1979 242DL - Analog Motoring

[Harlard]

Good going. Hydro offers more benefits than just mechanical advantage, namely longevity and muchh better feel. Enjoy!

[Tuff240]

Originally Posted by Harlard

Good going. Hydro offers more benefits than just mechanical advantage, namely longevity and muchh better feel. Enjoy!

Better feel?

[Uncleknucklez]

This looks great man, my setup (practically identical) also engages/disengages at the last 1/4 pedal from the top. I'd like to get that a hair lower, but it's not worth tearing apart for the umpteenth time.

Nice work, and write up.

[oldschoolvolvo]

Thanks!

As an experiment I zip tied a small piece of wood (~1" square) to the back of the clutch pedal. The clutch now releases about 1/2 way through the stroke which feels better.

[oldschoolvolvo]

While the Kaplhenke adjustable torque rods have been working well to adjust my pinion angle, the rod ends do transmit axle vibrations and shift shocks into the cabin (this is just the nature of the setup, wouldn't expect otherwise). In an effort to tame things down bit, I considered purchasing a hybrid setup from Kaplhenke, but after some research I realized I could swap out the rod end on one half of the torque rod and replace it with a bushing.

With this combination, the cabin is a bit quieter and the shift shocks are dampened.

Here is what I used:

Rod end w/ bushing (Speedway Motors 91008001) - ebay
Poly bushings (Energy Suspension 9.9105) - Rock Auto
19mm OD x 12mm ID sleeve (49-0771) - MikesXS.com (shoutout to ryan350ci for the link)
3/4" washers for spacing the bushings - Home Depot

The replacement rod ends came with hard plastic bushings, but I swapped those out for the poly Energy Suspension units.



On a semi-related note, I have a noticeable vibration/rattle at 3k rpm when decelerating in 3rd and 4th gear (foot off the gas). I have tried different adjustments of the pinion angle, rotating the driveshaft 90* at the diff attachment and the above mentioned torque rod modification, but nothing seems to eliminate it. It also is only in a very narrow rpm band and isn't present on acceleration. I couldn't find any loose bolts or vibrating exhaust components. The weird part is that it wasn't there before I did the clutch swap and I'm a bit stumped as to what is causing it.

[Uncleknucklez]

These transmissions for sure have rattles in them. I had mine apart over the past month and am blown away by how loose everything is in there using approved specs and measurements.

Everything in the case on decel could be unloaded a touch and making a racket.

I also have all the parts in my Speedway motors cart to build the same type of torque rods you are, I just have to decide what length swedge tube as I plan to shorten the trailing arms real soon.

[oldschoolvolvo]

Here is a video of the deceleration rattle (ignore the high frequency buzz from the phone mic). Only occurs between 2500 and 3000 rpm and is quiet as soon as I give it some throttle.

From reading a few other threads it seems like it is "just the nature of the T5". I guess I can accept that but it bugs me that if that's the case, why didn't it rattle like that when I first installed it? Did a different PP and clutch disc combo change the resonant frequency??

[Harlard]

It shouldn't do that. Do you feel the rattle through the shifter?

[oldschoolvolvo]

Originally Posted by Harlard

It shouldn't do that. Do you feel the rattle through the shifter?

A little bit, the shifter vibrations don't change dramatically during that rpm band.

[oldschoolvolvo]

I'm thinking that the rattle may actually be my clutch fork. The rattle goes away when I lightly press on the clutch pedal during deceleration and when I was poking around underneath I realized that when the clutch fork is slightly unloaded it is free to rattle around. The slave cyl does provide preload, but maybe not enough to overcome vibrations during driving...idk.

However, I realized that there is a small plastic ball socket that is meant to go between the pivot ball and the clutch fork in the M90 (I'm using an M90 clutch fork). I may order one and try it out.

Does anyone know if the pivot ball changed diameters over the years? (seems silly that it would, but there are at least two different p/ns that I found)
#1 http://www.skandix.de/en/spare-parts...-fork/1019214/
#2 http://www.skandix.de/en/spare-parts...-fork/1017883/

pivot ball in my car


ball socket (p/n 9163851)
http://www.skandix.de/en/spare-parts...-fork/1019213/

[Harlard]

My fork uses a metal wire clip that holds the fork securely to the ball

[oldschoolvolvo]

Originally Posted by Harlard

My fork uses a metal wire clip that holds the fork securely to the ball

Yea, that's what I currently have...was thinking the plastic socket may hold the fork better.

[oldschoolvolvo]

My clutch fork theory was wrong...didn't end up replacing the metal spring with the plastic socket b/c I cannot fully remove the clutch fork with the trans in the car. The amount of pivot ball spacing I have prevents the fork from coming out. Also, when attempting to remove it I realized that there would have to be a large vibration to overcome the spring pressure from the slave cyl in order to let the clutch fork rattle and the vibration that I am experiencing doesn't seem large enough to do that. So, bottom line, I still don't know what is causing the rattle.

I borrowed a GoPro to watch what was happening at the axle when the vibration happens. Overall, nothing too exciting, but I was surprised the pinion moves as much as it does. I was not driving hard at all for the video.

[Uncleknucklez]

Originally Posted by oldschoolvolvo

My clutch fork theory was wrong...didn't end up replacing the metal spring with the plastic socket b/c I cannot fully remove the clutch fork with the trans in the car. The amount of pivot ball spacing I have prevents the fork from coming out. Also, when attempting to remove it I realized that there would have to be a large vibration to overcome the spring pressure from the slave cyl in order to let the clutch fork rattle and the vibration that I am experiencing doesn't seem large enough to do that. So, bottom line, I still don't know what is causing the rattle.

I borrowed a GoPro to watch what was happening at the axle when the vibration happens. Overall, nothing too exciting, but I was surprised the pinion moves as much as it does. I was not driving hard at all for the video.

Mine makes a similar sound at 2700 to 2500 rpm. I'm living with it for now. I'm on my second trans tailshaft (once the bushing spins in the tailshaft it's almost impossible to keep it from happening again), third output bushing, and second driveline balance job. I'm sick of chasing the noises and vibes in my setup. Frustrating.

[Harlard]

What was your procedure for setting pinion angle?
What is the rear u-joint angle? Should not be more than 3.5 degrees. https://www.hurst-drivelines.com/fil...roc_111606.pdf

Are the front and rear u-joints in phase? http://www.behlingracing.com/behling...-installation/

Usually you will want it 1 degree down from parallel compared the transmission's thrust centerline. Conversely, you could switch to a two-piece setup.

Hope this helps

[oldschoolvolvo]

Originally Posted by Uncleknucklez

Mine makes a similar sound at 2700 to 2500 rpm. I'm living with it for now. I'm on my second trans tailshaft (once the bushing spins in the tailshaft it's almost impossible to keep it from happening again), third output bushing, and second driveline balance job. I'm sick of chasing the noises and vibes in my setup. Frustrating.

Yea, I hear ya...frustrating not knowing the source of the issues.

Originally Posted by Harlard

What was your procedure for setting pinion angle?
What is the rear u-joint angle? Should not be more than 3.5 degrees. https://www.hurst-drivelines.com/fil...roc_111606.pdf

Are the front and rear u-joints in phase? http://www.behlingracing.com/behling...-installation/

Usually you will want it 1 degree down from parallel compared the transmission's thrust centerline. Conversely, you could switch to a two-piece setup.

Hope this helps

Thanks for the info.

1) I set the pinion angle with an iPhone level app within ~0.5* of the trans angle, measured at the u-joints.

2) I need to check the actual u-joint angle and adjust if needed.

3) U-joints are in phase (unmodified Mustang driveshaft).

4) I will adjust the pinion to 1* nose-down along with adjusting #2.

5) I'm willing to go this route if needed.

[oldschoolvolvo]

After checking the driveshaft angles, I needed to make a slight adjustment to the torque rods to bring the pinion 1* nose down which also brought the u-joint angle at the transmission slightly below 3.5*. This change may have made a very slight reduction in the rattle, it is hard to say, but the rattle is still there.

Another question...how much "free play" should the driveshaft/pinion have when the trans is in neutral and the parking brake is on?

[Uncleknucklez]

Originally Posted by oldschoolvolvo

After checking the driveshaft angles, I needed to make a slight adjustment to the torque rods to bring the pinion 1* nose down which also brought the u-joint angle at the transmission slightly below 3.5*. This change may have made a very slight reduction in the rattle, it is hard to say, but the rattle is still there.

Another question...how much "free play" should the driveshaft/pinion have when the trans is in neutral and the parking brake is on?

Mine has that much movement, I wouldn't worry about it. It also sounds identical. Lol.

One of my concerns with this setup, as illustrated in your video, there should only be about 3/4" of the slip joint showing. I think that has something to do with the vibes personally. My plan of attack currently is to cut 3/4" out of the control arms, set pinion angle, measure for a new drive shaft, and then slap it all back together with a custom DS. And pray that takes care of things.

[oldschoolvolvo]

Good news and bad news...

Good news; my T5 decel rattle has been reduced significantly, but bad news; not via the method I had hoped. In other words, I spent some $ and had a 240 2pc driveshaft shortened and balanced and had an Aerostar dampened slip yoke installed along with a Spicer 210084-2X center carrier trimmed to fit the 240 tunnel in the stock location, but this did not resolve the vibration issue like I had hoped. Instead it introduced a strong low frequency vibration/resonance that made the car painful to drive above ~40mph. It sounded like when you are driving with one window open and the cabin starts to resonate. I tried shimming the trans, etc to fine tune the u-joint angles, but no change. Objectively it should have worked fine and I am puzzled as to why it didn't work as intended. Obviously I did something wrong...just not sure what, however…

With new u-joints in the Mustang 1pc driveshaft and thoroughly greased slip yoke splines, the decel rattle is all but gone. I wish I would have tried this before spending the $ for the 2pc modification. Unfortunately I can't pinpoint what item made the change b/c I changed a few things at once, so it could have been the transmission angle adjustment (doubtful b/c I spent a lot of time adjusting angles before this), the new u-joints or simply greasing the slip yoke splines (for some reason I don't think I greased the splines when I originally installed the 1pc shaft…).

In summary, the car is driveable again but I'm annoyed I wasted $ on a 2pc driveshaft and I'm tired of messing with the driveline. #projectcarlife

[LC4CARL]

Great write up. In such life situations I "try" to take the perspective that the failed and the successful efforts (expenditures) were just part of a process that ultimately led to the solution. Hind sight is a bummer sometimes.

Sweet ride.

[Harlard]

How's radial play at the slip yoke?

[oldschoolvolvo]

Originally Posted by LC4CARL

Great write up. In such life situations I "try" to take the perspective that the failed and the successful efforts (expenditures) were just part of a process that ultimately led to the solution. Hind sight is a bummer sometimes.

Sweet ride.

Thanks. Yea I'm chalking it up to experimentation at this point.

Originally Posted by Harlard

How's radial play at the slip yoke?

I haven't put a dial indicator on it, but I can force the slip yoke up and down a small amount by hand. I'm assuming "zero" play is the target?

[Harlard]

correct

[Uncleknucklez]

Originally Posted by Harlard

How's radial play at the slip yoke?

Originally Posted by oldschoolvolvo

Thanks. Yea I'm chalking it up to experimentation at this point.



I haven't put a dial indicator on it, but I can force the slip yoke up and down a small amount by hand. I'm assuming "zero" play is the target?

Originally Posted by Harlard

correct

I finally quieted my vibrations enough to live with it. Mine ended up being a sketchy DS adapter. Now that everything (tailshaft housing, bushing, slip joint, u joints) is new and well lubed it is much more agreeable.

Mine has zero radial play now.

[photoman327]

Good to know! Thanks