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Old 10-08-2010, 11:02 PM   #26
745 TurboGreasel
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No thermostat;
Unless you are drag only, you are bound for failure, and in drag you will only be adding another variable to the equation.
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Old 10-08-2010, 11:03 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by 740tankDriver View Post
someone answer the thermostat question.
By 'racers' i can only assume he means those running sub 8sec 1/4mile? if so, then i would say no. considering they are block filled and are pretty much only run for a minute at a time. My 2c
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Old 10-09-2010, 12:19 AM   #28
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So as a fellow TB'er that has blown his freeze plugs twice....im going to ramble a bit.

3 stages to this problem.

1....bought 91 940 with 17x,xxx miles. stock balancer and stock "small" wp pulley. 15g turbo, IPD cam, AW71, blah, blah, blah. Mikes chips with 7200 revlimit. Car was fun, made 206whp and could rev wot throttle with noproblems. Safe to mention here that the tall gears of the aw71 limits how quickly the stock setup will rev imho. Also, found out later that the water pump had been replaced with an IPD unit that has the 6 stamped steel impeller blades like a chevy pump.

2...start the build of the 16v monster. I had a dales pulley, but wanted to keep the stock harmonic balancer as the dales pulley is just an alum pulley. I end up (by accident) with the larger early model wp pulley from the yard, have the block at the machine shop where they install some Dorman freeze plugs.
Get the whole thing together and about 50 miles on the motor, Im headed to lunch...motor is at 140* with 13lb radiator cap. (at this point during the build I had done a large 2 core alum radiator with standard american cap). I was having the to small of turbo syndrome and could not control boost....the motor would rev RFN and spike to 21psi (I also installed a gm 5 speed). At the 50 mile mark I blew 3 freeze plugs out of the block.
Start the fixing and wondering WTF!
I was able to put some retaining plates over the exhaust side, but since the intake side has the pcv box, I could only plate the forward 2. Drive car for a while and all is better. Didnt really do anything to fix the issue.

3...install better clutch and get a 57trim on there. To this point there have been no problems....now remember Im still tuning and keep the boost low at wg pressure for a while and slowly turn it up to 18psi, but all my runs are made in 3rd gear so the motor is loaded and does not rev out fast from a 20mph takeoff.....which gets us to the Dyno.
I was having boost control issues and could not build anymore than 15psi.....car gets taken off Dyno to do some street time.....get the boost issue solved and end up running the car with no lines to the WG.......pretty much revs out in first RFN, even more RFN than before and spikes to 30psi....wow! Got that fixed and was hitting 25psi on setting the Truboost was on......I make 2 more launches and blow them freeze plugs out that I could not plate on.

Go home and fix the problem...redo the pcv box and plate the final plugs in. Each time Im using loctite #1 for sealant and actually switched to a brass plug the second time around.

Now my remedies that have worked so far...plenty of pulls with no issues.

Kept the stock Harmonic Balancer......made a larger wp pulley. went from 5.375 to a 6.125. Its driven 1-1 now. Got rid of the heater conrol valve that the 9xx cars have thats pre-heater core. Now it flows like an old chevy does. And I install a 3/8 bypass from mid head to the forward side of the thermostat housing.

I should state now that when the motor was rebuilt i bought a Hepu pump that is a brass cast unit with built in cav plate, unlike the jap replacement which had bent impellers.

My findings to this point.

Car has trouble cooling at an idle now, so installed a larger electric fan on the radiator, and since the install is not "ideal", meaning the rad is not completly seal from the engine bay I was getting some hot air recircing to the front side with the hood down. So i installed fan infront the IC to feed the radiator with cool air. WORKS awsome. Tho i never had a problem cooling while driving, and none of my logs show any major coolant rises or splikes under any conditions.

If the 3/8 bypass is open, about takes forever for it to warm up.....................and if you open it up after its warm and drive at highway speeds, I got it to cool down to 160* before I closed it off again!

There is an electronic 3/8 solenoid in the bypass and is controlled by the ECU to open under 1psi of boost or more....so really any conditons that will cause the motor to rev to quickly, the loop is open.

Looking at a 16v head and an 8v head, the 16v already has all the passages opened up, and its just a minor flow restriction in the head gasket....while the 8v has small ports and some are not even present.

Im still leary of it happening, or at least pushing a hose or something, but nothing so far....very happy.

So its stock Harmonic, matching diameter wp pulley, valve gone on heater line to heater core, and a bypass (that could be activated by a nitrous switch or something) and my issues seem to be gone.
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Old 10-09-2010, 05:35 AM   #29
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Rember also the stock pump circulates water that bypasses the radiator, even when the thermostat is open. The inlet is in front of the impeller and there is a lower pressure there, the outlet of the head is the hump on the front. This is part of the higher pressure area after the pump, water will be bypassed the radiator going straight back into the engine. This hole is about half an inch. It's a very simple and crude solution for fixing the problem when the thermostat is closed, so that the pump can circulate water even then.



http://www.daviescraig.com.au/Electr...P-content.aspx

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Old 10-09-2010, 08:14 AM   #30
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how about an electric thermostat.

aka an electrically actuated valve.

MS could control it, and when its open, you know its open.
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Old 10-09-2010, 08:42 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 745 TurboGreasel View Post
No thermostat;
Unless you are drag only, you are bound for failure, and in drag you will only be adding another variable to the equation.
I've never understood this. Unless you can load the engine in such a way as to obtain some perfect temperature equilibrium, there's no way to accurately control operating temp without a thermostat (all other things being equal). Thermostats almost never fail, and if you're so worried about it, then replace it every few races. Removing it is like fixing a problem that doesn't exist.
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Old 10-09-2010, 11:12 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by qwkswede View Post
I didn't see any pictures. Are these holes in the head? or in the block...

There is interesting stuff always happening on Savarturbo. I wish I could understand it better.


The 531 castings was modified with five new cooling canals, the so called "Group-A Canals". The three cooling holes on the farside of the cylinderhead was 4mm and the two ones the far side of the cylinderhead was 6mm. Note the red marked circles below on the pics.

http://www.240grupp-a.se/eng_site/motor.htm

On the same site they show a waterpump with some holes drilled and others welded up for better cooling.........

I know on production cars, part of the reason for the radiator bypass loop is to allow the engine to come up to temp faster. This greatly reduced startup emissions on non efi cars especially. I wonder if volvo eliminated/changed the bypass for racing, cause it works better at the expense of fuel economy at startup. The WP works fine in stock volvo's driven normally....might as well save the gas.
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Old 10-09-2010, 11:25 AM   #33
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I'm going to chime in a bit here.

1. In any motor we build we only use stock VOLVO freeze plugs. Early on I used dorman and other aftermarket stuff and they would seemingly push out. Started using volvo stuff and have yet to have one come out. All that to say we stock volvo factory freeze plugs now and its all we use.

2. The stamped steel waterpump has an odd number of fins on it, so merely cutting the fins makes it very difficult to achieve a balanced unit and we kept wearing out bearings.

3. If running a B21 or B23 by all means run the Dale or other underdrive pulley. If running a STOCK crank B230 I would be a little on the leary side. Volvo in high RPM testing of engines broke countless crankshafts when originally designing the B230. The design engineer in charge of the cranks as to retool for cranks with a larger radius on all of the rod and main journals as the radius was to small and lead to localized cracking at the number 1 journal. Instead of retooling they created a crankshaft damper to deal with the issue. I've spoken with the engineer and he says anything over 7500-7750 is at risk. Our billet cranks don't have this issue so feel free to run an Avalanche underdrive pulley.

4. DO NOT run without a thermostat. We support a few race cars at the track and in July the temps on the asphalt were around 110*. I showed up a little late and found that guys were gutting their thermostats....and the problem got worse. The coolant was moving through the radiator so fast it could not transfer the heat out of the system. Minor note, once I got him to install the Splash Pan..which helps keep airflow through the radiator as opposed to creating a dead zone behind it the cooling issues went away.

5. It is my personal belief that when these pumps spin up super high they create cavitation and the cavitation creates micro bubbles, when the shockload of head comes it is my belief that those micro air bubbles begin to expand exponentially and the system pressure rises quickly.

6. Internet lore for years has suggested that the cast impellor pumps cavitate less than their stamped counterparts. As such we have only used cast pumps for 6 years now..

7. For cars that our reving to the far reaches of the universe I think an electronic water pump is the best option. But I'm not convinced its the best thing or a street car.
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Old 10-09-2010, 12:09 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereophile33 View Post
only use stock VOLVO freeze plugs.
While I have no qualifications to comment on the main premise of this thread, I am totally behind the above comment. Aftermarket freeze plugs are chit, and if you looked at one next to a Volvo one the difference would be clear.
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Old 10-09-2010, 12:09 PM   #35
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I never had a freeze plug pop out ever with dales underdrive crank pulley and the bigger 93+ water pump pulley and I rapped it up to 7.5k and beyond on LH every day. The temp would go up 10 degrees at idle but would then go down once moving. This was with everything stock coolant and radiator wise with regular fan.

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Old 10-09-2010, 12:10 PM   #36
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Uuuuuummmm...
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Old 10-09-2010, 01:18 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qwkswede View Post
I didn't see any pictures. Are these holes in the head? or in the block...
2 small holes drilled at the back of the head....#4 cyl:
http://www.pbase.com/towerymt/image/103864404.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/towerymt/image/103864400.jpg
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Old 10-09-2010, 01:30 PM   #38
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Of course the thermostat should never be removed with the stock pump, only with an temperature controlled electric pump. When the coolant temperature is not up to working level, the pump will not circulate it and the heat will build up quickly leaving the thermostat obsolete. The stock cooling system was never designed to spend much time at the rev limiter and definitely on a raised limiter or on a "race car", so if you are driving very vigorously and are often on the track you should definitely consider an electric pump leaving you with a more balanced cooling system and extra power.
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Old 10-09-2010, 01:33 PM   #39
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why? why not add a rear radiator connected to where the lines for the heater core would have it's feed lines? one could route it under the cowl. along with upping the thermostat temperature.
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Old 10-09-2010, 01:49 PM   #40
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We'll at upper higher RPM's the problem isn't enough rad he ate her, it's the water cavitation from the water moving to fast from the motor spinning real fast. I might be explaining this a little to fast also. Also I did also run a mini little radiator in that spot, actually it was a heater core from a ford van....
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Old 10-09-2010, 02:36 PM   #41
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someone save this thread as a sticky?
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Old 10-09-2010, 04:49 PM   #42
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Hey, ever hear of block squirm?
Youse running some crazy sheeet, mang, the Volvo block ain't as stiff as we'd like to imagine and it ain't as rigid as the two Fords I'm used to...
But even those fawkin Fords squirm at higher outputs and here's a common cure I've seen to 25 years:


See the washers overhanging the freeze plugs?

Probably easier to drill and tap some little holes than all the other genius stuff folks here are suggesting.
The a little allen screw and the right size washer and I'll betcha a nickle the freeze plugs won't walk out...
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Old 10-09-2010, 05:02 PM   #43
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That bolt+washer thing is really ****ing clever. John, du är inte alltid så dum som du luktar.
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Old 10-09-2010, 05:05 PM   #44
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i would agree john.......i ended up putting plates over the hole shibang for easness. i like the ideaa of one plate or the small washer bit but trying to do that in the car blows......so i chose the full plate method. i should post pics of it when i get home....there in my build thread.
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Old 10-09-2010, 07:31 PM   #45
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I agree John thats pretty cleaver its alot like our aluminum freeze plug covers we have lasercut...but that just seems even easier.

great suggestion
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Old 10-09-2010, 10:00 PM   #46
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I kinda like using Evans coolant. No water, so, no possibility to create small bubbles and create hot spots in the head. Plus, NO pressure in the cooling system, so, no real way to push out the freeze plugs. Just my 2cents. Been running Evans NPG-R for 5 years now. No issues ever that would be related to the coolant, only failures in other parts.

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Old 10-10-2010, 12:28 PM   #47
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my cover plates.



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Old 10-10-2010, 12:42 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 740atl View Post
someone save this thread as a sticky?
Can do.
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Old 10-10-2010, 01:01 PM   #49
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Re attaching the freeze plugs:

I have cleaned the block really well around the freeze plug area. Then i've used new freeze plugs and removed the zinc plating around the perimeter. After driving them in i've brazed them with silver to the block. This works worlds better than welding cast iron.

The result is neat and tidy, and the plugs will not come out on their own.
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Old 10-10-2010, 01:15 PM   #50
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This is quite an interesting thread. Glad I stumbled upon it.
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