications.

One instance that comes to mind, I grooved a small block Ford early this year with no other modifications. The engine responded with more torque and horsepower. I believe the engine was running with detonation before the grooves were cut and the modification eliminated the problem.
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Old 05-12-2006, 03:01 AM   #117
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I don't want to mill the head as the engine will soon be + t'd, that is my reasoning for doing the grooves, there is a wealth of info on somenders site but nothing about turbo's and grooves, you know what people are like until someone takes the plunge and sort of proves that the engines aren't going to suffer terminal damage no-one else will try it, if i thought for one minute that this could be anything but beneficial i'd never have done it, hopefully in 3 months we'll be able to say, see a working turbo engine, goes like stink on a crappy stromberg carb, another tick for somender singhs grooves.
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Old 05-12-2006, 09:35 PM   #118
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Latest pics, courtesy of Les:




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Old 05-13-2006, 02:44 AM   #119
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Thanks chris, did i send you the pic with my theories about mixture and flame movement and what the extra grooves are trying to achieve, it might be a bit easier for people to chime in with their thoughts if they can see what i'm trying to do.

I'm convinced somenders grooves work, there is just too much evidence now to try to say otherwise, what is still theory is to why it works and where to best place the grooves, somenders work on the central groove aimed at the spark plug has proven that location as the main one, what makes this so interesting is how we can help the main groove do its job even more efficiently.

Somenders grooves and tight squish go for the same problem in different ways, tight squish decreases squish volume in that area, burning more of the mixture and leaving less mixture to detonate, because the engine is now more efficient you can up the c/r or boost until the detonation threshold is reached again.
The grooves aim to burn the mixture more efficently and goes for a total burn approach by actually encouraging the flame "into" the squish area, that's why a deck clearance of 70 thou is recomended, that the grooves make the engine more efficient by burning more of the fuel is proven, the only way to make an existing head less prone to detonation at the same settings is to leave less unburnt fuel to detonate, thus we "know" that tight squish and the grooves work, however, much work has been done with tight squish so the threshold is pretty much known, grooves on the other hand need more data collecting to find out what the new detonation threshold is and if by a different pattern of grooves that threshold can be maximised for a given combustion chamber shape.

Many thanks to thomas for his work on volvo tight squish, i hope iv'e explained it ok in an easy to understand way, if iv'e used any terms in a wrong way i apologise, i'm not an engineering graduate, just an ordinary bloke with an interest in rwd volvo's.
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Old 05-13-2006, 03:58 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les, slight limp
I don't want to mill the head as the engine will soon be + t'd,...
The grooved head and turbo to provide the increased cylinder pressure, they should go well together.
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Old 05-13-2006, 04:58 AM   #121
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I thought you'd be racing all weekend, yes that's the plan, i'll have to see how it goes.
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Old 05-14-2006, 09:42 AM   #122
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I just pulled the B20 out of the 1800es when I stumbled on this thread.....Looks very interesting, and i might just have to groove it now. I'll post before and after shots
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Old 05-14-2006, 06:34 PM   #123
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Default Best way to make grooves?

Allright, I'm convinced it's worth cutting into my good head and trying this. What's the best way to make the grooves? I read one person used a triangular file - any other ideas? Cutting wheel maybe? Hacksaw?
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Old 05-15-2006, 02:05 PM   #124
Les, slight limp
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Allright, I'm convinced it's worth cutting into my good head and trying this. What's the best way to make the grooves? I read one person used a triangular file - any other ideas? Cutting wheel maybe? Hacksaw?
Best thing to do is go to somenders site and look at the various pic's on there, i used a triangular file because i'm disabled and it was easy to grip and get a neatish cut with, an able bodied person would do the mod in less than 2 hrs nice and steady.

The 531 with 4 grooves is now running, apart from a knackered A cam it's running great, i'll put the V cam in for comparison with the 2 groove head, i'm not keen on instant impressions so i'll post my honest feelings in about week when i've had a chance to live with it and test it for detonation resistance, les.
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Old 05-15-2006, 02:10 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les, slight limp
Thanks chris, did i send you the pic with my theories about mixture and flame movement and what the extra grooves are trying to achieve, it might be a bit easier for people to chime in with their thoughts if they can see what i'm trying to do.
This one?
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