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Old 05-15-2006, 04:22 PM   #126
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Your ideas are certainly interesting concerning flow inside the chamber. Additionally, yours are the first i've seen that depart from the recommendation that all of the grooves point at the spark plug. Not knocking what you are doing at all, just noting the difference.

When you get right down to it, this seems to negate something that was mentioned on fueleconomytips.com.

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.fueleconomytips.com/index...d=73&Itemid=43
On the compression stroke, they force the compressing air/fuel charge into the quench area via higher velocity jet streams to better vaporize and homogenize the fuel. On the power stroke, they guide the explosion through these same jet streams but in reverse to create vorticies, to clean out the ring lands, and to some greater or lesser degree further excite the flame front.
In particular, the direction of the grooves that point towards the center ones seem as though they would minimize the positive phenomenea of directing part of the flame front out to the ring lands. Those grooves won't.

Actually, it seems as though you are thinking about flow in the wrong dimension here. It seems that you are seeing this as swirl in the horizontal plane where eddies in the vertical may be more appropriate?

HOWEVER, I can see a real benefit on the compression stroke. I guess the real question (ASSuming my observations are correct) is if the compression effect outweights what I see as a negative once the combustion process occurs.

Anyway, I plan on at least looking at files this evening and considering methods of how I'll accomplish grooving my heads.

One more time: I'm not trying to knock you or anything. Just commenting on what I see and hoping it will benefit the conversation.

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Old 05-15-2006, 04:57 PM   #127
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ALL comments are gratefully received providing they are of a constructive nature, i don't pretend to be an authority on grooves and cylinder head combustion, quite the reverse, i hope by people seeing my willingness to fail as well as succeed they can be encouraged to experiment, it is only by pooling resources that we can prove what does and does not work in an actual sense instead of theorising for the rest of our days, keep the input going it is much appreciated.

Im just trying to guide the flow around the combustion chamber to reach as much fuel as possible, to be honest i hadn't given any thought to vertical or horizontal vortices or the way they interact with each other, it just looked as if the shape of the chamber would push the jet to the left so there was no point in trying to get it to come straight back at the groove, i'll send you a pic of the 530 tomorrow, i've been duff today after my head changing exertions of yesterday.

Last edited by Les, slight limp; 05-15-2006 at 05:27 PM..
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Old 05-15-2006, 10:59 PM   #128
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Les, it’s great to see you take this concept, add a few ideas of your own and put it in use to witness the results yourself. So many people have been quick to criticize the whole idea. This concept is so new to people here the only way to know for sure is like you are doing, witness it your self.

I have been able to realize the benefits with one single groove in each cylinder. That certainly doesn’t mean that what I am doing is ideal, most likely it’s far from it. Eventually more will be known about this simple yet effective idea. Until then have fun, hard work and dedication will provide the answers.

One thing to think about is what happens in the cylinder as the piston begins its path downward at the beginning of the power stroke. The piston moving away from the head pulls on the approaching flame front; the squish area is rapidly opening up and will be experiencing reverse flow to fill the void.

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Old 05-16-2006, 04:46 AM   #129
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The piston moving away from the flame is where i move away from the projected theory, as i see it (hence my different groove placement and it's only a theory) is that the flame is lit well before TDC and so the flame itself travelling at 300 m/sec or ft/sec i'm never sure on that one, is still being squished as it burns and then the piston takes more time to reach the opposite of the point of ignition ie 10 degrees after TDC, by 20 degrees after TDC you should have peak cylinder pressure and any burn of any significance should be over, there is a thread on engine geometry that set me thinking about how the piston slows down as it approaches TDC and sort of "dwells" for a time before shooting down again, until i read that i'd always thought of the piston moving at a constant speed, many thanks to Matt Dupuis for the info.
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Old 05-16-2006, 01:22 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les, slight limp
... there is a thread on engine geometry that set me thinking about how the piston slows down as it approaches TDC and sort of "dwells" for a time before shooting down again, until i read that i'd always thought of the piston moving at a constant speed, many thanks to Matt Dupuis for the info.
I'm not able to find the thread on engine geometry; can you provide a link?

I would like to read the thread. I understand piston dwell but I believe the actual location of the piston at the point in time that the flame front reaches the squish area depends on many variables like RPM, throttle position, flame kernel development, turbulence intensity, combustion chamber design, ignition advance, air/fuel mixture and many others.
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Old 05-16-2006, 03:41 PM   #131
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http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=32037

I think maybe people are taking this the wrong way, i'm not trying to rewrite somenders groove application, i wish volvo cylinder heads were like the photo's of grooved heads that i've seen, it would make my life much simpler, hey that looks a really good idea i thought, read everything i could by somender yourself and mpgmike and decided to have a go, oops volvo head not really suitable as such, maybe a slightly different approach is required with this shape of combustion chamber, tried a couple of grooves per cylinder and tested it to death, hey this works great, i just can't induce detonation perfect for my carby turbo job, this second head is just trying out something that's been going round my head since the first one, yes maybe an off the wall idea that goes against respected engineering practise, but what the heck, i don't smoke, can't drink, don't go out coz walking gets really painful really quick so i've got to have something that keeps the grey matter ticking over, not trying to step on toes here ok, that's why i quietly did the mod and then said hey guys heres something that works, maybe i should have done that with head mk2, as far as i'm concerned somender singh is a great man, i hope his ideas are taken up by the car industry but i doubt it, the only time the car industry does something new is by legislation or public demand, sorry if this is a bit of a ramble but that's how i do things, i'm not after any kudos just a carby turbo volvo that runs well, regards les.
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Old 05-16-2006, 04:15 PM   #132
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Hi Les & gang.

I seem to like your two main grooves.

Common sense seems to mean that your placement mixes the fuel better, and also alowing the flamefronts to access the squish areas and push down on the piston.

Thus I agree with BDKR re 3 dimention consideration, and to me mostly the vertical (down) dimension maybe very important , and if the grooves can promote pushing the piston down, ie getting the flame travelling downwards, as your two main grooves do, that makes sense (to me).

The newly added slim grooves dont fit in that theory. (thats not saying theyre wrong!)

Common sense also tells me I know nothing about thermodynamics, combustion, or flamefronts. Somenders not exactly sure on whats happening either!

Congrats to all particulary les for his groovy volvo pioneering, you have literally many followers Les!

On the piston speed issue, the piston indeed accelerates on the up stroke, slows towards the top, stops, then accelerates downwards, stops at the bottom, and then goes up.
Lets not get confused with average piston speed.
Piston speed /acceleration will play a part in the equation in some way.
What way? erm dunno !

Also Pison Velocity (speed) is different from acceleration. The acceleration after detonation would be high, but the piston will be at low velocity, The speed would increase greatly, and acceleration decline, till at some point on the combustion downstroke there was no (zero) acceleration and at this point the piston's speed would be maximum and the piston would starting to deaccelerate. This make reasonable sense??

Also on a four stroke engine theres intake, compression, power & exhaust strokes - grooves will affect each stroke, not just the power one.

Two stroke will be affected differently. and a rotary engine ..?? has anyone tried with a rotary?

Anyhow
Heres interesting piston aceleration info I found:
Rod Ratio - Kinematics
http://e30m3performance.com/tech_art...atio/index.htm

piston acceleration curves as a function of rod length
http://e30m3performance.com/tech_art...io/accel-1.gif

piston acceleration / velocity
http://yarchive.net/metal/piston_acceleration.html

This thread is great!

PS:
We know your not after kudos /respect Les ... But youve earnt it!
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Old 05-16-2006, 08:50 PM   #133
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Some very interesting reading, i knew i should have taken physics instead of biology lol, the trouble i tend to find with our mathematically learned friends is that they are used to moving the goalposts very slightly so that the equations fit the model, if you move the position of the little end slightly you end up with new figures, i'm just trying a few different things, the grooves that don't point at the plug are only meant to be effective on the combustion stroke as a sort of easier path for the flame to the squish area given the depth of the volvo combustion bowl, i tried to split up into segments what was happening as the piston moves up, the fuel mixture is ignited, the piston moves up some more with the flame doing it's thing before the piston starts back down reaching peak pressure about 20 degrees after TDC, i should imagine although the flame does not move fast compared with detonation, it still does not take long considering the short distance it has to travel, if someone with a better grasp of maths than me would like to post the time it would take for the flame to travel around the bowl i'd be grateful, i would imagine that given that the flame speed stays pretty constant, and the flame is lit earlier to compensate for a faster moving piston that the grooves would be less and less effective as rpm's increase, i know i have not skimmed the head to make use of the grooves properly by raising the c/r to make the engine more efficient, i have noticed big improvements with low rpm power and smoothness, i know i bang on about low rpm improvement but it's the only area i can actually prove that any improvement has taken place, it's to easy to sit there and say yep my buttometer says it's loads more powerful, i'm not here selling anything, i'm just passing on what i find, if i was keeping my car n/a then too right my head would be at the shop getting skimmed, as it happens if the turbo fit goes to plan, and i know that with a carb there's a limit to how much pressure the seals will take, my next plan will be to progressively skim the head until detonation is reached and so increase horsepower/torque that way, but that's for another day, oh well nearly 2am my painkillers are kicking in so i'm off to bed, les.
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Old 05-16-2006, 10:35 PM   #134
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Les, First I would like to repeat what I said earlier in the thread. “I think your groove placement has merit” I agree with your groove placement and the theory behind it. The additional groove pointing to the chamber side of the intake valve is in a position to promote flame travel into that area of the squish region.


I believe deciding groove placement entirely on promoting flame travel into the squish region is missing the most important point. Discussing squish and groove placement without first taking a look at turbulence intensity is unjust. The main function of squish is to increase the turbulent intensity in the combustion chamber. In addition the main objective of the grooves are to increase the turbulent intensity in the combustion chamber. Without turbulence we would burn the mixture at the laminar burning rate which is ten to twenty times slower than the turbulent rate.

I believe the groves function of allowing flame travel into the squish area is secondary. Accelerating flame travel at low RPM is the key; this is accomplished with increased turbulent intensity.
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Old 05-16-2006, 11:02 PM   #135
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If you take a close look at the Volvo combustion chamber. There is a little divot on the side wall of the chamber right near Les's lower groove in the picture. Just to the left near the bottom groove in the picture above with the arrows. I've read here on the board that Volvo put that there to create turbulence in the chamber. So, you could say Volvo chambers already have a groove from the factory.

Thanks, I like what you're doing Les!
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Old 05-17-2006, 03:36 AM   #136
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First, Automotivebreath i agree and thanks for the support, for people out there taking an interest thank you it's nice to know someone's out there and thanks for the praise but i think you all know where i think the praise should be aimed.

A bit of clarification, my car only has 95 ron put in it, high octane fuel is a full 10 percent more expensive and being on a low fixed income i can not justify the decreased mileage i would get, i put 20 gb pounds worth of fuel in my car a week and i get 100-110 miles on 21 litres, that's pretty much made up of short ie sub 5 mile journeys there and 5 miles back so you can work out how economical the car is, i don't drive in an especially soft or hard way i go with the flow in traffic and quick when conditions suit, not crazy fast just pretty quick, i've tried to convert euro ron into an equivalent american octane rating and i get it between 87 and 89 is this correct thanks les.
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Old 05-17-2006, 05:05 PM   #137
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First off....

dlot:
That little divot there can't be working in the same way as a groove. If anything, that divot will create surface level turbulence to promote better boundray layer adhesion. The importance of that stuff has been known for a long time.

The grooves on the other hand (and most importantly) promote propagation of the flame front out to areas that aren't normally reached.

Les / xwave / automotivebreath:

I too believe that there will most likely be a gain, but only on the compression side. However, that's the kind of thing that just may be hard to prove at this time.

However, there is something else that I noticed when considering the direction of flow that's illustrated in the pics. In particular, while those red arrows represent the intended direction of the flame front once combustion starts, flow will be moving in the opposite direction during the compression stroke! It is my suspicion that since the piston will still be heading north when spark occurs, the generated flow may negatively affect the direction of the devloping flame front.

A cheesey analogy would be a match (not sure what you guys call them there in Albion). As long as there is no breeze, the flame is for the most part going to go up. Now blow in it a little and see what happens?

I'm going to cut this short right here (I actually had more written), but once again, this is all just theoretical observation and hypothesis. Actual tests would reveal the merit of any idea.

On to better news. I got a nice shallow V shaped file day before yesterday. Woot!! I'm going to pull my test head out this evening and start screwin' around.

Cheers
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Old 05-17-2006, 06:19 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BDKR
…The grooves on the other hand (and most importantly) promote propagation of the flame front out to areas that aren't normally reached.…
I agree, in addition my testing has indicated that not only is the burn more complete, it also much faster. This indicates ignition timing advance can be reduced resulting in less pressure placed on the upward moving piston.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BDKR
…A cheesey analogy would be a match (not sure what you guys call them there in Albion). As long as there is no breeze, the flame is for the most part going to go up. Now blow in it a little and see what happens?…
Let’s take this one step further; instead of blowing spent air (1) at the match; sip an ounce of alcohol and blow a mix of fresh air (2) and fuel at the ignition source. Would the results be the same?

(1) the air we exhale is roughly 78% nitrogen, 16% oxygen, 4% carbon dioxide;
(2) the air we inhale is roughly 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen



Don’t try this at home: this should only be done by highly trained professionals.

http://www.divineimagination.com/gal...llery.php?p=57

Last edited by automotivebreath; 05-17-2006 at 06:28 PM..
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Old 05-17-2006, 06:38 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les, slight limp
I would imagine that given that the flame speed stays pretty constant, and the flame is lit earlier to compensate for a faster moving piston that the grooves would be less and less effective as rpm's increase
I agree. Would it then follow that the benefit of the gooves is then realized by retarding the timing so the spark can be as close to TDC as possible and max force is developed as close to 90* on the crank for best leverage?



Also, it seems to me that the maximum benefit from the grooves will be realized when air is being forced into/through them, i.e. the compression stroke. Although the grooves may have some effect during the power stroke, it seems that it will be much less than the effects during compression.

Just my .02


For more efficient burn at lower RPM, would you want the fuel/air jet from the groove to move AWAY form the plug? A longer, more thorough burn would seem to gain better leverage on the crankshaft (more torque?). Oh wait, that would also reduce the force on the piston due to lower pressure (from higher volume in combustion area). OK so maybe that's backwards. Nevermind my thinking out loud.

For higher RPM though you would want a quicker complete burn so the jet should go towards the plug.
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Old 05-17-2006, 06:50 PM   #140
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with the new head it pulls to below 25 mph in 5th, i know what somender means by no need for gears, i put the v cam in this morning and did a quick check on the timing and it's running 20 degrees, i couldn't reset it because it started hammering down with rain but it runs ok, a full job with having the head skimmed must be amazing i can't wait to get the turbo on now, there's an english midlands volvo meet on sunday so this weekends out but then i've got a month clear to start the turbo fit, all being well i should be enjoying boostly goodness in less than 4 weeks, oh and the cam gets a bit noisy over 2500 rpm so it'll need re-shimming, i've got to go to the ideal home and cookery show at the NEC in birmingham tomorrow so it'll be a nice little motorway run, although knowing my luck the motorway will be chock a block with traffic.

Sorry my friend came for a coffee as i was writing that.

Yes that's how i think of the flame leaving the plug as a sort of flamethrower jet instead of being a normal burn, thats why i wanted to guide some of that jet into or on to the squish area to burn the fuel in that area to prevent detonation, your probably right about the burn being faster although that's where i get out of my depth.

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Old 05-17-2006, 07:01 PM   #141
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Never mind

Last edited by automotivebreath; 05-18-2006 at 01:10 PM.. Reason: Dazed and confused
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Old 05-17-2006, 07:15 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les, slight limp
...Yes that's how i think of the flame leaving the plug as a sort of flamethrower jet instead of being a normal burn, thats why i wanted to guide some of that jet into or on to the squish area to burn the fuel in that area to prevent detonation, your probably right about the burn being faster although that's where i get out of my depth.
I'm thinking of the flame traveling towards the squished stream of air/fuel mix. Look the the fire blower, the ignition source is 18" away from his lips. Yet the flame travels opposite the direction of the fluid flow, towards the fire blower.
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Old 05-17-2006, 07:21 PM   #143
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At the end of the day no-one knows exactly what is happening, i do know that the grooves work, i've got my own theories as to why but because thats all they are i'll probably never know for certain why, what we need now are people willing to experiment and find out what works and what does not, i don't think for a second that at my second attempt i've got the best groove placement on volvo heads, yes the second head performs better than the first, but i took all the information that i could find and did a basic see if it works job, so if the second head hadn't worked better it would have just meant my theories were wrong, they might still be wrong and the head works better despite my off the plug groove, i won't know until i pull the head again to have a look at the burn patterns, that reminds me, pic's of the other head, anyone that wants a copy just pm your email, if someone could put them on i'd be grateful.

I would imagine our jet is travelling faster than a fire blower can manage.
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Old 05-17-2006, 07:33 PM   #144
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Cancel the last comment, as the stream got weaker the flame could indeed travel up it.
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Old 05-17-2006, 09:13 PM   #145
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Old 05-17-2006, 09:50 PM   #146
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Old 05-18-2006, 04:31 AM   #147
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The reason the combustion chambers look so grotty, i forgot to take the bottom hose of which soaked the chambers when i loosened the head bolts, and then put the head chambers down on a sheet of ply which wasn't quite level so the oil drained out of the cam area down and pooled underneath, so when the head was turned over oil was soaking everything and of course it ran into the chambers, sorry about that, next time i'll take pic's first.
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Old 05-18-2006, 04:45 AM   #148
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You just gotta love exhaust ports that are cleaner than the outside of your head!
hmm, I gotta change a head on my Chevy pretty soon...
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Old 05-18-2006, 12:34 PM   #149
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Bling has never been my strong point, take a look at the cam bearing on the last pic, interior bling lol, i went on a bit of a run today so tried retarding the timing, i ran 5 degrees BTDC instead of 10, what a mistake, it was like driving a car with no grooves with added retarded ignition power loss, it's nice to find out that the grooves have a certain squish limit to work properly, i'll redo the timing to 12 and then 15 and 17 and try to distinguish the outcome as honestly as possible, i already know 10 is better than 20, it's a case of run 12 for 3 or 4 days so i can get used to it and then go back to 10 and judge which is best, if there's not enough difference to tell then i'll try 15 then go back to 10, i have a feeling 12-15 is going to be best but time will tell.

Your better of talking to automotive about your chevy, i think he's already done 1 or 2.
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Old 05-18-2006, 06:47 PM   #150
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The efforts of head changing and a long day out today have left me totally knackered, it was bound to catch up with me eventually, i'll be having a few days of enforced rest, my wife puts her foot down about my health now and then, somebody has to protect me from myself lol, that last bit sounds much better said than it does written, thanks to everyone for your interest and keep the ideas coming, i'm sure a mk3 and a mk4 will be in the pipeline when we've thrown some more ideas around, if anyone in the uk midlands wants to have a nose at the mk1 i'll be at a volvo meet on sunday, Pm for details, les.
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