I'm not doing it for "feel". the pump was a leaky mess and looping the lines was a cheap fix and it hasn't bothered me enough to find and install another pump.
You'll need a new drive shaft no matter what m45/m46/m47 you want to put in
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Cheap, mild N/A B230F build for racing?
- Thread starter rwb
- Start date
I'm not doing it for "feel". the pump was a leaky mess and looping the lines was a cheap fix and it hasn't bothered me enough to find and install another pump.
In that case, probably out of scope for now unfortunately. It seemed liked I could keep the revs high in 2nd without too much trouble so I'll deal.
So, let's say I take off the head to put in a cam, thinner gasket, deck it, whatever; am I likely to ruin other gaskets along the way, such that I should get a full set if I'm going to touch it at all?
Tuff240, what sanctioning body/class was that 240 run in? I see what look like Hoosiers catching air on that curb, combined with an N/A 8v 2.3 I have to guess you were similarly restricted from slapping on a turbo.
I might be deluded (I would never deny it,) but after Googling parts for this car for the past several days, if I can avoid smashing it up too badly I have a wild hair to maybe turn it into a Chumpcar or even just a nasty b*tch of a street car once it's done on ice. 16v +T that explodes every week? Is that going to be my life?
So, let's say I take off the head to put in a cam, thinner gasket, deck it, whatever; am I likely to ruin other gaskets along the way, such that I should get a full set if I'm going to touch it at all?
Tuff240, what sanctioning body/class was that 240 run in? I see what look like Hoosiers catching air on that curb, combined with an N/A 8v 2.3 I have to guess you were similarly restricted from slapping on a turbo.
I might be deluded (I would never deny it,) but after Googling parts for this car for the past several days, if I can avoid smashing it up too badly I have a wild hair to maybe turn it into a Chumpcar or even just a nasty b*tch of a street car once it's done on ice. 16v +T that explodes every week? Is that going to be my life?
ghettobrick
New member
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2003
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
I've ice raced B230F powered 240's for a little over 10 years now and depending on the class/track/tires/competition the stock motor may just be enough for you. One was manual and the other was auto, and for the track we ran they both worked well. A couple friends raced 740's as well and they were very similar in performance on the track. Driveability and reliability are the two key factors for a successful race car on ice. Tires used were either tractionized "rubber to ice" tires or "street studs", which were both regular street tires. There was a few classes over the years for more aggressive studded tires, but I never ran those.
Of all the stuff I tried over the years I will list a few things that did actually work well, and should to apply to any front engine/ rear drive car.
Ballast - Generally about 10% of the vehicle weight over the rear axle.
Swaybars - Remove for maximum articulation
Differential - Open diff. This may seem hard to believe, but under most conditions it worked the best. Welded had an advantage under certain conditions (high traction), but for the most part ice is slippery. G80 is an unpredictable pile of garbage. Clutch types depending on the preload essentially acted as welded.
Power steering - Races were short (max 15 minutes), speeds were high enough, and the track was slippery enough to not need it.
ABS - It worked surprisingly well for the one season I tried it. If the car has it I would keep it if it works.
Exhaust - 2.5 seemed to work well, but was probably more noise than power. The important thing is to make sure it's tucked up tight to the body.
Skid plate - Something strong with good coverage for the engine bay. Hammering 50lbs of half frozen ice and snow out from your steering rack and rad after stuffing it is not fun.
I'm sure there's other stuff I'm forgetting right now. Tires/class will have the biggest effect on how the car is set up, and how much power you will need. Again, reliability is key. Dragging your car around the pits in the morning because it won't start is a bad way to start the day. Having patience, and not getting frustrated the first time out is hard.
Get the car prepped, take it out, and go from there. Racing on ice is fun, and after a bit of seat time you will be hooked. If you are broke, there is no cheaper way to do wheel to wheel racing than in an old RWD Volvo.
Of all the stuff I tried over the years I will list a few things that did actually work well, and should to apply to any front engine/ rear drive car.
Ballast - Generally about 10% of the vehicle weight over the rear axle.
Swaybars - Remove for maximum articulation
Differential - Open diff. This may seem hard to believe, but under most conditions it worked the best. Welded had an advantage under certain conditions (high traction), but for the most part ice is slippery. G80 is an unpredictable pile of garbage. Clutch types depending on the preload essentially acted as welded.
Power steering - Races were short (max 15 minutes), speeds were high enough, and the track was slippery enough to not need it.
ABS - It worked surprisingly well for the one season I tried it. If the car has it I would keep it if it works.
Exhaust - 2.5 seemed to work well, but was probably more noise than power. The important thing is to make sure it's tucked up tight to the body.
Skid plate - Something strong with good coverage for the engine bay. Hammering 50lbs of half frozen ice and snow out from your steering rack and rad after stuffing it is not fun.
I'm sure there's other stuff I'm forgetting right now. Tires/class will have the biggest effect on how the car is set up, and how much power you will need. Again, reliability is key. Dragging your car around the pits in the morning because it won't start is a bad way to start the day. Having patience, and not getting frustrated the first time out is hard.
Get the car prepped, take it out, and go from there. Racing on ice is fun, and after a bit of seat time you will be hooked. If you are broke, there is no cheaper way to do wheel to wheel racing than in an old RWD Volvo.
More good input. Definitely planning on a skid plate, have some sheet metal ready. Most of the rest of what you said intuitively rings true as well.
Kinda surprised to hear about the open diff, but I suspect the rules of the series I'm building for are somewhat unique. Last winter I was able to test out a Honda built to the same 4cyl class rules I'm following, and with V-bars on the front tires and timing chains on the rear, was very surprised by the available traction. It was underpowered though, and that's my biggest phobia. Not to put too fine a point on it, but there was also a prepped up 740 wagon there, and it... was off the pace, despite being driven well, so that's basically why I'm so scared.
My only experience with the car I'm working with now is a few quick rips down a dirt road and a visual inspection, but my snap judgement was that there would be plenty of headroom before I'm fishtailing out of control on the ice. That said, I do plan to try it again once it's stripped and see how it feels.
Kinda surprised to hear about the open diff, but I suspect the rules of the series I'm building for are somewhat unique. Last winter I was able to test out a Honda built to the same 4cyl class rules I'm following, and with V-bars on the front tires and timing chains on the rear, was very surprised by the available traction. It was underpowered though, and that's my biggest phobia. Not to put too fine a point on it, but there was also a prepped up 740 wagon there, and it... was off the pace, despite being driven well, so that's basically why I'm so scared.
My only experience with the car I'm working with now is a few quick rips down a dirt road and a visual inspection, but my snap judgement was that there would be plenty of headroom before I'm fishtailing out of control on the ice. That said, I do plan to try it again once it's stripped and see how it feels.
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Tuff240
240 Ninja
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2002
- Location
- Central California
speedn_j
Banned
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2005
- Location
- bakersfield, ca
I like this idea. Aside from new pistons..pretyy much bolt in?
John V outside agitator
Active member
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2005
- Location
- Sleezattle, WA, USA
That combstion chamber design is nice nice nice with regards to not just flow..but also det resistance.. So if a guy was going to get some pistons, and wants a car to move, well what its the measure of how a car moves?
Torque..
Haitch Pea is just torques per minute..
16v head + custom pistons for comp in the 11.3 to 11.6 range ought to be fun.
Cause with 11.3-11.6 comp a guy can get some fun profiles that do something other than wheeeze like the ****ty B234 cams do..Anemically.
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speedn_j
Banned
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2005
- Location
- bakersfield, ca
I'm googling it right now. Looks a lil more involved than I was hoping. Changing the brake booster and master cylinder, different distributor..all seems like it would take a few dozen j/y trips to get 16v specific parts and probably over a grand of cash.
Time for the truth: I'm terrified to replace pistons, so I haven't even considered it. I haven't really done major engine work before, period. A cam on this motor, no problem, ain't scared, but taking apart the bottom end and dealing with rings and wrist pins and con rod bolts puts the fear of being unable to put it back together into my heart.
A 16v swap has been appealing from the start, but I think it's going to have to be a "maybe later" for now, and I don't expect to have an easy time finding a good one anyway. I may not be able to work on the car until after Labor Day, so between then and whenever the lake's frozen is how much time we'll have to get this ready to at least give the old college try. After that though, who knows!
A 16v swap has been appealing from the start, but I think it's going to have to be a "maybe later" for now, and I don't expect to have an easy time finding a good one anyway. I may not be able to work on the car until after Labor Day, so between then and whenever the lake's frozen is how much time we'll have to get this ready to at least give the old college try. After that though, who knows!
John V outside agitator
Active member
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2005
- Location
- Sleezattle, WA, USA
There is nothing in disassembly and assembly to be terrified about..
I have had in my shop a women who worked in insurqnce underwriting for 20 years assemble her engine..
And I had a 18 year old high school girl assember her engine..Both started on about the 3rd turn of the crank and ran for years..
Both were what I call "warmed up"...eg high 10s in comp and a nice fun Stage 1 rally cam..
Maybe later is fine..It is of course better to sit down and do stuff at one whack..you don't forget steps as easily.
(But for that I gave each of those 2 a pencil and said "Check off right there in the book each step"..and checked that they were doing it..
Think of this..in the late 80s at Saab the yearly turnover on the assembly line was nearly 80-85%
The daily absentee rate was about 27%.
It was not long-service veterans and highly motivated people putting these cars together.
If they could do it, you can do it..
The title of this is "mild N/A for (ice) racing.."
Not "tarted up limp dick street car"..
A race motor that you can safely beat on hard will cost some money..
Sounds like you'd want to do this in a 240...?
That price is pretty realistic ($1k). You can keep the stock booster and get the intake runners shortened 2in, clears everything just fine.
Skip the dizzy and run wasted spark using the Buchka board or microsquirt.
speedn_j
Banned
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2005
- Location
- bakersfield, ca
This was actually the first time I've heard of this swap. I'm by no means looking for a racecar or wanting to turbo. But keeping it n/a and adding 50hp seems legit. I just want more juice to fly up the grapevine and it'll need to be smogable. I'm keeping my eye out for parts
So, baby steps. Sorry for thread necro. It has a "racing" "wiring harness" now and will be caged soon. I've taken the bold step of buying a tune-up kit. The foundation is nearly laid for the fun to begin.
Stupid Question: I'm being told that if an air intake significantly less restrictive than the stock airbox is used, it may confuse the MAF and cause some undesirable condition. The plan at the moment is to enlarge the hole in the firewall that used to have heater core sticking out, run the intake into the passenger compartment, and run whatever decent pod filter. I'm not looking for power, just to keep it out of spray. Is any of that forewarning accurate, or will opening this up have no ill effect?
Stupid Question: I'm being told that if an air intake significantly less restrictive than the stock airbox is used, it may confuse the MAF and cause some undesirable condition. The plan at the moment is to enlarge the hole in the firewall that used to have heater core sticking out, run the intake into the passenger compartment, and run whatever decent pod filter. I'm not looking for power, just to keep it out of spray. Is any of that forewarning accurate, or will opening this up have no ill effect?
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I believe you on pod filters, don't really care for or about them, but in this case since it'll be where it is, stock airbox is out.
Was thinking for now I might try to re-use the stock plastic hose that goes to the MAF/airbox, flip it backwards and run that through the firewall, and I guess stick a 90 on the end of that because sticking a pod filter directly on the MAF is apparently a bad idea.
Will need to figure some way of preventing the firewall from rubbing through the hose, but besides that, any other good reasons this is not a good plan?
Was thinking for now I might try to re-use the stock plastic hose that goes to the MAF/airbox, flip it backwards and run that through the firewall, and I guess stick a 90 on the end of that because sticking a pod filter directly on the MAF is apparently a bad idea.
Will need to figure some way of preventing the firewall from rubbing through the hose, but besides that, any other good reasons this is not a good plan?
IAC is disconnected, don't really care about a stable idle. For the PCV system, I'm actually a little unclear on what I should do with that.
What's the worst that could happen if I eliminated the connection between the intake and the flame guard, and popped a little crankcase breather filter where the flame guard is now?
What's the worst that could happen if I eliminated the connection between the intake and the flame guard, and popped a little crankcase breather filter where the flame guard is now?
You want a little vacuum in the crankcase to vent the blowby fumes out, and it helps the rings and various seals to seal a little better, which in turn gives you a little more power. Some people just run it to atmosphere like you described, or to the exhaust but it's not hard to add a catch can or feed it straight into the intake like it is stock.