home register FAQ memberlist calendar

Go Back   Turbobricks Forums > Mechanical > performance & modifications

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-22-2017, 10:26 AM   #1
VeroDubs
The Big Swede
 
VeroDubs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Vero Beach, FL
Default T5 Clutch or Trans Issue?

So as of late, I have been having some weird disengagement issues going on with my T5. Let me see if I can describe them well.

These issues usually happen after hard or long drives when the trans is hot.

-With the clutch depressed, on deceleration to a stop, with the car in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd gear; It feels as though there is enough of the clutch dragging to cause the back wheels to shutter like the clutch is engaged. This all is gone once the car comes to a stop.

-On deceleration, trying to downshift to 1st, 2nd, or 3rd, I will sometimes get grinds. These are intermittent and usually when I don't rev match perfectly. Sometime it does not need rev matched at all and down shifts fine.

-Randomly on up shifts I will get a grind. There is no rhyme or reason to this. Almost like I didn't compress the clutch enough, though it is fully depressed.

Thoughts and possible other useful info-


Flywheel: STS Machine LH2.4 60-2 Flat Flywheel
Clutch Disk: Southbend Ceramic 225mm T5 Splined Disk
Pressure Plate: SAAB Viggen 228mm PP
DeeWorks/Avalanche Kit
Ford TOB

I have adjust the cable both ways and driven it, does the same whether it is loose or tight or adjusted perfectly. Right now I have it a little over tight and there is no way it's not disengaging as much as possible.

I set the endplay in the trans when I did the swap. Is it possible to be set wrong (Too Tight) and would it cause issues like this?

I had to space my pressure plate with 1 machine washer on each pressure plate bolt in order to have the pressure plate release arms at the right height.

Any other info needed, just ask. I am looking for some insight on this.
__________________
My '89 Brick -"The Big Swede"
VeroDubs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2017, 11:53 AM   #2
GTJordan
Been here for too long
 
GTJordan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Edmonton AB
Default

Did you lubricate the splines on the transmission at all? Disk sticking to the splines? Was the input shaft worn in a pot that could be causing it to catch?
__________________
80 242- 2.5L, T5, Porsche brakes, short billies and kaplenkhe suspension, trutrack.
Project Thread- http://www.turbobricks.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=324470
GTJordan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2017, 12:17 PM   #3
VeroDubs
The Big Swede
 
VeroDubs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Vero Beach, FL
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTJordan View Post
Did you lubricate the splines on the transmission at all? Disk sticking to the splines? Was the input shaft worn in a pot that could be causing it to catch?
I know we lubed the splines the first time, but I pulled the trans 2 or 3 times after that and can't remember if I did it again or not.

The T5 was fully rebuild and the input shaft was fine.
VeroDubs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2017, 03:06 PM   #4
Dan Stokes
Board Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Wilmington, NC
Default

Here's what I noticed on the one I'm doing the swap on:

The cable looked sort of OK but I decided to swap to a new one. When I had it out it was clear that it had been too close to the exhaust for too long (we're running shorty headers). When I reassembled the system I paid special attention to the cable routing and ended up wrapping the exhaust in DEI insulation - that's the ceramic tape that us hot rod folks use for this sort of thing. If you go to BangShift you can find my build thread and it'll show what I did. Directions to the thread in the thread I posted yesterday on here.

If I had to guess your cable has gotten toasty and the inner cable guide (sort of a Teflon sort of stuff) has melted to some degree and is preventing the cable from sliding smoothly inside the guide. Worth a look.

Dan
Dan Stokes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2017, 09:14 AM   #5
oldschoolvolvo
Board Member
 
oldschoolvolvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Lancaster, PA
Default

Curious if you got this sorted out...
__________________
-Mike
1998 V70 T5
1979 242 DL+T |Project Thread| |Feedback|
oldschoolvolvo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2017, 09:44 AM   #6
VeroDubs
The Big Swede
 
VeroDubs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Vero Beach, FL
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Stokes View Post
Here's what I noticed on the one I'm doing the swap on:

The cable looked sort of OK but I decided to swap to a new one. When I had it out it was clear that it had been too close to the exhaust for too long (we're running shorty headers). When I reassembled the system I paid special attention to the cable routing and ended up wrapping the exhaust in DEI insulation - that's the ceramic tape that us hot rod folks use for this sort of thing. If you go to BangShift you can find my build thread and it'll show what I did. Directions to the thread in the thread I posted yesterday on here.

If I had to guess your cable has gotten toasty and the inner cable guide (sort of a Teflon sort of stuff) has melted to some degree and is preventing the cable from sliding smoothly inside the guide. Worth a look.

Dan
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolvolvo View Post
Curious if you got this sorted out...
I have not. I have been driving it daily and it's strange; some days I will not experience the dragging of the clutch at all. This morning though, it is wet and rainy out and pulling into a parking lot, I put it in first with the clutch completely disengaged and the the clutch chattered something fierce till I was down to about 3 mph, then it smoothed out and went away.

I have sitting on my bench at home a new clutch cable and STS clutch cable bushing to be installed this weekend.
VeroDubs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2017, 09:50 AM   #7
Simi
:3
 
Simi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Orlando, FL
Default

Could be that the t5 is not disengaging all the way, depending on how heavy the clutch is, check for firewall flex, or have someone depress the clutch to see if the fork has the full amount of movement
Simi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2017, 01:50 PM   #8
culberro
Ronald Culberbone III
 
culberro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Default

The Saab flywheel has a 1-2mm step, and the Ford disk is about 1mm thicker than the Saab disk. How thick is the spacer under the PP?
Diaphragm springs have less force when they get bent past a certain point. You may not have enough clamp load to prevent shudder.

Also, the ceramic disk will not like being "slipped" while down shifting or taking off. They are more on-off. If you slip them a lot, they "grab" and shudder.
culberro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2017, 01:58 PM   #9
John V, outside agitator
Board Member
 
John V, outside agitator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sleezattle, WA, USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by culberro View Post
The Saab flywheel has a 1-2mm step, and the aftermarket USA made Ford disk is about 1mm thicker than the Saab disk. How thick is the spacer under the PP?
Diaphragm springs have less force when they get bent past a certain point. You may not have enough clamp load to prevent shudder.

Also, the ceramic disk will not like being "slipped" while down shifting or taking off. They are more on-off. If you slip them a lot, they "grab" and shudder.
da fuq?

I haint never seen no stinkin 1 OR 2 mm step on any real Saab 99 or 900 flywheel..How could the 900 T16v PP be direct interchange with the Volvo 215 B21T PP if there was a step?
Dems plat as a pankaka.
__________________
John Vanlandingham/JVAB Imports
Sleezattle WA, USA

--> CALL (206) 431-9696<----

www.rallyrace.net/jvab

www.rallyanarchy.com

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

"When a man tells you that he got rich through hard work, ask him: 'Whose?'"
— Don Marquis
John V, outside agitator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2017, 02:00 PM   #10
gsellstr
Vintage anti-ricer
 
gsellstr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Somewhere in a northern California smog bank
Default

This far and not a single mention of the pilot bearing being bound up? Come on guys...
__________________
RIP
Doug Williams aka Mr. Doug 4/15/2009
Pete Fluitman aka fivehundred 7/14/2013
Mick Starkey aka TrickMick 1/10/14

74 144 B20
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=224983

90 745Ti
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=334698

If you need Superpro bushings PM me for price and availability!
gsellstr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2017, 02:09 PM   #11
culberro
Ronald Culberbone III
 
culberro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
da fuq?

I haint never seen no stinkin 1 OR 2 mm step on any real Saab 99 or 900 flywheel..How could the 900 T16v PP be direct interchange with the Volvo 215 B21T PP if there was a step?
Dems plat as a pankaka.
Dufaq!? I don't know mang!!! From the pictures of new and used FW for a 2000 9-3 turbo, they all have a step?!
I'm trying to get the exact number from a Saab shop, but no one wants to play nice.

Looks a lot like a step to me... https://www.eeuroparts.com/Parts/286...-Mass-9179136/

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FLYWHEEL-FLE...3D152331636746
culberro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2017, 02:15 PM   #12
culberro
Ronald Culberbone III
 
culberro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsellstr View Post
This far and not a single mention of the pilot bearing being bound up? Come on guys...
That'll definitely do it.
culberro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2017, 02:53 PM   #13
B20Paul
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsellstr View Post
This far and not a single mention of the pilot bearing being bound up? Come on guys...
Good point.

What about the opposite? What do you use for a pilot bearing in a T5 conversion?
B20Paul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2017, 03:01 PM   #14
gsellstr
Vintage anti-ricer
 
gsellstr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Somewhere in a northern California smog bank
Default

I used the standard Mustang pilot, been running fine so far.
gsellstr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2017, 03:31 PM   #15
VeroDubs
The Big Swede
 
VeroDubs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Vero Beach, FL
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsellstr View Post
This far and not a single mention of the pilot bearing being bound up? Come on guys...
Quote:
Originally Posted by culberro View Post
That'll definitely do it.
Wouldn't I get some kind of noise or vibration from a seized pilot bearing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsellstr View Post
I used the standard Mustang pilot, been running fine so far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by B20Paul View Post
Good point.

What about the opposite? What do you use for a pilot bearing in a T5 conversion?
I too am running the Avalanche Kit which utilizes the Ford T5 Pilot Bearing

Quote:
Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
da fuq?

I haint never seen no stinkin 1 OR 2 mm step on any real Saab 99 or 900 flywheel..How could the 900 T16v PP be direct interchange with the Volvo 215 B21T PP if there was a step?
Dems plat as a pankaka.
Quote:
Originally Posted by culberro View Post
Dufaq!? I don't know mang!!! From the pictures of new and used FW for a 2000 9-3 turbo, they all have a step?!
I'm trying to get the exact number from a Saab shop, but no one wants to play nice.

Looks a lot like a step to me...
Quote:
Originally Posted by culberro View Post
The Saab flywheel has a 1-2mm step, and the Ford disk is about 1mm thicker than the Saab disk. How thick is the spacer under the PP?
Diaphragm springs have less force when they get bent past a certain point. You may not have enough clamp load to prevent shudder.

Also, the ceramic disk will not like being "slipped" while down shifting or taking off. They are more on-off. If you slip them a lot, they "grab" and shudder.
I don't slip the clutch much at all. My engagement is pretty much on and off. As for my setup, I am not running a SAAB FW, it is an STS Machining Flat Flywheel. It is combing with a SouthBend Ford Splined Disk and a SAAB Viggen PP.

My PP is spaced with 1 washer to account for the extra thickness on the clutch disk so that the release arms sit flat with the PP face.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Simi View Post
Could be that the t5 is not disengaging all the way, depending on how heavy the clutch is, check for firewall flex, or have someone depress the clutch to see if the fork has the full amount of movement
I will check for flex tonight. And as for the fork at the bell housing, I actually clearanced the bell housing to make sure the arm was not making contact and had room for full travel.
VeroDubs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2017, 06:56 PM   #16
gsellstr
Vintage anti-ricer
 
gsellstr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Somewhere in a northern California smog bank
Default

Usually you might have a little noise with the clutch in at idle, but I have seem them with nearly seized bearings and minimal discernible noise.

Put the car on stands, climb under, have a buddy press down on the clutch with the trans in 4th, see if you can easily spin the driveshaft. You should be able to see the outer edge of the disc as well, if you look thru by the shift fork, see if the plate is fully disengaging.
gsellstr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2017, 07:04 PM   #17
VeroDubs
The Big Swede
 
VeroDubs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Vero Beach, FL
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsellstr View Post
Usually you might have a little noise with the clutch in at idle, but I have seem them with nearly seized bearings and minimal discernible noise.

Put the car on stands, climb under, have a buddy press down on the clutch with the trans in 4th, see if you can easily spin the driveshaft. You should be able to see the outer edge of the disc as well, if you look thru by the shift fork, see if the plate is fully disengaging.
Good idea. I am probably going to wind up staying at the shop and pulling everything apart one night this week. Doesn't take that long to take the T5 out haha
VeroDubs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2017, 03:04 AM   #18
culberro
Ronald Culberbone III
 
culberro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator View Post
da fuq?

I haint never seen no stinkin 1 OR 2 mm step on any real Saab 99 or 900 flywheel..How could the 900 T16v PP be direct interchange with the Volvo 215 B21T PP if there was a step?
Dems plat as a pankaka.
According to Mr.Medcroft, the flywheel step on a Saab 9-3 turbo is .073in.
The 215/228 PP is from a Saab 9-3 Viggen, not a 900.
I'll have some time to shim the PP tomorrow with an assortment of washers.
culberro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2017, 07:42 AM   #19
freevolvos
Board Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: hillpoint
Default

Dial indicate the bellhousing to the crankshaft centerline and see is if it is centered if it's not it can cause all kinds of strange problems
freevolvos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2017, 04:07 PM   #20
culberro
Ronald Culberbone III
 
culberro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Default

As I can't seem to find the Saab PP and T5 thread, here's some info on the stock saab flywheel step height and clutch disk thickness.

Quote:
Flywheel 9179136 has a raised outside shoulder where the pressure plate mounts, it is raised 1.55mm

The Sachs equivalent of 5174966 (1878005624) is 7.66mm thick compressed
Just measure whatever t5 disk you have for thickness (compressed), and then add the difference from the stock disk (7.66mm) and then add the flywheel step height of 1.55mm. Viola, instant spacer thickness needed.
culberro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2017, 01:25 PM   #21
VeroDubs
The Big Swede
 
VeroDubs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Vero Beach, FL
Default

UPDATE ON THIS ISSUE:

I got the cable out and inspected it. I did not see anything that looked off or broken, but I replaced it anyway. When I did I noted the new one is a lot tighter when reconnecting the clutch arm.

I also bought STS Machining delrin bushing to replace the rubber one on the cable.

I have been driving a while now with it and have not had the dragging issues. Everything seems to have returned to normal.

So hats off to Dan Stokes... good call

VeroDubs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2017, 01:37 PM   #22
Harlard
Pro Sneaker Peddler
 
Harlard's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: PDX
Default

Be very leery. The new plastic sheathing cables like to stretch.
__________________


Herr Harlard am Erstens

1979 242 DL

Quote:
Originally Posted by t8fanning View Post
My knob has a big chunk of steel on it
Harlard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2017, 02:28 PM   #23
VeroDubs
The Big Swede
 
VeroDubs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Vero Beach, FL
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harlard View Post
Be very leery. The new plastic sheathing cables like to stretch.
I will keep an eye on it and try and source a new OEM cable.
VeroDubs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2017, 05:41 PM   #24
Stiggy Pop
Board Member
 
Stiggy Pop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Granville, MA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeroDubs View Post
I will keep an eye on it and try and source a new OEM cable.
they're NLA. I have two of the good metal sheathed versions if you want to buy a used one.
__________________
'79 242
943 pickup
Stiggy Pop is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2017, 12:31 PM   #25
VeroDubs
The Big Swede
 
VeroDubs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Vero Beach, FL
Default

Well, that's what I get for updating the thread. Got into a little spirited around town driving last night and then pulled into a parking lot coasting in 2nd and could feel the clutch dragging bad. It seams to only happen when I get the clutch hot.
VeroDubs is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:51 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.