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Bias advice needed: B23/B230 16v

Mstadt

Mstadt

New member
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Location
East Hampton, CT
First, let me preface by saying that yes, I've searched and read, and read (and read some more).

I've begun collecting a few small bits for a potential 16v engine build, with a completed goal of N/A power with enphasis on reliability and longevitiy. I've finally reached an inpass as I do not know which block is a better candidate for my needs.

Criteria:

-Carburated fuel delivery (likely using a crab style distributor cap and/or shortered distrbutor for clearance)

-As "Stock" bottom as possible. Ideally a bottom end that could receive a quick hone, new rods,rings,pistons, etc. with minimal machine work.

-M41 compatible. This is a must as clearance would be an issue.


Yes, I know this is not "NaturallyAspiratedBricks.com", but Id like to keep this motor in check with the K.I.S.S. philosophy. I also realize that forged internals may be over kill for this motor, but It'd likely help me sleep better. Please post your opinions.
 
What's the plan for carburetors? Single carb, dual carbs, or are we going to go with quad/independent carbs?

What kind of power are you seeking to make?

This would kind of be a fantasy of mine too. Given the power you seek to make with a stockish NA redblock, I'd probably go with a later B230 and save myself some precious rotational weight. You're not boosting so the stronger B23 seems like it'd be overkill.
 
What's the plan for carburetors? Single carb, dual carbs, or are we going to go with quad/independent carbs?

What kind of power are you seeking to make?

This would kind of be a fantasy of mine too. Given the power you seek to make with a stockish NA redblock, I'd probably go with a later B230 and save myself some precious rotational weight. You're not boosting so the stronger B23 seems like it'd be overkill.
 
what car do you thing this type of engine will fit into a 740 you can buy a 740 with 16v already in and running. it is a pain to fit into a 240 and 140 good luck with that all the earlier cars have even less room in the bay .why an m41 it will break with 16v.

try and find a 16v penta boat and take the engine out it is carbed already

http://www.uship.com/shipment/1985-Volvo-AQ171C-Marine-Engine-Very-Rar/585718001/

carbs are not good for reliability BTW
 
what car do you thing this type of engine will fit into a 740 you can buy a 740 with 16v already in and running. it is a pain to fit into a 240 and 140 good luck with that all the earlier cars have even less room in the bay .why an m41 it will break with 16v.

try and find a 16v penta boat and take the engine out it is carbed already

http://www.uship.com/shipment/1985-Volvo-AQ171C-Marine-Engine-Very-Rar/585718001/

carbs are not good for reliability BTW
 
burstcurse said:
[/url]

carbs are not good for reliability BTW
Click to expand...

I don't think this is true at all.. The amount of carbed 240s with B21A motors still running well despite total neglect would disprove this. Think of all the fuel pump issues with fuel injection people have for starters. Sure its easy to fix stuff like that, but then carb issues are usually simple too. Ive never heard of a carbed 240 having a fuel pump problem.
 
Mylesofsmyles said:
What's the plan for carburetors? Single carb, dual carbs, or are we going to go with quad/independent carbs?

What kind of power are you seeking to make?

This would kind of be a fantasy of mine too. Given the power you seek to make with a stockish NA redblock, I'd probably go with a later B230 and save myself some precious rotational weight. You're not boosting so the stronger B23 seems like it'd be overkill.
Click to expand...

Ill likely go with dual Weber DCOEs due to their ease of availability and parts. Ive made my own mild steel manifolds before, and linkage so this is not an optimal concern.
 
burstcurse said:
what car do you thing this type of engine will fit into a 740 you can buy a 740 with 16v already in and running. it is a pain to fit into a 240 and 140 good luck with that all the earlier cars have even less room in the bay .why an m41 it will break with 16v.

try and find a 16v penta boat and take the engine out it is carbed already

http://www.uship.com/shipment/1985-Volvo-AQ171C-Marine-Engine-Very-Rar/585718001/

carbs are not good for reliability BTW
Click to expand...

Ok.

This would be making it's way into my 142 in place of rebuilding a B20. YoshiFab has just completed a set of redblock motor mounts for the 140 series car, hence why Ive opted to use a b23/230 instead of the stock 16v block. This would also mount the engine vertically to allow me to use the M41. My car has the earlier transmission tunnel with the tractor trailer style shifter (which I'm actually fond of) and do not want to part with.

As far as your comment on carbs: I did technically ask for bias opinions, so I guess I can't complain when I dissagree. :-D
 
fidel said:
what model is this going into?

what motor do you have now, and how much more power do you want?

what is the budget?

m41 and power don't play togeter well. both a b23 and b230 will bolt right up to a m41 if the motor is mounted upright and the m41 bellhousing is used.

with the 16v head what carbs do you plan on running? there are only a couple off the shelf manifolds available, dual dcoe and dual downdraft solex. anything else will require modification or custom manifolds.

as far as the b23 vs b230

do you already have both?

unless your going for big NA power there pretty much the same. the difference in cast vs forged crank will not make a difference in your apllication as far as longevity.

b23 negitives
heavier rocipicating mass (pistons and rods are heavier than b230)
pistons are most likley negitive deck , so extra macining will be need to tighten up the quench/squish
replacment parts are becoming less available
no factory round tooth crank gear for 23mm wide belts (aftermarket upgrades are available for both b23 and b230)

b230 negitives
weak trust bearing design if its an early motor

with the b230 you can use off the shelf b234 pistons

all volvo blocks have core shift so if your going to a bigger bore diamater sonic testing is a good idea.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your reply. Carb wise I'm leaning towards dual DCOEs off the bat because I have the most experience with those from my 16v VW days.

I'm not looking for a lot of power per say, just a more peppy than my B20, and also for a good looking lump and WOW factor for the 140.
 
fidel said:
what model is this going into?

what motor do you have now, and how much more power do you want?

what is the budget?

m41 and power don't play togeter well. both a b23 and b230 will bolt right up to a m41 if the motor is mounted upright and the m41 bellhousing is used.

with the 16v head what carbs do you plan on running? there are only a couple off the shelf manifolds available, dual dcoe and dual downdraft solex. anything else will require modification or custom manifolds.

as far as the b23 vs b230

do you already have both?

unless your going for big NA power there pretty much the same. the difference in cast vs forged crank will not make a difference in your apllication as far as longevity.

b23 negitives
heavier rocipicating mass (pistons and rods are heavier than b230)
pistons are most likley negitive deck , so extra macining will be need to tighten up the quench/squish
replacment parts are becoming less available
no factory round tooth crank gear for 23mm wide belts (aftermarket upgrades are available for both b23 and b230)

b230 negitives
weak trust bearing design if its an early motor

with the b230 you can use off the shelf b234 pistons

all volvo blocks have core shift so if your going to a bigger bore diamater sonic testing is a good idea.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your reply. Carb wise I'm leaning towards dual DCOEs off the bat because I have the most experience with those from my 16v VW days.

I'm not looking for a lot of power per say, just a more peppy than my B20, and also for a good looking lump and WOW factor for the 140.
 
swiggy said:
I don't think this is true at all.. The amount of carbed 240s with B21A motors still running well despite total neglect would disprove this. Think of all the fuel pump issues with fuel injection people have for starters. Sure its easy to fix stuff like that, but then carb issues are usually simple too. Ive never heard of a carbed 240 having a fuel pump problem.
Click to expand...


Oh no way man i haz 2 x 45 DCOEs w/38 venturis on my old Saab V4 (1730 or 1886 or now 1965cc) and I have to go out every 3-4 years and give the throttle stops a 1/4 turn, mang! How can you call that reliable?
And with the 310/312 degree cam I have to turn the idle up to 1000 to get it to idle smoothly...

Oh i wash i wasn't stick in the 1970s (sniffle)
 
Mstadt said:
Thank you for your reply. Carb wise I'm leaning towards dual DCOEs off the bat because I have the most experience with those from my 16v VW days.

I'm not looking for a lot of power per say, just a more peppy than my B20, and also for a good looking lump and WOW factor for the 140.
Click to expand...

Something like this:
JamesVolvo005.jpg
[/IMG]

This is the key to a fun motor:
Cams with real lumps on them:
JamesVolvo003.jpg
[/IMG]
 
Mstadt said:
Thank you for your reply. Carb wise I'm leaning towards dual DCOEs off the bat because I have the most experience with those from my 16v VW days.

I'm not looking for a lot of power per say, just a more peppy than my B20, and also for a good looking lump and WOW factor for the 140.
Click to expand...

what b20 a/b/f/e ? if your looking for more pep, the b20 can be made to put out alot more than factory did. its not uncomom to get them in the 140-160 range on dcoes, with more compression and cam. full blown race motors can be in the 200hp range. nothing sounds as cool as a high compresion push rod motor at 8k with open headers:)

with the transmision you might be able to use a top shifter location t5 ( s10, or others) since you have the top shifter tunnel in your 140.
a t5 will be more reliable than a m41 especially if your going to trow more power tru it.
 
if i get yhe 142 ime after? i was thinking t4/hilux auto{its an auto} because it has a weight advantage. i like the carbs idea and i dissagree that the m41 will break! as ive run 160 hp b23 through one noprobs{dd} altho if it dose go itll cost a bomb to fix if you can find the parts. if you want to doit on the cheap get an 88/91 small rod block and fit b23 rods and turbo pistons and definitly fit a 16lb flywheel, as itl make it much more fun to drive and save the old m41 from an early retirement!!!
 
fidel said:
what b20 a/b/f/e ? if your looking for more pep, the b20 can be made to put out alot more than factory did. its not uncomom to get them in the 140-160 range on dcoes, with more compression and cam. full blown race motors can be in the 200hp range. nothing sounds as cool as a high compresion push rod motor at 8k with open headers:)

with the transmision you might be able to use a top shifter location t5 ( s10, or others) since you have the top shifter tunnel in your 140.
a t5 will be more reliable than a m41 especially if your going to trow more power tru it.
Click to expand...

Excellent points--as usual. Big bore B20, some valves and some valve unshrouding and especially individual throttles via ITBs or carbies and a B20 can be loads of fun--and not just screaming but doubling the torque too.

And +1000 on the S-10 Borg Warner T5. there's trillions of the things out there so finding one for $50-100 tops shopuld be a snap---then stick in a 2.95 gearset for $380 new..
THEN axle ratios of 4,3 are not just do-able but good. even 4.56 and with the 5th ratio you STILL have less rpm at cruise than stock..
1st thru 4th--RIPP!, the 5th doodle doodle along nice and calm.
 
woodywhat said:
if i get yhe 142 ime after? i was thinking t4/hilux auto{its an auto} because it has a weight advantage. i like the carbs idea and i dissagree that the m41 will break! as ive run 160 hp b23 through one noprobs{dd} altho if it dose go itll cost a bomb to fix if you can find the parts. if you want to doit on the cheap get an 88/91 small rod block and fit b23 rods and turbo pistons and definitly fit a 16lb flywheel, as itl make it much more fun to drive and save the old m41 from an early retirement!!!
Click to expand...


Woody, the B200/B230 rod journal is 49mm and wants about 0,04 to 0,05 (0.0015-0.002") clearance.
The B20, B21/B23 rod journals are 54mm, and same oil clearance..

Now there's a long list of boys whining that I'm all stuck on 20 year old technology (ironically enough that 20 years newer than the design of the motor but 'like whatever") and that everything is different now because of something they call 'new technology---which they never clarify exactly what is new--- but!
BUT!

I am going to just suggest real gentle like so that nobody gets all pissed off that there MAY be some problems maintaining proper oil pressure if you use the B23 rod on the B230 journal.

I also thing that since the oil clearance is couple of Red C**t hairs loose, I think compression might suffer a tad.
It's not as bad as it seems though cause the rod won't be dropping down the full 5mm difference i journal sizes but only half that---the difference in radius..

You will loose all squish and with that lose all quench but a thinner headgast can take care of 0,1 or 0,2 of that.

So the main problem remains lower than optimum oil pressure.
There may be some other problems but I'm sure that new technology will take care of that, like a really ampped up stereo cranked till your ears bleed will cover any of the light metallic sounds at TDC.....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................


[/gentlest of sarcasm off]
 
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